West Lothian buses

[overthewater]

We are forgetting one other shareholder, West lothian council there not going to be best pleased if they are about to retender all there service and then suddenly found out the rug is being pulled underneath they feet? Does this mean WLC might demand to know what plan is for LCB going forward so it can tender is service correctly?

 

[Jordan Adam]

We are forgetting one other shareholder, West lothian council there not going to be best pleased if they are about to retender all there service and then suddenly found out the rug is being pulled underneath they feet? Does this mean WLC might demand to know what plan is for LCB going forward so it can tender is service correctly?

WLC only own 1% though. So very much a minority and less influential when compared to Edinburgh Council.

 

[overthewater]

They might still demand to know what going to happen right now before its tenders go out.

 

[Jordan Adam]

They might still demand to know what going to happen right now before its tenders go out.

That is true. However I don't think LC cutting back (if they do) would make a huge difference. Plus it's too early to know.

 

[Andyh82]

I think i mentioned before but i think it's fairly telling that every Lothian change within West Lothian since last Summer has been a cut, while at First it's been increases.

The PVR increased from 50 to 55 with the November changes, and that’s not including the 43

 

[Jordan Adam]

The PVR increased from 50 to 55 with the November changes, and that’s not including the 43

Yes but that was because of the X38. I should've perhaps clarified it more clearly but i'm talking about the level and frequency of services in the 'core' West Lothian region (Livingston area / X17/X18/X27/X28/275/280/287).

 

[Weemidi135]

LCB has a plan to not make a profit for X years (il keep you speculating on what that is) the current management team where part of that team who made that decision and it’s in stone no matter how small the percentage WLC has in Lothian it’s still a percentage that requires service in West Lothian

 

[Jordan Adam]

It doesn't matter if the management team at LCB have a plan to make a loss though. With new management coming in and the council continuously unsatisfied with the performance of the group lately it really doesn't matter if there's a 'plan', not all plans work and it doesn't take much for plans to change, especially with renewed authority at the top.

Profit for the group fell by 65-70% in the period up to March 2019 when compared to the previous year, if that drop has continued (seems possible given that we're at the time of year where Lothian is filing accounts) then action will have to be taken and that action will most probably be cuts to loss making service (regardless of if there's a plan) and cuts where possible to overheads and general running costs. We won't know for sure how Lothian preformed in the last year until December when the accounts go public. But what i will say is that Mr Hall departing at such short notice, at the end of a controversial financial year does ring alarm bells and certainly isn't a coincidence.

 

[gavin1985]

Please excuse my ignorance but who technically owns or has the most ownership of LC? Could it not be integrated fully with Lothian buses or is that more council based decisions?

 

[Jordan Adam]

Please excuse my ignorance but who technically owns or has the most ownership of LC? Could it not be integrated fully with Lothian buses or is that more council based decisions?

Lothian Country is just a division of Lothian Buses, of which Edinburgh council has 91% ownership.

 

[Weemidi135]

It doesn't matter if the management team at LCB have a plan to make a loss though. With new management coming in and the council continuously unsatisfied with the performance of the group lately it really doesn't matter if there's a 'plan', not all plans work and it doesn't take much for plans to change, especially with renewed authority at the top.

Profit for the group fell by 65-70% in the period up to March 2019 when compared to the previous year, if that drop has continued (seems possible given that we're at the time of year where Lothian is filing accounts) then action will have to be taken and that action will most probably be cuts to loss making service (regardless of if there's a plan) and cuts where possible to overheads and general running costs. We won't know for sure how Lothian preformed in the last year until December when the accounts go public. But what i will say is that Mr Hall departing at such short notice, at the end of a controversial financial year does ring alarm bells and certainly isn't a coincidence.

just to point out this isn’t new management it’s just people going into different roles

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

LCB has a plan to not make a profit for X years (il keep you speculating on what that is) the current management team where part of that team who made that decision and it’s in stone no matter how small the percentage WLC has in Lothian it’s still a percentage that requires service in West Lothian

I don't doubt that there was a plan that involved a significant upfront spend and a period of ongoing losses. That much would appear to be obvious unless they though First would simply shut up shop after a few months?

However, not making a profit is one thing. If the losses are greater than anticipated, then that is another.

I appreciate that you say that whilst the MD is going, the plan was something that all the management team bought in to. However, will they merely plough on with a plan now that the main architect has gone? Especially if it perhaps isn't delivering what was anticipated?

 

[CN04NRJ]

I think it's a little insensitive to say things like 'there's always other companies who need drivers' while knowing that there's staff who work for LCB reading your posts.

It's pure speculation and nothing else to say LCB is going anywhere at the moment, although I agree that the two companies can't co exist forever.

 

[Driver362]

I don't think anyone is forgetting about the staff, however i can understand why it may bother you. However it's going to be discussed regardless, so if it bothers you my only advice really would be not to respond.



