West Lothian buses

[TheEastCoaster]

Have Lothian abandoned the LCB website? There's no up to date timetables, and the only mention of any service changes are the ones from the start of August which redirects you to the main Lothian website anyway. There's no mention of the new changes at all. Even under the "News" page the last update was in March almost half a year ago.

The ECB have been the exact same, must be that they are using the main Lothian website for all the news currently until there’s a sense of normality

 

[Graham Alexand]

Have Lothian abandoned the LCB website? There's no up to date timetables, and the only mention of any service changes are the ones from the start of August which redirects you to the main Lothian website anyway. There's no mention of the new changes at all. Even under the "News" page the last update was in March almost half a year ago.

I think they are using the Lothian buses website because it shows you changes for all city and EastCoast buses so if you are transferring between services you cans see what other ones are changing, probably untill covid is over.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Sep 2020 ==

Updated Timetables are now available on Lothian Buses website (i'll include links to services individually)

West Lothian/Queensferry to Edinburgh
Service X18 Whitburn to Edinburgh
via Bathgate and Broxburn

"Revised timetable with improved mid-evening timetable to and from Edinburgh. First early morning journey to Whitburn extended from Broxburn to start in Edinburgh city centre."

Timetable - Lothian Buses

Lothian Buses - Local bus services in and around Edinburgh

www.lothianbuses.com

Service X27 Whitburn to Edinburgh
via Blackburn and Livingston

"Minor timetable changes. Later evening bus from Whitburn to Livingston on Mondays to Saturdays. Last Sunday evening bus from Edinburgh will extend to Whitburn"

Timetable - Lothian Buses

Lothian Buses - Local bus services in and around Edinburgh

www.lothianbuses.com

Service X28 Bathgate to Edinburgh
via Deans and Livingston

"Minor timetable changes on all days. Last evening bus from Edinburgh will extend from Deans North to Bathgate"

Timetable - Lothian Buses

Lothian Buses - Local bus services in and around Edinburgh

www.lothianbuses.com

Service 43 Queensferry to Edinburgh
via Dalmany and Blackhall

"Revised timetable with improved frequency at peak times on Mondays to Fridays"

Timetable - Lothian Buses

Lothian Buses - Local bus services in and around Edinburgh

www.lothianbuses.com

West Lothian Local Bus Services

Service 275 Bathgate to Broxburn
via Livingston, Pumpherston and Broxburn

"Revised route and timetable. Buses will now serve Bathgate Morrisons in both directions. On journeys to Bathgate Rail Station, the route is altered to operate via Menzies Road and South Bridge Street instead of Whitburn Road. Later evening journeys introduced between Livingston and Broxburn"

Timetable - Lothian Buses

Lothian Buses - Local bus services in and around Edinburgh

www.lothianbuses.com

Service 276 Loganlea to Broxburn
via Livingston, Pumpherston (Industrial Estate) and Broxburn

"Previously service X17, now renumbered to service 276 operating between Loganlea, Livingston and Broxburn. Revised timetable with a later journey in each direction."

Timetable - Lothian Buses

Lothian Buses - Local bus services in and around Edinburgh

www.lothianbuses.com

Service 280 Blackridge to Livingston
via Armadale, Bathgate and Deans

"Revised timetable, daytime frequency remains every 30-mins. The Sunday late evening timetable is improved with later journeys to match the Monday to Saturday timetable"

Timetable - Lothian Buses

Lothian Buses - Local bus services in and around Edinburgh

www.lothianbuses.com

NEW Service 281 Fauldhouse to Livingston
via Whitburn, Bathgate and Deans

"New service. Operates on a 30 min frequency Monday-Saturday between Livingston and Fauldhouse via Bathgate, Birniehill, and Whitburn. The route between Livingston and Bathgate is the same as the 280, so the daytime frequency on this section increases to every 15-mins. Between Bathgate and Fauldhouse, the service will operate via Morrisons, Birniehill, M8 Distribution Park, East Whitburn, Whitburn and Longridge"

Timetable - Lothian Buses

Lothian Buses - Local bus services in and around Edinburgh

www.lothianbuses.com

LothianCountry NightBus

Service N28 Edinburgh to Bathgate

"Service re-introduced on all days of the week with 1-journey per night from Edinburgh to Bathgate. The route is altered and will now follow the daytime equivalent of the X28, serving Kirknewton, St John’s Hospital and Knightsridge, and will extend to Bathgate. Within the City, all bus stops along the route will be served."

