West Highland why only 156's?

[sprinterguy]

Did these units ever carry a trolley service when they operated certain services on the West Highland route and when they did Inverness to Aberdeen/Wick/Kyle services?

Judging by the info in the link (and my general knowledge), the 150/2s never operated on these routes, just the prototype 150001 whilst it was being used as a demonstrator for the Sprinter programme. No idea about trolley service; did the 37/4 loco hauled rakes on the WHL and North Highland have catering trollies at this time?

 

[Damien1986]

Judging by the info in the link (and my general knowledge), the 150/2s never operated on these routes, just the prototype 150001 whilst it was being used as a demonstrator for the Sprinter programme. No idea about trolley service; did the 37/4 loco hauled rakes on the WHL and North Highland have catering trollies at this time?

That's what I was trying to find out,did the class 150 prototype unit when on runs to Wick/Kyle/Aberdeen from Inverness have a trolley service considering when the class 156 units ran on these lines they had a trolley service?

 

[eddier73]

The prototype 150 (001) ran a return trip to Oban for the official opening of the new station 3rd Jan 1986. I was fortunate to get a trip from Oban to Taynuilt on it (and return by service train).

Going back a couple of pages, the 158s for the Kyle and Far North lines are not fitted with RETB sets all the time. They are portable ones which are held in Inveness- granted, it is usually the same sets which work the diagrams but not fixed. The Inv-Abd doesn't have any RETB but just about everything else though!

Cheers
Eddie

 

[Damien1986]

The prototype 150 (001) ran a return trip to Oban for the official opening of the new station 3rd Jan 1986. I was fortunate to get a trip from Oban to Taynuilt on it (and return by service train).

Going back a couple of pages, the 158s for the Kyle and Far North lines are not fitted with RETB sets all the time. They are portable ones which are held in Inveness- granted, it is usually the same sets which work the diagrams but not fixed. The Inv-Abd doesn't have any RETB but just about everything else though!

Cheers
Eddie

Would the prototype units have had a trolley service then when they did these runs and did the service train aka class 37 have a buffet?
Also did you ever travel from Inverness to Kyle of Lochalsh or Wick on a class 156 dmu and what was it like?

 

[4SRKT]

IIRR the loco hauled sets on the Far North had a mk II micro-buffet (remember them?) in the consist. The buffet staff all started at Inverness and the buffet would close northbound at the station before the loop where the trains crossed. Thus in 1985 the northbound 'Orcadian' off Inverness at 06:35 was buffet to Ardgay because it crossed at Lairg. The corresponding southbound 06:05 off Wick and Thurso was buffet from Ardgay. The other two trains passed at Brora and were buffet to/from Rogart (presumably Golspie > Brora wasn't long enough to cash up and pack up the stock).

This was also the case on the West Highland, with the 05:50 off Queen Street being buffet to Corrour (pass Tulloch); 09:50 buffet all the way to Fort William (set came straight back on 14:15 to Queen Street); 16:50 was buffet to Tyndrum Upper (pass Bridge of Orchy). Oban trains had buffet service in the summer months only, throughout their full length of the journey, suggesting there must have been seasonal staff based at Oban. I guess these staff would have swapped with Glasgow men at the passing points. No catering at all on Fort William > Mallaig workings.

I went to Thurso on a 156 in 1993 (there was a trolley service BTW). It was pretty good, but since I've never been north of Inverness since then I can't compare with a 158. I'm sure a 156 would be better due to the better visibility. I'm planning a trip to Kyle this summer so I can compare then. The other times I've been north of Inverness (twice to Kyle, twice more to Thurso, once to Wick) were all behind 37s, so obviously that's better than any unit.

 

[route101]

Yeah the 156s are great for viewing but the difference with 158s is the high back seating . Great for privacy tho.

 

[Bittern]

Yeah the 156s are great for viewing but the difference with 158s is the high back seating . Great for privacy tho.

There's a 'sweet spot' on the 156s from which you can "hide" from folk behind you and still have a good view. I aim for this seat every time. I'm on a 156

 

[4SRKT]

What are you doing in this sweet spot that means you need to be hidden?

