West Coast Main Line formations in loco-hauled days

[AY1975]

I seem to recall that in British Rail days, particularly before fixed formation sets became the norm (so probably until about the mid to late 1980s) trains on the West Coast Main Line, especially Euston to Liverpool, Manchester and Glasgow trains, were often formed of a mixture of Mark 2s and Mark 3s in the same train. I think the Birminghams, Wolverhamptons, Shrewsburys and Holyheads were pretty much always Mark 2s apart from the buffet car and brake car, though (and so were the Blackpools until their last few years of operation).

Where a train was formed of a mixture of Mark 2s and Mark 3s, was there a set number of Mark 2s and Mark 3s that would normally be found on each train, or were they just coupled together at random? If the latter was the case, or if a Mark 2 was ever used in place of a Mark 3 (or a First Class in place of a Standard/Second Class coach, which did occasionally happen) that could potentially have caused problems with the seat reservation system.

That said, except at busy times or on trains with compulsory reservation (or shown in the timetable as reservation strongly recommended) passengers who reserved a seat were very much the exception rather than the rule in those days as there were much fewer people travelling than there are today (or at least than there were before Covid19). Also, those were the days before the internet so you had to go to a station or BR appointed travel agent to make a reservation and it was more of a faff than it is today, and there were no Advance fares (at least not as we know them today, although in the 1970s BR did offer an Advance ticket of sorts called an Economy Return that you had to book a week before the day of outward travel) so long-distance rail travel was primarily turn up and go unlike today when it is primarily book in advance.

Because of that, I would guess that in those days if someone's reserved seat in the booked rolling stock was missing it was pretty easy to simply allocate them a different seat.

There is also this now-closed thread on WCML Mark 2 formations at www.railforums.co.uk/threads/west-coast-mk2-formations.69019/

 

[randyrippley]

This is another look at your "scratch sets" theory isn't it?
As far as I could tell from riding as a passenger, the mk2/3 mixed sets were pretty much standard formations - possibly even treated as fixed formations. Seat booking was never a problem - you had to go to the station to buy a ticket, so it was a simple matter to pay the extra pound for a seat. I never had a problem with a missing seat
The only example I can think of where there was a degree of randomness (at least north of Preston) was a friday afternoon relief Euston-Glasgow which constituted a merry mix of anything that moved, including random NSE liveried mk1/2 coaches

 

[JonathanH]

Isn't some of this covered in this thread?

Did Mk2's & Mk3's ever run together?

Hi all, So essentially, as the title says, I'm trying to figure out if Mk2's of the D/E/F variety ever ran with Mk3a/b loco hauled stock? I'm aware that the early Mk2's could often be seen formed with Mk1's, and that some Mk1's were later converted to run with Mk2a etc - but I can find very...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Helvellyn]

As others have said, reservations were used a lot less back in the time period you are referring to. Coaching stock diagrams were also a let less intensive and with no fixed sets the pool of spares at depots was greater, because individual coaches went off for works attention not sets.

What was in place though was booked formations for the diagrams that a depot had for its coaches, so based on its allocations it would be fairly confident of turning out the required sets. That in turn would mean for reservation purposes things would be fairly predictable.

For example, Polmadie depot had the stock allocated to it for the CrossCountry "Scot" services:

• Cornish Scot - Glasgow/Edinburgh - Penzance;
• Devon Scot - Glasgow/Aberdeen - Plymouth;
• Wessex Scot - Glasgow/Edinburgh - Poole; and
• not named - Glasgow/Edinburgh - Paignton.

The first three had a mix of Mark 2D/2E TSOs, Mark 2D FKs or BFKs, Mark 1 RBRs and some also had Mark 1 BGs. The last ran with Mark 2C TSOs and BFKs. Polmadie knew the formations the sets ran in and made them up accordingly. If a vehicle had a defect, was due an exam or needed works attention it would be swapped out overnight when at its home depot. It was frustrating spotting them because the formations were fairly static and you were looking for that on coach that had been swapped out. But they weren't intensively used.

There are other examples of diagrammed formations, but the depot had to make up the sets using loose vehicles. Staff and systems knew what the formation should be by vehicles type and that would have been included in things like reservation systems, e.g.

