West London Orbital line and Sutton Tram extension added to Mayor’s Transport Strategy

[stuu]

Maximum gradient of 1:80 permitted on newbuilds, so 250m gets you 3.1m lower - UK centreline height of rail vehicles is c.4m, so either the road (and it's associated services/decking etc) needs to raise by 1m+ around the railway or the passengers will need to crouch down, which won't help the crush loading figures!

Was that introduced after Crossrail got permission? And if so, why?

 

[zwk500]

Was that introduced after Crossrail got permission? And if so, why?

I don't know when it was introduced, but crossrail could easily have got a derogation considering the limits they were working within and the fact they were going to be a single class of EMU.

 

[stuu]

I don't know when it was introduced, but crossrail could easily have got a derogation considering the limits they were working within and the fact they were going to be a single class of EMU.

So the gradient limit isn't necessarily a limit

 

[zwk500]

So the gradient limit isn't necessarily a limit

It's a standard, and you'd need a derogation to deviate from it, which are only granted if there's a clear demonstration as to why, and what mitigation there is for the additional risks.

Out of interest which parts of Crossrail exceed 1:80?

 

[stuu]

It's a standard, and you'd need a derogation to deviate from it, which are only granted if there's a clear demonstration as to why, and what mitigation there is for the additional risks.

Out of interest which parts of Crossrail exceed 1:80?

The Pudding Mill Lane portal is ~1:30, I can't remember if anything else is. I'm not bothered enough to go through the planning documentation!

 

[HSTEd]

Gradients much steeper than 1 in 80 are going to cause problems for the sort of low-powered diesel hauled freight we have in the UK.

Unfortunately freight trains don't have the power to weight and tractive effort to weight ratios of passenger units!

 

[vla50]

This might sound very ambitious but could the West London Orbital be extended from West Hampstead Thameslink down the Midland Mid Line to the curve of track that joins onto the GOBLIN just after Gospel Oak and then extend it down the GOBLIN to Barking Riverside? Basically forming a Hounslow/Kew Bridge to Barking Riverside service

 

[zwk500]

This might sound very ambitious but could the West London Orbital be extended from West Hampstead Thameslink down the Midland Mid Line to the curve of track that joins onto the GOBLIN just after Gospel Oak and then extend it down the GOBLIN to Barking Riverside? Basically forming a Hounslow/Kew Bridge to Barking Riverside service

In short, no. You'd need to remove a lot of Thameslink services to get the gaps at the junctions.

 

[MarkyT]

This might sound very ambitious but could the West London Orbital be extended from West Hampstead Thameslink down the Midland Mid Line to the curve of track that joins onto the GOBLIN just after Gospel Oak and then extend it down the GOBLIN to Barking Riverside? Basically forming a Hounslow/Kew Bridge to Barking Riverside service

An interesting idea, but that would destroy connections between Goblin and NLL services, and orbital services are the wrong side of the MLL fast lines, so would need either a impossibly disruptive flat crossing of all lines, or an expensive and practically impossible grade separation. Would also take out yet another useful piece of holding track on orbital routes for freights.

 

[Bald Rick]

This might sound very ambitious but could the West London Orbital be extended from West Hampstead Thameslink down the Midland Mid Line to the curve of track that joins onto the GOBLIN just after Gospel Oak and then extend it down the GOBLIN to Barking Riverside? Basically forming a Hounslow/Kew Bridge to Barking Riverside service

It is very ambitious. Also not going to happen, for the reasons set out in the discussion on the previous two pages of this thread.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

This might sound very ambitious but could the West London Orbital be extended from West Hampstead Thameslink down the Midland Mid Line to the curve of track that joins onto the GOBLIN just after Gospel Oak and then extend it down the GOBLIN to Barking Riverside? Basically forming a Hounslow/Kew Bridge to Barking Riverside service

Surely if you wanted to do that, you'd run it alongside the MML only as far as West Hampstead, where it would then join the existing North London line - because that's the line you need to be on to access the GOBLIN.

(EDIT: Just looked at Google maps more closely. I see there is in fact a connection between the GOBLIN and the MML that must be what you were thinking of. But would be very difficult because MML is already busy. Can't see that working unless you built new separate tracks for the orbital railway to avoid the extra conflicting moves).

But I'd also expect it o be 'no'. The new track you'd have to build would involve knocking down a lot of houses, and the benefits would be minimal: You'd lose the ability for the West London orbital to serve Brent Cross West, but on the other hand having it serve West Hampstead is almost pointless because it'd just be replicating existing connections: There will probably some kind of connection with the Jubilee line at Neasden, so anyone on the new orbital line who wants to get to West Hampstead/etc. could just change there (or, depending where their journey started, use the North London line in the first place).

 

[MarkyT]

Here's my idea for the

Surely if you wanted to do that, you'd run it alongside the MML only as far as West Hampstead, where it would then join the existing North London line - because that's the line you need to be on to access the GOBLIN.

But I'd also expect it o be 'no'. The new track you'd have to build would involve knocking down a lot of houses, and the benefits would be minimal: You'd lose the ability for the West London orbital to serve Brent Cross West, but on the other hand having it serve West Hampstead is almost pointless because it'd just be replicating existing connections: There will probably some kind of connection with the Jubilee line at Neasden, so anyone on the new orbital line who wants to get to West Hampstead/etc. could just change there (or, depending where their journey started, use the North London line in the first place).

Agree that would be better if you could do it but it's not just houses around West Hampstead. You'd have difficulty with the varying track levels and threading through major road bridges etc. If you really wanted to do this, it might be more practical to look at an additional Belsize Tunnel bore that could cross all MML lines without conflict. Can't see that being affordable, although it could have some utility for cross London freight.