 

[Bittern]

Knowing that there isn't anyone behind me staring at the back of my head.

 

[eddier73]

Would the prototype units have had a trolley service then when they did these runs and did the service train aka class 37 have a buffet?
Also did you ever travel from Inverness to Kyle of Lochalsh or Wick on a class 156 dmu and what was it like?

From memory, there wasn't a trolley service on this initial run as it was invited guests only. I believe that during the following 2 years(up to the introduction of 165s) that the protoypes ran on various trips up the WHL but I couldn't tell you if they had catering or not. Loco hauled stuff did have a micro buffet inserted in some sets but I don't remeber seeing a trolley in the current sense.
I have been to both Kyle and Wick on a 156 and the trips were OK but that was compared to a Mk2 set!
I recently went to Kyle in a refurbished 158 and was pleasantly surprised with the comfort. They seem to have done a good job inside these units (158701-725)

Cheers
Eddie

 

[Damien1986]

From memory, there wasn't a trolley service on this initial run as it was invited guests only. I believe that during the following 2 years(up to the introduction of 165s) that the protoypes ran on various trips up the WHL but I couldn't tell you if they had catering or not. Loco hauled stuff did have a micro buffet inserted in some sets but I don't remeber seeing a trolley in the current sense.
I have been to both Kyle and Wick on a 156 and the trips were OK but that was compared to a Mk2 set!
I recently went to Kyle in a refurbished 158 and was pleasantly surprised with the comfort. They seem to have done a good job inside these units (158701-725)

Cheers
Eddie

Although the class 37 aka loco-hauled services were the class running on this line?

 

[4SRKT]

I don't think there was a trolley service on the loco hauled sets. In fact I don't remember trolley services on any trains that had a catering vehicle in them back then: everyone had to make their own way to the buffet. Trolleys were introduced on longer-distance services that traditionally had no catering on longer distance routes such as the North Trans-Pennine in the late 80s IIRR.

 

[Kingfisher200262]

I hadn't seen this thread previously and now, looking back through the postings (unless I've missed it - apologies if I have), I can't see an answer to the original question, so am offering one now.

The primary reason that 156 units can go places that 158s can't is because the 158 is fitted with a yaw damper, which extends outside the gauge and therefore limits its use. This presumably applies on the West Highland.

As a company looking to introduce new trains, gauge is a primary issue and we have studied this for some time. Network Rail has an aspiration to have a complete gauging database for the whole network, enabling absolute gauging (see Note 1) to be adopted for new trains, but is some years away from achieving that goal. In the meantime, the data that NR offers has a caveat of a 100 mm (4") tolerance, particularly in the six foot (i.e. the distance between one track and the adjacent one). This is no use whatsoever to a train designer because it potentially means that the train must be 100 mm narrower than it actually needs to be.... bonkers!

At present therefore, it is necessary to adopt comparative gauging (see Note 2), meaning that it is necessary to find a good comparator vehicle. When we carried out this exercise by trawling through the Sectional Appendices, we found that the most "go anywhere" train on the network is the Class 156 DMU, it being able to go places that (for differing reasons), Classes 14x, 150 and 158 can't. For this reason, our 23 metre products for the UK closely follow the existing Class 156 profile.

Note 1: “absolute gauging”: where a computer model of the dynamic
performance of the new train is superimposed on the computer model of
the infrastructure.

Note 2: “comparative gauging”: where a computer model of the new train is
compared to that of an existing train which already operates over the
routes in question.

 

[Marklund]

When we carried out this exercise by trawling through the Sectional Appendices, we found that the most "go anywhere" train on the network is the Class 156 DMU, it being able to go places that (for differing reasons), Classes 14x, 150 and 158 can't. For this reason, our 23 metre products for the UK closely follow the existing Class 156 profile.

I was under the impression that the restrictions on the 20 metre 150 series were less than the 23 metre 156. Interesting.

