West Lothian buses

[TheEastCoaster]

i think they should have just scrapped the sunday 275 as its more or less pointless now. the 287 has the x27 which can take all the passengers from it except the wester inch ones

I’m guessing if the way things go that might be the case in the next service changes!

I’m wondering if the 287 is popular in Wester Inch area? Since it’s the only mainline bus service that runs through it besides the Town service, and with the evening service being cut I wonder how the residents will react, because I know how much of an upcry there was when the X18 was taken off.

 

[Jordan Adam]

I’m guessing if the way things go that might be the case in the next service changes!

I’m wondering if the 287 is popular in Wester Inch area? Since it’s the only mainline bus service that runs through it besides the Town service, and with the evening service being cut I wonder how the residents will react, because I know how much of an upcry there was when the X18 was taken off.

If i'm not mistake Wester Inch is all new builds? If so then i'm not surprised the 287 is being cut back. People seem to think that new houses = significantly more passengers, however this is not always the case. Typically new build estates have higher than average car use, so the number of residents using buses tends to be lower. It's only really council lead new build "affordable housing" schemes that give the potential for significant growth.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

If i'm not mistake Wester Inch is all new builds? If so then i'm not surprised the 287 is being cut back. People seem to think that new houses = significantly more passengers, however this is not always the case. Typically new build estates have higher than average car use, so the number of residents using buses tends to be lower. It's only really council lead new build "affordable housing" schemes that give the potential for significant growth.

I never really thought about that, then again I haven’t really been out to Bathgate! I suppose there’s a few that still find it handy mostly non residents that don’t drive or the latter that don’t use cars,

It’s like the new builds up at Wallyford, I noticed near the new road leading to the houses they built a bus stop there, but then of course it’s also like the new build in Greendykes which they extended the 14 too, I don’t know I guess it’s handy to have options but the old saying goes, use it or lose it

 

[overthewater]

Of course this is supposed to be the type of area which Lothian should do better as its got a better reputation. Of course how many of these new estate are actually busy, i dont mean passengers i mean actually people being around during the day? I bet many of these places are dead outside school holls.

 

[Driver362]

287 is Very lightly used. But it's the same old story. You run a service for example X18, no one used it. It gets taken off, and there's an uproar of people whose bums haven't been near a bus seat since there school days

 

[Jordan Adam]

287 is Very lightly used. But it's the same old story. You run a service for example X18, no one used it. It gets taken off, and there's an uproar of people whose bums haven't been near a bus seat since there school days

Unless i've missed something there hasn't been any uproar about the cuts to the 287.

 

[Driver362]

Re: post suggested uproar when X18 was removed. Thought that was pretty clear. I never mentioned the 287 other than to say it was lightly used?

 

[Jordan Adam]

Re: post suggested uproar when X18 was removed. Thought that was pretty clear. I never mentioned the 287 other than to say it was lightly used?

Your post implied there had been an uproar by saying that the cuts to the 287 were the "same old story" as the X18. Anyway that doesn't matter. I think the point that can be learned from the 287 is that new houses don't mean new passengers.

 

[overthewater]

The 287 should be getting plenty of people over all?

 

[tbtc]

Of course this is supposed to be the type of area which Lothian should do better as its got a better reputation

Of course?

Again, Lothian are being held to some imaginary standard by enthusiasts, so that they can be criticised for "failing" to meet them.

Unless there's been anything official from Lothian saying that their better reputation meant that they were guaranteed to win over everyone in West Lothian within a few weeks (existing bus passengers and motorists)?

 

[overthewater]

Of course?

Again, Lothian are being held to some imaginary standard by enthusiasts, so that they can be criticised for "failing" to meet them.

Unless there's been anything official from Lothian saying that their better reputation meant that they were guaranteed to win over everyone in West Lothian within a few weeks (existing bus passengers and motorists)?

What a load of claptrap, it's not some "imaginary standard by enthusiasts" it pretty much know. Lothian reputation is of a higher class compared to First..........

Alas Fares V reputation has taken place, and is the reason why people have not made the change. If Lothian didn't have better reputation then why on earth would anyone switch companies? Oh well Lothian crap compared to first so let just switch?!

I made this very clear. BECAUSE of the higher reputation, Lothian would indeed have better chance to convince that estates car drivers out of their car, because the posh estate is posh, said people want the finer things IE Lothian are the only one that have a chance. You implied there was some sort of criticism, when there clearly wasn't, I see you happily didn't include the other part of what I said. Hey that does fit with you post. Ie the reason why Lothian is having a bit of trouble in the estate.. which would be totally valid reason.