• Edinburgh - Glasgow push-pull sets formed DBSO-CO-TSO-TSO-TSO
• TransPennine sets formed BG-FK-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO
• Liverpool Street - Norwich sets formed FO-BFK-FO-RBR-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-BSO

Worst case scenario with Mark 2F/Mark 3A stock might even have been that the additional seats in the Mark 3A sets were not available for reservations, e.g. seats 43-48 in the FO (one bay) and seats 65-72 in the TSO (one bay).

Fixed formations with all vehicles kept together even for works visits was brought in by 1990 by InterCity. It was recognised that it simplified things in terms of reducing the number of spare coaches. But even then there were many variations in the formations because diagrams were not intensive. Under Virgin the formations were standardised to two (Mark 3 or Mark 2F/Mark 3), coupled with more intensive use.

 

[hexagon789]

I seem to recall that in British Rail days, particularly before fixed formation sets became the norm (so probably until about the mid to late 1980s) trains on the West Coast Main Line, especially Euston to Liverpool, Manchester and Glasgow trains, were often formed of a mixture of Mark 2s and Mark 3s in the same train. I think the Birminghams, Wolverhamptons, Shrewsburys and Holyheads were pretty much always Mark 2s apart from the buffet car and brake car, though (and so were the Blackpools until their last few years of operation).

Where a train was formed of a mixture of Mark 2s and Mark 3s, was there a set number of Mark 2s and Mark 3s that would normally be found on each train, or were they just coupled together at random? If the latter was the case, or if a Mark 2 was ever used in place of a Mark 3 (or a First Class in place of a Standard/Second Class coach, which did occasionally happen) that could potentially have caused problems with the seat reservation system.

That said, except at busy times or on trains with compulsory reservation (or shown in the timetable as reservation strongly recommended) passengers who reserved a seat were very much the exception rather than the rule in those days as there were much fewer people travelling than there are today (or at least than there were before Covid19). Also, those were the days before the internet so you had to go to a station or BR appointed travel agent to make a reservation and it was more of a faff than it is today, and there were no Advance fares (at least not as we know them today, although in the 1970s BR did offer an Advance ticket of sorts called an Economy Return that you had to book a week before the day of outward travel) so long-distance rail travel was primarily turn up and go unlike today when it is primarily book in advance.

Because of that, I would guess that in those days if someone's reserved seat in the booked rolling stock was missing it was pretty easy to simply allocate them a different seat.

There is also this now-closed thread on WCML Mark 2 formations at www.railforums.co.uk/threads/west-coast-mk2-formations.69019/

There were booked formations with specific types of 'Mark' of vehicles. Post-1984 the Glasgows went from mostly Mk3 to all Mk3 except the brake van (specially maintained Mk1 BG coded NHA maintained for 110mph running). Manchester and Liverpool sets were more of a mix of Mk2f and 3a/b with some 2d and either Mk3a or Mk1 catering cars depending on the service - but again there were specific formations designed to give certain seating capacities on particular workings.

Birmingham/Wolverhampton services were all Mk2 seating vehicles but until the late-1980s Mk1 buffets.

I can give various examples of bookdd formations you've a specific year in mind, 1986 is particularly interesting I think as while the Glasgows are now all Mk3, you have good mixtures of Mk2 and Mk3 (the latter including the then new 3b variety) on Liverpool/Manchester/Blackpool workings and even some variations within the Euston-Birmingham-Wolverhampton Mk2 sets.


Obviously what the carriage working books list and what actually ran in service could differ but generally similar vehicles would replace any removed from sets for whatever reason.

 

[hexagon789]

Fixed formations with all vehicles kept together even for works visits was brought in by 1990 by InterCity. It was recognised that it simplified things in terms of reducing the number of spare coaches. But even then there were many variations in the formations because diagrams were not intensive. Under Virgin the formations were standardised to two (Mark 3 or Mark 2F/Mark 3), coupled with more intensive use.

Even within that standardisation, there were still some variations within Mk3 or Mk2f sets in terms of the number of FOs or TSOs etc, even Virgin had 3 'standard' Mk3 formations until the early 2000s when the 390s started to replace them.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

When did trains formed completely of MK1 stock end? Or non-air conditioned MK 2 coaches?

Did class 85s operate passenger services out of Euston until their retirement?

 

[hexagon789]

When did trains formed completely of MK1 stock end? Or non-air conditioned MK 2 coaches?

Did class 85s operate passenger services out of Euston until their retirement?

I think the Northampton 'cobblers' would be the last Mk1 sets out of Euston. As for Mk2 pressure vents, the odd Mk2c still turned up in the Euston-Stranraer day train until it withdrawal so that would be about 1990/1 I think.