Because with the management changing i can see the council having more of a say and wanting to get rid of any excessive overheads or expenses. The fact Hall has departed at such short notice speaks for itself i think. I can't see ECB going, but i wouldn't be shocked if LMC got cut back or reduced to just contracts. Again though we'll have to wait and see. Regarding drivers, if LC was to shut then most likely the drivers would be offered positions at other depots and Lothian would cut down on recruiting for a while. As you say they're always looking for drivers so it's unlikely there would be any losses. For all we know the new management could strike a deal with First which would seem the best outcome, how this could work is up for discussion so i'll say no more at the moment.

I agree though, one of the key failures of LC has been timing, any of the good ideas they've had have been done too late or half thought out. I don't think anyone is saying for sure LC will go, however it's pretty evident without going in to too much detail that the future looks unfortunately bleak.

That said, if LC were to pull out and First revamped/increased their network to cover what do you think they'd do or should do? I'll maybe post my thoughts later....

I'm just a little annoyed that every one has jumped on the That's them shut down, and, you may be correct. You seem like an intelligent chap who know there stuff. But if you are an employee of any the two companies its a little disheartening to read people jump to conclusions about your livelihood. I think on this occasion I may heed your advice and not react. Time will tell I guess.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

I think it's a little insensitive to say things like 'there's always other companies who need drivers' while knowing that there's staff who work for LCB reading your posts.

Well said, honestly I know loads of folk have their disagreements with LCB but the people working for them are no different from me and you and it’s not fair to speculate this is the end for LCB, Especially after going this far with the phases, sure a few cuts have been made and the November changes were considered by many to be the most tragic event in human history but let’s just see where things go and hope that the March changes will bring some good in

 

[Observer]

Just remember the many people begging on here and on other places that Lothian should go into West Lothian to take on First (or of course buy them out if they were for sale), and then when they do run services they're not happy about it. Yes there have been mistakes made down the road but just because Hall is leaving doesn't mean it's all going to get scrapped.

 

[CN04NRJ]

Well said, honestly I know loads of folk have their disagreements with LCB but the people working for them are no different from me and you and it’s not fair to speculate this is the end for LCB, Especially after going this far with the phases, sure a few cuts have been made and the November changes were considered by many to be the most tragic event in human history but let’s just see where things go and hope that the March changes will bring some good in

I know what it's like to work for a bus company where redundancies are on the cards. At that time I had to stop myself from reading comments and posts online as people seem to be incredibly flippant about what they say about people's livelihoods online.

That being said I did almost decide to apply for LCB and I'm now glad I decided to go for LB.

 

[livi man]

First

I don't think anyone is forgetting about the staff, however i can understand why it may bother you. However it's going to be discussed regardless, so if it bothers you my only advice really would be not to respond.



Because with the management changing i can see the council having more of a say and wanting to get rid of any excessive overheads or expenses. The fact Hall has departed at such short notice speaks for itself i think. I can't see ECB going, but i wouldn't be shocked if LMC got cut back or reduced to just contracts. Again though we'll have to wait and see. Regarding drivers, if LC was to shut then most likely the drivers would be offered positions at other depots and Lothian would cut down on recruiting for a while. As you say they're always looking for drivers so it's unlikely there would be any losses. For all we know the new management could strike a deal with First which would seem the best outcome, how this could work is up for discussion so i'll say no more at the moment.

I agree though, one of the key failures of LC has been timing, any of the good ideas they've had have been done too late or half thought out. I don't think anyone is saying for sure LC will go, however it's pretty evident without going in to too much detail that the future looks unfortunately bleak.

That said, if LC were to pull out and First revamped/increased their network to cover what do you think they'd do or should do? I'll maybe post my thoughts later....

First wouldn't cover there work unless council pay

 

[Jordan Adam]

First wouldn't cover there work unless council pay

I disagree. During this war First will have noticed gaps in their network where Lothian done well (see the X18 for example), it really wouldn't shock me if First revised their network (post LC leaving) to include some of those links, the 275 for example could be replaced by a revised 600, 287 could probably be merged in to the 21 and so on. Much like how if First packed up Lothian would pretty much be forced to revise their network. Of course though that's all an "if".

I'm just a little annoyed that every one has jumped on the That's them shut down, and, you may be correct. You seem like an intelligent chap who know there stuff. But if you are an employee of any the two companies its a little disheartening to read people jump to conclusions about your livelihood. I think on this occasion I may heed your advice and not react. Time will tell I guess.

I understand and get your point of view, but this is a open discussion forum and these topics are going to come up regardless unfortunately. I don't think everyone is jumping on the "that's them shutting down" bandwagon, but sadly the reality is that it does seem a possibility, especially given that there's clearly more to Hall leaving than him just standing down. Maybe it's just my point of view, but i feel what many members often say on here sometimes comes across in the wrong way. Yes you're right, time will tell.

 

[overthewater]

Something will deffo have to give at LCB, however its clear with the recent changes that there are trying to boost the edinburgh routes with more passengers. Maybe the axe will fall on the 280, and whitburn first? who knows .