Your had to make this into some sort of drama:

 

[Baileygirl]

west Lothian council cut the 31 out of easterinch which ran in the evenings as a direct result of the 287 going through it. now no buses going through the estate in the evenings. Lothian country might still be at war with first but have managed to cut the routes of JD travel and Blue Bus. (contract and commercial)

 

[Jordan Adam]

west Lothian council cut the 31 out of easterinch which ran in the evenings as a direct result of the 287 going through it. now no buses going through the estate in the evenings. Lothian country might still be at war with first but have managed to cut the routes of JD travel and Blue Bus. (contract and commercial)

This was always my fear about the bus war, that it would eventually lead to a worse level of service for some. This being a good example and i suspect not the last either!

Of course?

Again, Lothian are being held to some imaginary standard by enthusiasts, so that they can be criticised for "failing" to meet them.

Unless there's been anything official from Lothian saying that their better reputation meant that they were guaranteed to win over everyone in West Lothian within a few weeks (existing bus passengers and motorists)?

Actually i would agree that generally Lothian do have a better reputation with the general public, how this translates to bums on seats is a little different. Quite often reasons a certain person may pick one bus over another can be quite trivial and sometimes inaccurate, for example Person A might refuse to take the 280 because it diverts via St John's where as the 25 in their mind goes direct and is therefor faster (in reality the 280 is only 1 minute slower than the 25, however person A may not realise that). Person B might have a Anti-Corporation agenda and catch the X27 and then 275 from Whitburn to Broxburn over First's more direct 600. Not saying everyone is like that, however the point is that often bus users "not in the know" will pick one service over another for what can seem rather petty / odd reasons.

That aside, prior to the bus war there did seem to be a strong fight for better services and for Lothian to start in the area, i recall even politicians writing asking for them to. It's odd given that the First network, especially after the Aug 2018 changes is actually fairly decent.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Of course?

Again, Lothian are being held to some imaginary standard by enthusiasts, so that they can be criticised for "failing" to meet them.

Unless there's been anything official from Lothian saying that their better reputation meant that they were guaranteed to win over everyone in West Lothian within a few weeks (existing bus passengers and motorists)?

Ah yes - the quality argument. Or is just the first bus that comes along at times?

 

[livi man]

Is there any truth in Mr hall being on garden leave for the money they are losing

 

[Jordan Adam]

Is there any truth in Mr hall being on garden leave for the money they are losing

Probably not to be honest, the council seem perfectly fine with the money Lothian have wasted over the years on "vanity" projects so long as the company as a whole brings in some money.

 

[Siemens Trains]

Ah yes - the quality argument. Or is just the first bus that comes along at times?

It can be whichever bus comes along first if there are identical routes. Outside Edinburgh city, for fare-payers this is usually trumped by holding a season ticket for a particular operator, hence why some people are mystified by Lothian's reluctance to introduce season tickets where they have competition.
Within Edinburgh, brand loyalty to Lothian is very high so most folk would let a non-Lothian bus go past and wait for a red bus regardless of the cost. I'm a bit like this myself - it just becomes a habit when Lothian's service seldom lets you down.
As Jordan Adam says, there are a number of factors that influence passenger behaviour. Perceived and measurable quality of service are a couple, but there are plenty more.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It can be whichever bus comes along first if there are identical routes. Outside Edinburgh city, for fare-payers this is usually trumped by holding a season ticket for a particular operator, hence why some people are mystified by Lothian's reluctance to introduce season tickets where they have competition.
Within Edinburgh, brand loyalty to Lothian is very high so most folk would let a non-Lothian bus go past and wait for a red bus regardless of the cost. I'm a bit like this myself - it just becomes a habit when Lothian's service seldom lets you down.
As Jordan Adam says, there are a number of factors that influence passenger behaviour. Perceived and measurable quality of service are a couple, but there are plenty more.

In Edinburgh as with many places, there is the loyalty (the power of the incumbent) that season tickets can bring.

Quality in terms of reliability is more telling but I remember the 1989 Teesside bus war where brand new Lynxes went up against 15 year old Bristol LHs and Leyland Nationals (and the latter won).

In West Lothian, it’s now into the really interesting phase and what will First do next?

 

[livi man]

Why does first need to do anything people coming back to them

 

[tbtc]

What a load of claptrap, it's not some "imaginary standard by enthusiasts" it pretty much know. Lothian reputation is of a higher class compared to First..........

