Wembley travel fiasco - FA Cup semi final 16/17 April 2022

[Shrop]

Please excuse this thought process from a non rail person, but comments would be appreciated.

As I understand it, the reason for rail closures south of Milton Keynes during the weekend of the FA Cup semi finals in mid April is mainly for work at Euston. If so, then just how hard would it be to keep the route open as far south as Wembley and turn trains round there? Of course it is the FA rather than Network Rail who are at fault for the potential travel fiasco that closing the WCML will lead to, but since there are literally tens of thousands of passengers all wanting to travel along the same route, this would normally be an absolute godsend for any public transport company.

Conversely, thousands of people trying to find an alternative rail route home to Liverpool and Manchester late in the evening without using the WCML is a potential massive headache for both them and for all rail companies who may have to cater for them, and what when many thousands all travel by road instead? Just imagine the scenes at the service stations on the motorways, and the added congestion on the roads. And this is assuming the Highways Agency don’t close the M1 for essential repairs at the same time.

The number who could want to travel by rail to Wembley from EACH of Manchester and Liverpool for the semi final may well be more than arrive into Euston from every single point of origin during a normal weekday morning peak period. That’s a massive potential for a lot of revenue, which in fairness to the fans and also to Network Rail and TOCs, ought to be subsidised by the FA from the huge TV money that has clearly led them to not care about causing this crazy situation.

This should be a big enough deal for Government to step in and force some sense into the situation. What does anyone think?

 

[seagull]

I would think that the main problem would lie in the fact that all terminating services would most likely have to occupy the Up Slow platform while emptied and checked for stray passengers, either to restart from there in the Down direction (heading north) which is possible with the signalling, or to proceed onto the Relief lines to reverse (of which some drivers do not have route knowledge, I understand) - either options severely limit capacity and throughput. There may also be the problems of accessibility, undercover waiting areas, and coach parking, I don't know much about the station environs of Wembley.
Whereas Milton Keynes is a tried and tested option with some platforms useable in both directions and an easy shunt move for those that aren't, plus loads of space for the coach transport and for passengers to wait undercover.

 

[Lewlew]

Watford Junction also has works. They're putting the junction back in to the north of the station.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The Football Association are not wholly blameless here. In years gone by, the FA Cup semi final draw would be made, and neutral stadiums selected which would be in reasonable geographical proximity to the participating clubs. Now it's Wembley Stadium regardless.

 

[43096]

The Football Association are not wholly blameless here. In years gone by, the FA Cup semi final draw would be made, and neutral stadiums selected which would be in reasonable geographical proximity to the participating clubs. Now it's Wembley Stadium regardless.

The simple solution is to switch this tie to Old Trafford.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Watford Junction also has works. They're putting the junction back in to the north of the station.

That makes sense.

During previous engineering works a limited VWC/AWC service has run as far as Harrow and Wealdstone, terminating there for tube connections to London. It's a shame that's not an option now.

That said, the FA are to blame. The railway engineering schedule was known before the games were scheduled, and it was always pretty likely one of Liverpool/Everton/Man City/Man Utd would make it to an FA Cup semi final.

 

[patrick.hearn3]

The mayors' suggestion (presumably for Old Trafford) seems eminently sensible. They claim they 'understood the engineering works had "been scheduled since 2019 and that the FA was explicably [sic] made aware of them last autumn".'

Assuming it's Wembley, the date and time aren't yet confirmed so it would make it difficult to roster staff this late? It's possible the TV schedulers will pick a teatime kick off. Add in extra time and - were the line to have been open - you'd have enormous pressure to get everyone home.

I recall that in previous works WC ran 15 car 221s from Birmingham diverted down the Chiltern line, and into Euston.

 

[Bertie the bus]

This should be a big enough deal for Government to step in and force some sense into the situation. What does anyone think?

My thoughts are this sort of thing happens far too often when there are major football matches at Wembley. It’s fine saying the FA were told in 2019 but what are they supposed to do with that information, say OK, we’ll not bother with an FA Cup competition in 2021/2022?

Why would the WCML be closed when they knew FA Cup semi finals are taking place that weekend? There are other weekends.

 

[Shrop]

The simple solution is to switch this tie to Old Trafford.

It certainly would make a lot of sense.

Also, there's talk about reducing speed limits in order to save using so much fuel, so how can this possibly square with sending the best part of 100,000 people on a round trip of over 300 miles further than they would need to travel if it was at Old Trafford? It's Government that will make the decision about speed limits to address the fact that we can no longer get fuel from Russia, surely a Government that took this seriously should use a high profile game like this to set an example of cutting down on journeys?

 

[yorkie]

On this occasion, it makes sense to hold the match somewhere like Manchester.

 

[Bertie the bus]

It certainly would make a lot of sense.