Timetable - Lothian Buses

Lothian Buses - Local bus services in and around Edinburgh

www.lothianbuses.com

Service N43 Edinburgh to Queensferry

"Service re-introduced on all days of the week with 1-journey per night from Edinburgh to Queensferry"

Timetable - Lothian Buses

Lothian Buses - Local bus services in and around Edinburgh

www.lothianbuses.com

The following services will not operate
Service X43 Queensferry to Edinburgh (Limited Stop)
Service X38 Linlithgow Bridge to Edinburgh
GreenArrow express service EX2 Linlithgow to Edinburgh

 

[TheEastCoaster]

Had a dream LCB brought back the X38 and actually listened to feedback and managed to improve on it, for starters they introduced an additional X38 starting from Kirkliston that not only ran as a double decker, but it won over the entire area and with that Lothian were able to make up for any losses they made.

also in hindsight I realised that I have some weird dreams

 

[PaulMc7]

Any predictions of First making changes to counteract those made by Lothian?

Must admit I don't know the West Lothian area at all so I don't have an idea of what services do well for both operators and in which areas. The only area I've ever stopped off in for longer than 5 mins is Livingston to go shopping with my girlfriend twice

 

[Jordan Adam]

Any predictions of First making changes to counteract those made by Lothian?

Must admit I don't know the West Lothian area at all so I don't have an idea of what services do well for both operators and in which areas. The only area I've ever stopped off in for longer than 5 mins is Livingston to go shopping with my girlfriend twice

Wouldn't rule it out but i can't see much changing. Maybe at most they'll increase the X25 to a 10 minute frequency by adding a new short working from Livingston to Bathgate or extend the X23/X24 through to Bathgate offering a 7/8 minute frequency with the X25.

Much of the competition here is going to come down to fares rather than routes as the X25 and 280/281 between Livingston and Bathgate are much the same, albeit the X25 is slightly faster as it doesn't go in to St John's.

Even if Lothian gain passengers and First loose some the opposite is going to happen at Broxburn/Newbridge as Lothian are down to just the half hourly X18 now that the X17 has been replaced and the 275 doesn't look to be returning to full route yet. As i noted before from the Newbridge corridor pre-lockdown Lothian had up to 15 buses per hour, now it's down to just 2.

Some have questioned if the whole reason the 276 and 281 are running is just to give furloughed drivers work to do. Although arguably if that were the case the X17 and 275 would've been extended back to full route.

 

[mb88]

Some have questioned if the whole reason the 276 and 281 are running is just to give furloughed drivers work to do. Although arguably if that were the case the X17 and 275 would've been extended back to full route.

One particular member of the forum has quite bizarrely speculated that Lothian have registered a whole new route simply to 'give drivers something to do'. Let's not pretend it's anything more than that.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Wouldn't rule it out but i can't see much changing. Maybe at most they'll increase the X25 to a 10 minute frequency by adding a new short working from Livingston to Bathgate or extend the X23/X24 through to Bathgate offering a 7/8 minute frequency with the X25.

Much of the competition here is going to come down to fares rather than routes as the X25 and 280/281 between Livingston and Bathgate are much the same, albeit the X25 is slightly faster as it doesn't go in to St John's.