Alas Fares V reputation has taken place, and is the reason why people have not made the change. If Lothian didn't have better reputation then why on earth would anyone switch companies? Oh well Lothian crap compared to first so let just switch?!

I made this very clear. BECAUSE of the higher reputation, Lothian would indeed have better chance to convince that estates car drivers out of their car, because the posh estate is posh, said people want the finer things IE Lothian are the only one that have a chance. You implied there was some sort of criticism, when there clearly wasn't, I see you happily didn't include the other part of what I said. Hey that does fit with you post. Ie the reason why Lothian is having a bit of trouble in the estate.. which would be totally valid reason.

Your had to make this into some sort of drama:

There seems to be a trend on here of people dreaming up things to criticise Lothian for - often it's the fact that First didn't simply withdraw completely from West Lothian at the initial sight of the 275 (I'm not sure which competition people were using as their benchmark for West Lothian?) - now it's the fact that Lothian can't attract people onto their buses who First couldn't attract onto their buses either - the fact that Lothian apparently have a good reputation is being used as a stick to beat them with .

Why would anyone switch companies? Really? Because sometimes the Lothian one turns up before the First one does, because Lothian provide some direct links that First doesn't, because some people have journeys that involve Lothian (e.g. travelling to the parts of Edinburgh that aren't just the ones directly on the A8/A71)? There's various reasons (just as there are many reasons why existing First passengers haven't all switched - it's not just picking up a different brand in a supermarket - if you're used to buying the ticket on one company you aren't necessarily going to *need* to switch to a new company.

(and you're saying that First, despite the huge investment of modern low floor buses in West Lothian, despite the route branding, despite having a local non-corporate livery, still can't be "posh" enough with all of those leather seats/ wifi etc?)

People don't always switch to companies with *better* reputations anyway - it's a combination of price/ simplicity/ reputation etc - there's room in the market for Ryanair and British Airways (for example).

Maybe Lothian do have a better reputation - maybe it's worth exploring the reasons for that (and why First needed to take the anonymous "cheap and cheerful' approach approach with their Edinburgh tours, rather than using the First brand) - but you're criticising Lothian for not attracting passengers that no bus company was attracting - you're accusing Lothian of having "a bit of trouble" (because they aren't attracting people that nobody was attracting)...

Ah yes - the quality argument. Or is just the first bus that comes along at times?

You're obviously someone with many years experience of these things - others on here seem to have less experience and it shows.

 

[Stan Drews]

Here we go again... tbtc coming on here and talking sense!
Don’t you know that this thread is for inane drivel?

 

[smtglasgow]

Lothian – within Edinburgh at least - certainly does have a much better reputation than First – the result of years of decent investment in stock AND staff and a long track record of providing decent services at an affordable price. Of course, their trump card has always been the almost total lack of parking within the city centre, so everyone HAS to use the bus, which is why you see so many middle class/white-collar folk on board. How much of this translates to West Lothian is debateable, but given that most Glasgow people believe that the buses in Edinburgh are better, I’d assume that the good folk of West Lothian probably have a high opinion of LCB, even if their ticketing is STILL a bit odd.

Really don’t get the Lothian-hating. I’ve always been a bit sceptical about what they’re up to in West Lothian (ie. attacking an incumbent), but Lothian (and East Coast) are probably the best we have in Scotland (and up there with the best in the UK). The bus industry is in a dark place atm – we need to acknowledge the successes.

 

[overthewater]

I only criticise Lothian for one thing, the lack of proper weekly and monthly tickets end off.

TBTC is accusing me of accusing Lothian.. . He can keep on thinking that, nothing is going to change his mind.

Lothian is having a Bit of trouble in Wester Inch I even give a reason (twice - swept under the carpet) I have used the 287 a few time and the Estate is empty its like Ghost town.. Lothian believe they still have chance with the scheme since there still serving it. I think there would have been better diverting the Ex1 run the estate but the road layout put stop to that? If you want we could go into the why Lothian did not use high spec deckers instead of coaches etc

Highlighting a problem IS NOT criticism, especially if you give reasons

Lothian will need to sharpen it pencil in the estate, but I believe it has much better chance of attracting new bus passengers in that area unlike First... With certain will never believe that because of self imposed ideas.

 

[Baileygirl]

A lot of people in Blackburn and Easterinch use the 287 to go to the Bathgate health centre also they were asking for a bus to get to the station which the proposed extension will satisfy this

 

[Driver362]

There seems to be a trend on here of people dreaming up things to criticise Lothian for - often it's the fact that First didn't simply withdraw completely from West Lothian at the initial sight of the 275 (I'm not sure which competition people were using as their benchmark for West Lothian?) - now it's the fact that Lothian can't attract people onto their buses who First couldn't attract onto their buses either - the fact that Lothian apparently have a good reputation is being used as a stick to beat them with .