My alternative suggestion for a northern terminus for the proposed OG orbital would be a single track spur to Colindale from a new junction just north of Hendon with an intermediate stop for the Police College and Middlesex University. Where running parallel with the Northern Line the LUL tracks might need shifting over a little in places to make space for the new single line. The terminus at Colindale would ideally have two tracks for resilience; it would be south of Colindale Avenue, adjacent to the park. The precise location of the junction north of Hendon would be selected to maintain standage for freights waiting to join the MML slows at Silkstream Jn.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Here's my idea for the

Agree that would be better if you could do it but it's not just houses around West Hampstead. You'd have difficulty with the varying track levels and threading through major road bridges etc. If you really wanted to do this, it might be more practical to look at an additional Belsize Tunnel bore that could cross all MML lines without conflict. Can't see that being affordable, although it could have some utility for cross London freight.

My alternative suggestion for a northern terminus for the proposed OG orbital would be a single track spur to Colindale from a new junction just north of Hendon with an intermediate stop for the Police College and Middlesex University. Where running parallel with the Northern Line the LUL tracks might need shifting over a little in places to make space for the new single line. The terminus at Colindale would ideally have two tracks for resilience; it would be south of Colindale Avenue, adjacent to the park. The precise location of the junction north of Hendon would be selected to maintain standage for freights waiting to join the MML slows at Silkstream Jn.

View attachment 137863

Funnily enough, that's not that much different from what I'd have been inclined to try doing: I'd have terminated the orbital railway roughly where you have the Hendon Police College station, and also built Northern line and Thameslink platforms there, so you then have a full interchange between all the lines. If you did that, you could possibly consider closing Hendon station to avoid slowing down Thameslink, since it's not that far away from either the new station or from Brent Cross West.

 

[vla50]

Could the Southall to Brentford line become part of this project if it is reopened? In another thread relating to this line, there are suggestions that trains could run every 20 minutes along the line, so this could this be an alternative to the Kew Bridge terminus (especially as plans for the branch suggest it reaching Old Oak). As the Kew Bridge terminus would prevent freight movements from joining the line towards Clapham Junction (I’m assuming the platforms would be built on the pre-existing track)

 

[SynthD]

Could the Southall to Brentford line become part of this project if it is reopened? In another thread relating to this line, there are suggestions that trains could run every 20 minutes along the line, so this could this be an alternative to the Kew Bridge terminus (especially as plans for the branch suggest it reaching Old Oak). As the Kew Bridge terminus would prevent freight movements from joining the line towards Clapham Junction (I’m assuming the platforms would be built on the pre-existing track)

No, because the line doesn’t reach Brentford any more. I expect that the use of Kew Bridge will have been designed around the freight paths.

 

[vla50]

No, because the line doesn’t reach Brentford any more. I expect that the use of Kew Bridge will have been designed around the freight paths.

But there are plans for it to reopen to Brentford and it for it to continue further onto Old Oak Common?

It could always be designed around freight paths at Kew Bridge, although I do believe it is not as useful given the proximity of Lionel Road. I know there are limitations of the number of trains that will eventually be able to cross the MML towards Hendon and W Hampstead, so if extra capacity was needed on the core section, Kew Bridge could always be used as a terminus, with maybe another branch absorbing the extra trains if necessary.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

But there are plans for it to reopen to Brentford and it for it to continue further onto Old Oak Common?

Not that I know of. Hounslow Council would like to get the line reopened (see for example this Ian Visits report), but their plans involve a new station at the existing end of the line, so it would just be a shuttle between Southall and the new Brentford station, so there would be no connection with any West London orbital line.

 

[vla50]

Not that I know of. Hounslow Council would like to get the line reopened (see for example this Ian Visits report), but their plans involve a new station at the existing end of the line, so it would just be a shuttle between Southall and the new Brentford station, so there would be no connection with any West London orbital line.

There was a suggestion by an issue of Today’s Railway UK that “The single track GWR line from Southall could now re-open to passengers as a Crossrail feeder. Trains would run from Southall to a new station at Transport Avenue near where the M4 and Heathrow Piccadilly line branch cross over with a possible extension to Brentford in the future.” Whilst such a link might make the project more expensive, it would make it far easier to access the new Golden Mile development for those living in Hounslow and Acton, where some of the workforce is likely to be.

On Wikipedia - it has been quoted that “The proposals suggested that the service could be operated by Great Western Railway and could be open by 2020 with a new service from Southall to Hounslow and possible later to Old Oak Common.” so it’s quite clear that demand would be there for a cross West London link, and whilst I doubt services could reach Hounslow due to the number of future WLO trains/existing SWR services, an interchange at Brentford with frequent services would suffice, and the Old Oak Common link would be possible to achieve (I think it would be impossible for it to head that way via the GWML, so no doubt they mean via Brentford)

 

[Bald Rick]

But there are plans for it to reopen to Brentford and it for it to continue further onto Old Oak Common?

The proposal is t being taken forward, AIUI.

 

[Dr_Paul]

The main problem for passenger traffic on the GWR Brentford branch was that it 'faced the wrong way' at Southall, and anyone wanting to go to London from Brentford would be far better off on the Southern. The lien was originally built for freight traffic from the GWR main-line to Brentford Dock. I don't know if there would be much call for passenger traffic on it today, despite the massive expansion of Southall as a residential area. And, as others have said, it doesn't go to Brentford any longer, and a new bridge would be required over the Great West Road if rebuilding to Brentford is ever considered.