Also, there's talk about reducing speed limits in order to save using so much fuel, so how can this possibly square with sending the best part of 100,000 people on a round trip of over 300 miles further than they would need to travel if it was at Old Trafford? It's Government that will make the decision about speed limits to address the fact that we can no longer get fuel from Russia, surely a Government that took this seriously should use a high profile game like this to set an example of cutting down on journeys?

The semi-finals are at Wembley to help pay for the rebuilding of the stadium. It isn't for governments to dictate where football matches are played. Many of us have had quite enough of the government dictating every aspect of our lives after the last 2 years and nobody should want this to continue indefinitely.

 

[DelayRepay]

That said, the FA are to blame. The railway engineering schedule was known before the games were scheduled, and it was always pretty likely one of Liverpool/Everton/Man City/Man Utd would make it to an FA Cup semi final.

If it had been Man Utd, Wembley would be ideal given most of their supporters live in London

But I agree this is madness. Even without the engineering works, it would be chaos and would be far better to hold the semi finals at a venue which is easily accessible for fans of both teams.

The semi-finals are at Wembley to help pay for the rebuilding of the stadium. It isn't for governments to dictate where football matches are played. Many of us have had quite enough of the government dictating every aspect of our lives after the last 2 years and nobody should want this to continue indefinitely.

I agree the government shouldn't dictate where football matches are played - they shouldn't need to as the FA should use common sense.

 

[Falcon1200]

My thoughts are this sort of thing happens far too often when there are major football matches at Wembley. It’s fine saying the FA were told in 2019 but what are they supposed to do with that information, say OK, we’ll not bother with an FA Cup competition in 2021/2022?

No, all they had to do is accept that the location of the semi-finals may be moved depending on who qualifies; Regardless of the rail issue, sending thousands of supporters hundreds of miles, instead of using a much closer ground, is economic (for the supporters, not the FA) and environmental madness, in fact I'm surprised the latter issue is not given far greater prominence in today's world.

 

[robbob700]

After the Wembley semi in 1994 the FA declared there would be no more Wembley semi-finals barring ‘exceptional circumstances’ as it diluted the magic of playing at Wembley in the final. It appears that money has changed that viewpoint.

 

[gg1]

It’s fine saying the FA were told in 2019 but what are they supposed to do with that information, say OK, we’ll not bother with an FA Cup competition in 2021/2022?

You answered your own question in the same post:

There are other weekends.

With 3 years notice there's absolutely no reason the FA couldn't have scheduled the semi-finals to be on a different weekend.

 

[DarloRich]

Football fans are well sued to getting messed about. The coach hire companies will do well that weekend.

( the semis shouldn't be at Wembley - but, hey, the FA couldn't organise a pi$$ up in a brewery)

 

[Cheshire Scot]

My thoughts are this sort of thing happens far too often when there are major football matches at Wembley. It’s fine saying the FA were told in 2019 but what are they supposed to do with that information, say OK, we’ll not bother with an FA Cup competition in 2021/2022?

My question would be why did the FA pick that particular weekend when they were made aware in 2019 of the WCML closure

Why would the WCML be closed when they knew FA Cup semi finals are taking place that weekend? There are other weekends.

Network Rail would not know what weekend would subsequently picked for the semi finals when they started planning for the works in 2019.

The blame for this lies fully with the FA.

hey, the FA couldn't organise a pi$$ up in a brewery)

That is it in a nutshell.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Tbh I think the discussion about if the semis should be at Wembley or not is somewhat missing the point. The same situation could have happened with the final.

Maybe this is my biased view as a football fan because I am impacted by it more, but it does seem football fans especially are the ones who seem to be messed around the most when it comes to disruption on the railways when there are major events going on. Other events like Cheltenham Races, Glastonbury festival or even just regular Wales Rugby matches in Cardiff seem to get a huge amount of effort and collaboration from the ToC's and network rail to make sure extra services can be laid on and planned disruption limited. Yet as soon as its a round ball instead, that effort just isn't there. Hell for the Welsh Rugby example GWR have specifically trained staff and route cleared stock to provide extra services (I'm not saying they were wrong to do so, but it does show how the different events are catered to in regards to transport).

 

[DarloRich]

That is it in a nutshell.

In fairness: I don't know if they could organise a brewery based party. They certainly don't even want to try!

My question would be why did the FA pick that particular weekend when they were made aware in 2019 of the WCML closure

Because:

• they don't care
• fans are so low on thier agenda as to be microscopic
• they know enough people will swallow what they pump out blaming NR and Avanti

 

[Drogba11CFC]

If they moved the semis, you can guarantee the local RMT would pencil those routes in for strike action.

 

[DarloRich]

People will just have to do it the old fashioned way: go on the supporters coach.

Real fans will get to the match train or no train. Plastics will whine and moan.