Its been made clear from the start that either first or LCB will see this out to the end..

 

[AndrewTaylor95]

I saw on LCBs Facebook they are having a hiring event in the Mercure Livingston https://events.indeed.com/event/38097/

 

[Weemidi135]

Something will deffo have to give at LCB, however its clear with the recent changes that there are trying to boost the edinburgh routes with more passengers. Maybe the axe will fall on the 280, and whitburn first? who knows .

Its been made clear from the start that either first or LCB will see this out to the end..

The 280 is a busy service if something where to go from a driver point of view it would be the X38

 

[Jordan Adam]

The 280 is a busy service if something where to go from a driver point of view it would be the X38

If there were to be the case wouldn't the EX2 make more sense since it covers less area and is only slightly faster? The X38 has more potential, albeit if the LC X38 were axed it wouldn't be a loss to anyone.

 

[Baileygirl]

I disagree. During this war First will have noticed gaps in their network where Lothian done well (see the X18 for example), it really wouldn't shock me if First revised their network (post LC leaving) to include some of those links, the 275 for example could be replaced by a revised 600, 287 could probably be merged in to the 21 and so on. Much like how if First packed up Lothian would pretty much be forced to revise their network. Of course though that's all an "if".

If LCB pulls out First will not put extra routes on. They will hope the council will pay for buses through Dechmont and Kirknewton. The X18 is covered by the 21 in the west and X24/X25 in the east. The 275 is already covered by the X24 (First had already pulled out of the Gyle/Edinburgh Park) the 287 is covered by the 21/X22.

 

[Jordan Adam]

If LCB pulls out First will not put extra routes on. They will hope the council will pay for buses through Dechmont and Kirknewton. The X18 is covered by the 21 in the west and X24/X25 in the east. The 275 is already covered by the X24 (First had already pulled out of the Gyle/Edinburgh Park) the 287 is covered by the 21/X22.

You say that, but you don't know that. I'm not saying First would put on extra services, but you can't say they won't either as you don't know that. I do think if LC pull out we'll see a sizeable network change at First.

 

[livi man]

First pulled the 20 from withburn to Edinburgh because it didn't pay and early morning don't pay either unless supported

 

[gavin1985]

If LCB did end up giving the "fight", then my flexibility of RidaCard use between Newbridge and Edinburgh for LCB would become pointless. It would leave the Lothian 63 only to cover the route I need and the timetable is no good for me in the afternoon for when I finish work. Whereas LCB gives me plenty of options to get to Gogar before switching to the Tram.
The route of the 63 from at Newbridge means it is certain to get caught up in the industrial estate traffic which is a joke at the best of times.

So LCB gives me an alternative than needing my own car, whereas just now we car share. Nothing against First, but my preferred choice will be Lothian, more so that I would definitely need a Lothian bus at some point on my trip to work and back. Take LCB out the picture and leaving only the 63 then I will automatically go back to car use full time.

 

[Journeyman]

It's a bit depressing to see the usual suspects gleefully predicting the end of LCB. Loadings on the X38 have been very healthy recently, and I for one really hope it survives. It's vastly superior to the shoddy vehicles First turn out, the integration with the trams and other Lothian services is really handy, the buses are much more comfortable and better maintained, and the staff are nicer too.

First have treated their customers with contempt for years, and their network in Edinburgh is now so small it's pretty much useless.

 

[scosutsut]

Assuming with decent certainty that Lothian is run like any other shareholder business that aims to generate profit...

Edinburgh Council will not dictate Lothian strategy. They'll have board representation, probably proportional to their large shareholding so to say they aren't happy with the LCB effort is unlikely - they would have voted it through in the first place. The board would have approved a business plan that would factor their plans, including we can assume multi year losses and long term strategy to bring the operation to profit. Now there is a decent chance the figures in that business case aren't stacking up any longer and the investment and strategy probably has and will get called into question.

Major shareholder companies tend not to make massive changes whilst undertaking changes of upper management, they tend to keep doing what they are doing, and make no major changes. This allows new management to come in, review activities - what should we stop doing, what should we continue doing, and what should we start doing.

Any of those options would then be presented to the board in the form of a revised, or totally new business case and at that stage your talking about decisions along the line of "stop LCB" "continue through with LCB" or "let's try something different with LCB"

So I think to suggest substantial sudden change is not only unhelpful speculation it's also not grounded in reality.

 

[CN04NRJ]

It's a bit depressing to see the usual suspects gleefully predicting the end of LCB. Loadings on the X38 have been very healthy recently, and I for one really hope it survives. It's vastly superior to the shoddy vehicles First turn out, the integration with the trams and other Lothian services is really handy, the buses are much more comfortable and better maintained, and the staff are nicer too.

First have treated their customers with contempt for years, and their network in Edinburgh is now so small it's pretty much useless.

I travel regularly on the 280/287 and X18 and loadings mostly seem pretty good, even off peak in some cases. I've noticed more people letting the First bus go and waiting for the LCB.