 

[Kingfisher200262]

I was under the impression that the restrictions on the 20 metre 150 series were less than the 23 metre 156. Interesting.

I was also surprised by this, but the 150 is wider than the 156 (though you'd think that the shorter length would counter this). Talking to the senior team at Transys (most of whom were involved in the Class 156 during their Met Camm days), it would seem that the end profile on the 156 works much more efficiently dynamically than other 23 metre designs and that this, combined with the narrower body and lack of yaw damper (not needed for a 75 mph unit) maximises route availability.

 

[tbtc]

our 23 metre products for the UK closely follow the existing Class 156 profile

Interesting stuff - I've picked this quote out as I think that the 156 is a very under-rated unit. Too many of them to attract people who like "small" classes. Not as fast as other units. Not disliked enough to attract people like Pacer-enthusiasts... the 156 is one that a lot of people ignore/forget, but I can't think of many faults/ things I'd change with them, and they are still running well today.

If only we could build a few hundred today (since there's a limit to how long older Pacer/Sprinters will last)...

 

[Eng274]

Interesting stuff - I've picked this quote out as I think that the 156 is a very under-rated unit. Too many of them to attract people who like "small" classes. Not as fast as other units. Not disliked enough to attract people like Pacer-enthusiasts... the 156 is one that a lot of people ignore/forget, but I can't think of many faults/ things I'd change with them, and they are still running well today.

If only we could build a few hundred today (since there's a limit to how long older Pacer/Sprinters will last)...

I agree, it is very underrated. The travelling public and the media only notice unreliability, and scarce credit goes to trains that seldom break down. The 156 seemed to have an easy birth as well, which by today's standards is a rarity!

It is concerning to think that the Welsh pacers will only be replaced in 2018 at the earliest, (un)fortunately that puts the excellent Super Sprinter way down the replacement pecking order, which is no bad thing.

Will the 156s continue working Edinburgh - Glasgow via Shotts after all the fleet cascades?

 

[tbtc]

Will the 156s continue working Edinburgh - Glasgow via Shotts after all the fleet cascades?

It looks like it. Having done the rough maths, the electrification would free up around 45/50 DMUs in Scotland (mainly on Turbostar routes).

As 158s can't work the West Highland or South Western lines, the logical thing (IMO) would be for Scotrail to concentrate on 156s and 170s as their DMUs, and cascade the 158s elsewhere.

156s seem perfectly suited to a route like the Shotts one - they can cope with the frequent stopping on the "slow" ones and have a good ride quality at higher speeds for the "fast" service back (since a slow eastbound becomes a fast westbound, and vice versa, you need a unit which can do both well)

 

[Eng274]

It looks like it. Having done the rough maths, the electrification would free up around 45/50 DMUs in Scotland (mainly on Turbostar routes).

As 158s can't work the West Highland or South Western lines, the logical thing (IMO) would be for Scotrail to concentrate on 156s and 170s as their DMUs, and cascade the 158s elsewhere.

156s seem perfectly suited to a route like the Shotts one - they can cope with the frequent stopping on the "slow" ones and have a good ride quality at higher speeds for the "fast" service back (since a slow eastbound becomes a fast westbound, and vice versa, you need a unit which can do both well)

I was on a 156 on the said route during the bad snow a fortnight ago, and it was then that i realised that it was a tough unit in a sea of broken 170s. A bit cold (to be expected), but still a more enjoyable journey than on a 170. And as you pointed out, very apt for slow or semi-fast routes.

The 158s do seem the logical choice to move on, but I'd still miss them.

 

[Ibex]

Apologies for changing the subject slightly, but what is this RETB thing that was mentioned on the previous page, that 158's aren't all fitted with?

 

[First ScotRail]

RETB is the form of signalling the WHL uses, as well as the far north line in Scotland. It is radio electronic token block signalling, and requires the driver to contact Banavie (in the case of the WHL) for permission to proceed at most stations via the cab radio and RETB equipment.

Only certain 156s and 158s have the equipment in the SR fleet however the equipment can be moved to different units if required.