 

[sonic2009]

You could give one argument, that how could anyone predict that 2 North West based clubs would reach the semi finals this year? We could of had anyone from across the country in the semis.

 

[Howardh]

It's not just football fans that are put out, but the general public as a whole who want to move around. Never understood this Wembley thing for the semis, it's only to pay for the ground rebuild and the debentures get their seat?

 

[Shrop]

The semi-finals are at Wembley to help pay for the rebuilding of the stadium. It isn't for governments to dictate where football matches are played. Many of us have had quite enough of the government dictating every aspect of our lives after the last 2 years and nobody should want this to continue indefinitely.

This sounds a bit like bitterness over Covid control. The Government have NOT dictated every aspect of our lives for the last 2 years, they just have a tendency to interfere where it's not needed, whilst simultaneously keeping their heads in the sand on more important issues. To reiterate, influencing the setting of an example on reducing journeys would be a good thing to do for the environment, and this is the perfect high profile opportunity.

 

[WelshBluebird]

People will just have to do it the old fashioned way: go on the supporters coach.

Real fans will get to the match train or no train. Plastics will whine and moan.

Or back in the real world, the people complaining are real fans and are complaining because it will make their trip more difficult / less fun than what it would have otherwise been. Those same people will still get the supporters coach. But it doesn't mean they have to shut up about the issue, especially as for a lot of fans in this situation they would possibly want to take the chance to have a general trip to London, not just go for the match.

 

[Horizon22]

Mods feel free to move but thought this was the best place.

Something caught my eye on the BBC this afternoon: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/60842200

The FA Cup semi-final between Liverpool and Manchester City should be moved from Wembley, say the mayors of both cities.

The game is scheduled to take place on the weekend of 16 and 17 April. However, engineering works mean no trains are running from either city to or from London from 15 to 18 April.

Andy Burnham, the mayor of Greater Manchester, and Liverpool mayor Steve Rotheram both say the game needs to be at a "more accessible stadium".

In a joint letter to the Football Association, Mr Burnham and Mr Rotheram said: "Without quick, direct trains, many people will be left with no option but to drive, fly, make overly complex rail journeys or book overnight accommodation.

This would be an interesting step to take, as both teams are northern of course and so would make sense, but sets an interesting precedent - has this happened much before in the past? They do go onto acknowledge that football is planned less in advance than the railways (though of course the FA cup is always hard to plan around due to the draw)

The pair said they understood the engineering works had "been scheduled since 2019 and that the FA was explicably made aware of them last autumn".

Prior to the letter, the FA said it was liaising with both clubs and working with Network Rail and National Express to find a solution "so that supporters of both teams are able to travel to and from the fixture with as minimal disruption as possible".

Out of interest, what works are taking place over the 15-18th April?

 

[Mike99]

Hey, I've had a great idea come into my head, this will make it fairer for all the fans of the four teams. What about moving the Crystal Palace v Chelsea semi final to Old Trafford and leave the Manchester United v Liverpool game at Wembley. All four groups of supporters can then have a nice day out up and down the country on replacement bus services and trains, and if the kick offs are timed accordingly they could all meet up at Milton Keynes Central swapping from Coach to Train and reverse. Simple alternative to me really. I'll now get me coat, leave the room and have a lie down.

 

[62484GlenLyon]

The semi-finals used to be played at a neutral ground that was logical for the two teams involved. Years ago, the tie in question here would have probably have been played at either Old Trafford or Hillsborough. Villa Park was a favourite venue as well, especially when southern clubs were involved in the semi-final. The obvious move this year would be to play it at Old Trafford. Madness to expect 1000s of Liverpool and City fans to trek to London even if trains were running normally, let alone when WCML is shut.

 

[Horizon22]

The semi-finals used to be played at a neutral ground that was logical for the two teams involved. Years ago, the tie in question here would have probably have been played at either Old Trafford or Hillsborough. Villa Park was a favourite venue as well, especially when southern clubs were involved in the semi-final. The obvious move this year would be to play it at Old Trafford. Madness to expect 1000s of Liverpool and City fans to trek to London even if trains were running normally, let alone when WCML is shut.

Generally that neutral ground was Wembley though wasn't it? I appreciate during the rebuilding work it went all around the country and I am aware Villa Park has historically been a favourite too.

 

[zwk500]

Generally that neutral ground was Wembley though wasn't it? I appreciate during the rebuilding work it went all around the country and I am aware Villa Park has historically been a favourite too.

Wembley has only been the preferred neutral ground since the new one opened. Prior to that only a handful of semi-finals had been played there.

Old Trafford would be the most obvious answer, although Man Utd are scheduled to play Norwich at home on the Saturday so the semi final would need to be on the Sunday which may stretch staffing and policing resources.