 

[Snow1964]

When did trains formed completely of MK1 stock end? Or non-air conditioned MK 2 coaches?

Did class 85s operate passenger services out of Euston until their retirement?

I think one the first motor shows at the then new NEC in late 1970s was served by all sorts of relief trains, giving a train about every 5-10 minutes for exhibition opening times. From memory there were lots of Mark1 and early mk2 sets with class 85s, maybe even some class 81s

 

[randyrippley]

When did trains formed completely of MK1 stock end? Or non-air conditioned MK 2 coaches?

Did class 85s operate passenger services out of Euston until their retirement?

Toward the end at Lancaster we only saw 85s on cross-country or Lancashire-Scotland services, later replaced by 81

 

[Mag_seven]

Did class 85s operate passenger services out of Euston until their retirement?

Towards the end of their retirement the operational examples were all reclassified as Class 85/1 and restricted to freight but I wouldn't be surprised if the odd one (Class 85/1) ended up on a passenger working.

 

[randyrippley]

Towards the end of their retirement the operational examples were all reclassified as Class 85/1 and restricted to freight but I wouldn't be surprised if the odd one (Class 85/1) ended up on a passenger working.

Would have been speed restricted if they did - part of the change was a switch to cheaper less capable brake linings

 

[87015]

Would have been speed restricted if they did - part of the change was a switch to cheaper less capable brake linings

Loads worked. Speed and EH restriction appeared largely to be on paper in reality!

 

[AY1975]

When did trains formed completely of MK1 stock end? Or non-air conditioned MK 2 coaches?

I seem to remember as late as about 1991 travelling on a Mark 2C TSO from Euston to Manchester - I think it might have been the seated portion of the Manchester/Liverpool Sleeper (which I think was withdrawn at the end of that year's summer timetable).

 

[AY1975]

In the "Confessions of a Trainspotter" episode of TV series Great Railway Journeys of the World with Michael Palin at

, first aired in 1980, at the start of the journey he travels on what I think is a Euston-Manchester. You see him getting into a Mark 3 at Euston, but you then see him travelling on a Mark 2F, so he must have walked through to a different coach (maybe the next coach) from the one where he boarded.

 

[alistairlees]

In the "Confessions of a Trainspotter" episode of TV series Great Railway Journeys of the World with Michael Palin at

, first aired in 1980, at the start of the journey he travels on what I think is a Euston-Manchester. You see him getting into a Mark 3 at Euston, but you then see him travelling on a Mark 2F, so he must have walked through to a different coach (maybe the next coach) from the one where he boarded.

That’s a great video. Especially the pipe smoking HST driver!

 

[AY1975]

That’s a great video. Especially the pipe smoking HST driver!

Yes, and you also see a typical mixed Mark 2/Mark 3 set of that period a few minutes after he gets on the Euston-Manchester train. Also of interest is his conversation with the buffet stewardess who comes round serving tea and coffee. She says after arrival at Manchester the train will then return to London and then do a Liverpool service.

 

[WesternLancer]

In the "Confessions of a Trainspotter" episode of TV series Great Railway Journeys of the World with Michael Palin at

, first aired in 1980, at the start of the journey he travels on what I think is a Euston-Manchester. You see him getting into a Mark 3 at Euston, but you then see him travelling on a Mark 2F, so he must have walked through to a different coach (maybe the next coach) from the one where he boarded.

Think another thread not long ago posted extracts from his diary that indicated that sequences were shot on different days / different trains in fact - so may not simply be a question of him walking thu the train - tho in that case it may have been.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

On Holyhead services, it was common at weekends, particularly in the summer, for Mk3 sets normally allocated to Manchester/Liverpool services to work the trains.
Such sets could also be found on Cross Country services from the north-west to Devon and Cornwall.

 

[hexagon789]

In the "Confessions of a Trainspotter" episode of TV series Great Railway Journeys of the World with Michael Palin at

, first aired in 1980, at the start of the journey he travels on what I think is a Euston-Manchester. You see him getting into a Mark 3 at Euston, but you then see him travelling on a Mark 2F, so he must have walked through to a different coach (maybe the next coach) from the one where he boarded.

No, as discussed on another forum the continuity is quite variable in that programme.