 

[Aictos]

I was on a 156 on the said route during the bad snow a fortnight ago, and it was then that i realised that it was a tough unit in a sea of broken 170s. A bit cold (to be expected), but still a more enjoyable journey than on a 170. And as you pointed out, very apt for slow or semi-fast routes.

The 158s do seem the logical choice to move on, but I'd still miss them.

Agreed, I was in Scotland a few weeks ago and the 156s seemed to be the only traction on the Edinburgh to Glasgow route which wasn't failing at a high rate like the 170s were.

 

[scotsman]

Interesting stuff - I've picked this quote out as I think that the 156 is a very under-rated unit. Too many of them to attract people who like "small" classes. Not as fast as other units. Not disliked enough to attract people like Pacer-enthusiasts... the 156 is one that a lot of people ignore/forget, but I can't think of many faults/ things I'd change with them, and they are still running well today.

If only we could build a few hundred today (since there's a limit to how long older Pacer/Sprinters will last)...

I have a mate who likes 156 so much that he has learned the West Highland Line to near enough Driver's standards

 

[CarterUSM]

I have a mate who likes 156 so much that he has learned the West Highland Line to near enough Driver's standards

Driver standard? Does he carry about a thermos cup with him all the time? 156's rule, i work them nearly all the time and they do the job really well. Only complaint is that they are usually freezing in winter, and loading/unloading takes too long on suburban runs.

 

[scotsman]

Driver standard? Does he carry about a thermos cup with him all the time? 156's rule, i work them nearly all the time and they do the job really well. Only complaint is that they are usually freezing in winter, and loading/unloading takes too long on suburban runs.

Yes he does!

 

[tbtc]

I have a mate who likes 156 so much that he has learned the West Highland Line to near enough Driver's standards

Love it

 

[LE Greys]

Interesting stuff - I've picked this quote out as I think that the 156 is a very under-rated unit. Too many of them to attract people who like "small" classes. Not as fast as other units. Not disliked enough to attract people like Pacer-enthusiasts... the 156 is one that a lot of people ignore/forget, but I can't think of many faults/ things I'd change with them, and they are still running well today.

If only we could build a few hundred today (since there's a limit to how long older Pacer/Sprinters will last)...

I agree. The 156 is a good, basic train that does the job it is supposed to do, in the tradition of the GWR 4500+B-set combination. It's a lot more comfortable than any Pacer (mind you, so's my garden shed) and I think it's more comfortable than a 158. Luggage space is better than a 158 and ventilation is certainly better. It's light and isn't overpowered, so doesn't use too much fuel. It can climb hills very well and has better acceleration than a 170 at the low end of the range. As long as you don't have too many passengers and don't want to go faster than 75 mph (why would you on a light branch line) the 156 is just about right. If we ever replace them, it had better be with something similar, just a bit more modern.

 

[Kingfisher200262]

I agree. The 156 is a good, basic train that does the job it is supposed to do, in the tradition of the GWR 4500+B-set combination. It's a lot more comfortable than any Pacer (mind you, so's my garden shed) and I think it's more comfortable than a 158. Luggage space is better than a 158 and ventilation is certainly better. It's light and isn't overpowered, so doesn't use too much fuel. It can climb hills very well and has better acceleration than a 170 at the low end of the range. As long as you don't have too many passengers and don't want to go faster than 75 mph (why would you on a light branch line) the 156 is just about right. If we ever replace them, it had better be with something similar, just a bit more modern.

It seems that most people like the 156.... a lot. So, a question. Would the 156 have been as good had it had 1/3 - 2/3 doors as opposed to end-doors?

Hope you don't mind the market research.

 

[scotsman]

It seems that most people like the 156.... a lot. So, a question. Would the 156 have been as good had it had 1/3 - 2/3 doors as opposed to end-doors?

Hope you don't mind the market research.

No, because I endured 150s on my local route for the best part of 10 years

 

[Aictos]

Personally I would have welcomed 2 and 3 car 156s as standard much like there are 2 and 3 car 158s and 170s.