Why would anyone switch companies? Really? Because sometimes the Lothian one turns up before the First one does, because Lothian provide some direct links that First doesn't, because some people have journeys that involve Lothian (e.g. travelling to the parts of Edinburgh that aren't just the ones directly on the A8/A71)? There's various reasons (just as there are many reasons why existing First passengers haven't all switched - it's not just picking up a different brand in a supermarket - if you're used to buying the ticket on one company you aren't necessarily going to *need* to switch to a new company.

(and you're saying that First, despite the huge investment of modern low floor buses in West Lothian, despite the route branding, despite having a local non-corporate livery, still can't be "posh" enough with all of those leather seats/ wifi etc?)

People don't always switch to companies with *better* reputations anyway - it's a combination of price/ simplicity/ reputation etc - there's room in the market for Ryanair and British Airways (for example).

Maybe Lothian do have a better reputation - maybe it's worth exploring the reasons for that (and why First needed to take the anonymous "cheap and cheerful' approach approach with their Edinburgh tours, rather than using the First brand) - but you're criticising Lothian for not attracting passengers that no bus company was attracting - you're accusing Lothian of having "a bit of trouble" (because they aren't attracting people that nobody was attracting)...



You're obviously someone with many years experience of these things - others on here seem to have less experience and it shows.

The most sense I've read for a bit on this thread. Fact is first didn't get anyone In wester inch, horseburgh, jd travel and indeed ourselves. Its simple. Bar a few folks the vast majority do not want to take the bus from wester inch to anywhere. They much rather take the car. I would be willing to wager if you put a direct commuter green arrow special through there (High spec coach) dedicated driver/s it still wouldn't get used. No more than a 15 year old banger would. This tripe about Lothian reputation etc is utter drivel. Why dose most posts by otw on this thread seem like a personal attack on LB and subsidiaries rather than logical statements.??

 

[overthewater]

The most sense I've read for a bit on this thread. Fact is first didn't get anyone In wester inch, horseburgh, jd travel and indeed ourselves. Its simple. Bar a few folks the vast majority do not want to take the bus from wester inch to anywhere. They much rather take the car. I would be willing to wager if you put a direct commuter green arrow special through there (High spec coach) dedicated driver/s it still wouldn't get used. No more than a 15 year old banger would. This tripe about Lothian reputation etc is utter drivel. Why dose most posts by otw on this thread seem like a personal attack on LB and subsidiaries rather than logical statements.??

SO your saying Lothian do not have a better reputation? Really? never though I see the day lothian drive kicking in the company

 

[Driver362]

No, that's not what I'm saying, but You, using it to say we should be doing better in an area no one has done well in is ridiculous and you know that fine well IMHO. On the whole I would tend to agree Lothian do have a better reputation but that's not there fault first let there's slip is it??

 

[Siemens Trains]

The most sense I've read for a bit on this thread. Fact is first didn't get anyone In wester inch, horseburgh, jd travel and indeed ourselves. Its simple. Bar a few folks the vast majority do not want to take the bus from wester inch to anywhere. They much rather take the car. I would be willing to wager if you put a direct commuter green arrow special through there (High spec coach) dedicated driver/s it still wouldn't get used. No more than a 15 year old banger would. This tripe about Lothian reputation etc is utter drivel. Why dose most posts by otw on this thread seem like a personal attack on LB and subsidiaries rather than logical statements.??

If someone said my own reputation was better than my peers I think I would take it as a compliment rather than a personal attack. It's possible you've been a little sensitive to criticism that's delivered in a slightly unclear manner.

The point being made was that Lothian Country may not have lived up to their potential with the Wester Inch route. This is probably the last chance for residents there who might have claimed their previous services were poorly used due to lower quality.

 

[Driver362]

There may be a touch of that yes. But to my mind some of these posts are a bit silly and come across as a personal attack on lb rather that an accurate record of events.

 

[Jordan Adam]

There may be a touch of that yes. But to my mind some of these posts are a bit silly and come across as a personal attack on lb rather that an accurate record of events.

A company is not a person so that is utter nonsense.

I fail to see how saying Lothian have a better reputation than First but have failed to meet that in West Lothian is really an attack, it's not, it's simply a matter of opinion (albeit not mine).