In actual fact in 1980 sets were booked as all Mk2f or all Mk3a seating vehicles it wasn't until about 1982 that sets were booked for a mixture and even then usually only the odd vehicle. Then you get to 1985 when lots of sets except the Glasgow and Birmingham/Wolverhampton were very mixed. Then 1988/9 when sets became all 2f or all Mk3a both with Mk3a RFM.

 

[hexagon789]

On Holyhead services, it was common at weekends, particularly in the summer, for Mk3 sets normally allocated to Manchester/Liverpool services to work the trains.
Such sets could also be found on Cross Country services from the north-west to Devon and Cornwall.

There was a Milton Keynes-Penzance and a Liverpool-Paignton using WCML Pullman sets in the mid/late-1980s

 

[mmh]

On Holyhead services, it was common at weekends, particularly in the summer, for Mk3 sets normally allocated to Manchester/Liverpool services to work the trains.
Such sets could also be found on Cross Country services from the north-west to Devon and Cornwall.

That's my recollection too, in the late 80s the Holyhead trains were usually Mk3s, although I'll have seen far more at the weekends than in the week.

 

[midland1]

Back in the late 1930s the LMS used their Coronation Scot stock on Saturdays in the summer on a Euston Llandudno working!

 

[Bevan Price]

Loads worked. Speed and EH restriction appeared largely to be on paper in reality!

It was a sort of spoilt brat syndrome .
Freight sector - "That's my train / toy / ball" --- "YOU can't play with / use it".
Even some 90s had the ETH isolated, but still found their way onto passenger services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There was a Milton Keynes-Penzance and a Liverpool-Paignton using WCML Pullman sets in the mid/late-1980s

What route did that run?

 

[hexagon789]

What route did that run?

I assume the same as CrossCountry services for the Liverpool; not sure about the Milton Keynes. There were also some from Manchester but using Mk2 sets.

 

[hexagon789]

It was a sort of spoilt brat syndrome .
Freight sector - "That's my train / toy / ball" --- "YOU can't play with / use it".
Even some 90s had the ETH isolated, but still found their way onto passenger services.

It seemed quite common in the summer for no-heat 37s to deputise on Kyle workings in the early 1990s

 

[CW2]

It was a sort of spoilt brat syndrome .
Freight sector - "That's my train / toy / ball" --- "YOU can't play with / use it".
Even some 90s had the ETH isolated, but still found their way onto passenger services.

I was a GP Relief Controller in Glasgow in the mid - late 80s and frequently worked on the Glasgow / Mossend traction job.
At that time the 81s were allocated to Shields depot, and the 85s to Crewe. The 84s had long been withdrawn, and a handful of 82s / 83s were retained for ECS duties Euston - Willesden (so we never saw them in Scotland).
Various 81s and 85s were limited to 80 mph based primarily on their mechanical condition. It was accepted that these fleets had a limited shelf life, so it made sense to restrict them to lighter, slower duties if possible. At that time, some of the 81s and 85s retained 100mph capability. Occasionally there would be a need for an 80 mph loco to work a daytime 100mph class 1 passenger service. The protocol for this was that the Traction Controller had to request permission from the Maintenance Controller, and ensure the event was correctly written up in the daily log. This procedure prevented it becoming commonplace. I recall one occasion when I wanted to us a particular 80 mph class 81 out of Glasgow Central on a passenger service. The maintenance controller refused to sanction it running faster than 80 mph, so I had to undertake a complicated loco swap with Mossend to get that 85 onto a southbound Speedlink service, and produce a different Roarer at Glasgow Central for the passenger service - one which was capable of 100mph running.
Use of 81s and 85s on ovenight services - whcih were more loosely timed and therefore didn't require sustained 100mph operation, was still commonplace. Nevertheless the same protocols applied regarding using the 80mph locos, so they were rare even on the overnights.
Through some quirk of the diagramming, the 13:10 Glasgow - Euston was always tricky to produce a 110mph loco for, and occasionally produced an 81 or 85 on 110mph timings. On Saturday 08/11/86 I had 85030 throughout from Glasgow to Euston on this service, arriving just 10 minutes late at Euston after adverse signals south of Rugby. (The shift chageover time in Glasgow Control was normally 14:00, but 13:00 on a Saturday, so that was the only day I could do the train).

 

[Fleetwood Boy]

I was a GP Relief Controller in Glasgow in the mid - late 80s and frequently worked on the Glasgow / Mossend traction job.
At that time the 81s were allocated to Shields depot, and the 85s to Crewe. The 84s had long been withdrawn, and a handful of 82s / 83s were retained for ECS duties Euston - Willesden (so we never saw them in Scotland).
Various 81s and 85s were limited to 80 mph based primarily on their mechanical condition. It was accepted that these fleets had a limited shelf life, so it made sense to restrict them to lighter, slower duties if possible. At that time, some of the 81s and 85s retained 100mph capability. Occasionally there would be a need for an 80 mph loco to work a daytime 100mph class 1 passenger service. The protocol for this was that the Traction Controller had to request permission from the Maintenance Controller, and ensure the event was correctly written up in the daily log. This procedure prevented it becoming commonplace. I recall one occasion when I wanted to us a particular 80 mph class 81 out of Glasgow Central on a passenger service. The maintenance controller refused to sanction it running faster than 80 mph, so I had to undertake a complicated loco swap with Mossend to get that 85 onto a southbound Speedlink service, and produce a different Roarer at Glasgow Central for the passenger service - one which was capable of 100mph running.
Use of 81s and 85s on ovenight services - whcih were more loosely timed and therefore didn't require sustained 100mph operation, was still commonplace. Nevertheless the same protocols applied regarding using the 80mph locos, so they were rare even on the overnights.
Through some quirk of the diagramming, the 13:10 Glasgow - Euston was always tricky to produce a 110mph loco for, and occasionally produced an 81 or 85 on 110mph timings. On Saturday 08/11/86 I had 85030 throughout from Glasgow to Euston on this service, arriving just 10 minutes late at Euston after adverse signals south of Rugby. (The shift chageover time in Glasgow Control was normally 14:00, but 13:00 on a Saturday, so that was the only day I could do the train).

Think I’ve told the story before, but I well remember catching a relief to the 0910 Royal Scot from Glasgow one Fair Saturday. Relief was an 85 on a rake of Mark 1s, compared to the Scot which was an 87. Relief left 8 minutes later, and caught the Scot up twice, once by Lockerbie and again outside Preston. Brought to a stand outside Carlisle and Preston waiting for a platform. Was an interesting experience at speed in the Mark 1s.

 

[hexagon789]

I was a GP Relief Controller in Glasgow in the mid - late 80s and frequently worked on the Glasgow / Mossend traction job.
At that time the 81s were allocated to Shields depot, and the 85s to Crewe. The 84s had long been withdrawn, and a handful of 82s / 83s were retained for ECS duties Euston - Willesden (so we never saw them in Scotland).
Various 81s and 85s were limited to 80 mph based primarily on their mechanical condition. It was accepted that these fleets had a limited shelf life, so it made sense to restrict them to lighter, slower duties if possible. At that time, some of the 81s and 85s retained 100mph capability. Occasionally there would be a need for an 80 mph loco to work a daytime 100mph class 1 passenger service. The protocol for this was that the Traction Controller had to request permission from the Maintenance Controller, and ensure the event was correctly written up in the daily log. This procedure prevented it becoming commonplace. I recall one occasion when I wanted to us a particular 80 mph class 81 out of Glasgow Central on a passenger service. The maintenance controller refused to sanction it running faster than 80 mph, so I had to undertake a complicated loco swap with Mossend to get that 85 onto a southbound Speedlink service, and produce a different Roarer at Glasgow Central for the passenger service - one which was capable of 100mph running.
Use of 81s and 85s on ovenight services - whcih were more loosely timed and therefore didn't require sustained 100mph operation, was still commonplace. Nevertheless the same protocols applied regarding using the 80mph locos, so they were rare even on the overnights.
Through some quirk of the diagramming, the 13:10 Glasgow - Euston was always tricky to produce a 110mph loco for, and occasionally produced an 81 or 85 on 110mph timings. On Saturday 08/11/86 I had 85030 throughout from Glasgow to Euston on this service, arriving just 10 minutes late at Euston after adverse signals south of Rugby. (The shift chageover time in Glasgow Control was normally 14:00, but 13:00 on a Saturday, so that was the only day I could do the train).

I could be wrong but with the exception of the 1992 timetable, I don't believe the 110mph workings were actually that tightly timed. The Royal Scot was 5 hours dead in 100mph days of the mid/late1970s but was relaxed to about 5 hrs 08 or something into the 1980s before eventually being tightened to 4hrs 43 in 1992. In other words using the recovery margins may well have allowed a 100mph loco to keep the booked timings though most of the 1980s.