Even if Lothian gain passengers and First loose some the opposite is going to happen at Broxburn/Newbridge as Lothian are down to just the half hourly X18 now that the X17 has been replaced and the 275 doesn't look to be returning to full route yet. As i noted before from the Newbridge corridor pre-lockdown Lothian had up to 15 buses per hour, now it's down to just 2.

Some have questioned if the whole reason the 276 and 281 are running is just to give furloughed drivers work to do. Although arguably if that were the case the X17 and 275 would've been extended back to full route.

Absolutely, hence my comments on Friday. You’re right to highlight that the battle is really within Livi and Bathgate and if First are going to up things, what you suggest (perhaps another 3/4 vehicles) might be what they do.

The scope for WL - Edinburgh was always more limited to my mind; the EX1/2 was best described as a bold move. See what happens!

 

[Jordan Adam]

Absolutely, hence my comments on Friday. You’re right to highlight that the battle is really within Livi and Bathgate and if First are going to up things, what you suggest (perhaps another 3/4 vehicles) might be what they do.

The scope for WL - Edinburgh was always more limited to my mind; the EX1/2 was best described as a bold move. See what happens!

Extending the X23/X24 would be quite a low risk move, it could probably be done with two vehicles. Extending the X23 to Bathgate would give First a faster alternative to the X28, although again i don't suspect demand to be particularly high as most passengers going from the Calder Road area in Edinburgh to Bathgate would just get a bus to Edinburgh Park then the train.

I agree the Edinburgh - Livingston market really isn't that strong, the A71 corridor in particular is badly over served, first only extended the X22 to protect the X23 from the X27/X28, i can guarantee if First or Lothian pulled out the X22/X23 or X27/X28 would be cut back to half hourly. There is however more demand on the Edinburgh - A89/A899 - Livingston corridor as Broxburn doesn't really have a proper train station*. Hence why i raised the point about Lothian cutting the X18 as it will leave this market open to First seeing as they offer double the level of service in to Edinburgh through the X24/X25. Really it's the areas where no train connection is offered where you see the highest demand, rightly as most people have said Livingston to Bathgate is the key corridor.

*There is a train station at Uphall but it's very much out the way for most people.

The main issue with the EX1/EX2 was they didn't go anywhere, for them to work you'd really want the EX1 to go to Whitburn and the EX2 to Falkirk. No amount of smart marketing and liveries is going to get people on buses when the demand simple does not exist and that's what we've seen with GreenArrow. The other thing that killed off the EX1/EX2 was that they weren't that much faster than the X18/X38 and they charged higher fares, who's going to pay a premium for a bus service that at best is only 5-10 minutes faster than the alternatives and is much slower than the train.

 

[overthewater]

One particular member of the forum has quite bizarrely speculated that Lothian have registered a whole new route simply to 'give drivers something to do'. Let's not pretend it's anything more than that.

Why not restart the X38? why have a brand new route? Why not restart 275 back to Gyle? why not keep the 15min service to Edinburgh from Newbridge?

 

[Graham Alexand]

Why not restart the X38? why have a brand new route? Why not restart 275 back to Gyle? why not keep the 15min service to Edinburgh from Newbridge?

There is a 15min frequency with first bus at the moment being X24 and X25, also the X38 (First bus) operates every 20mins.

I think that the X38 (LothianCountry) wont be reinstated because first operates a full service (Stirling-Falkirk-Linlithgow-Winchburgh-Kirkliston-Edinburgh) where as LothianCountry only operate a small portion of the X38 (Linlithgow-Winchburgh-Kirkliston-Newbridge- Edinburgh) plus there is more options for ticketing on First Bus and can link up to as far as Glasgow.

This may be unrelated but what if they renumbered the X17 to 276 because when full routes are reinstated the 276 will go to Edinburgh Park giving more links to people that work in Edinburgh Park instead of switching between buses.

 

[overthewater]

There is a 15min frequency with first bus at the moment being X24 and X25, this may be unrelated but what if they renumbered the X17 to 276 because when full routes are reinstated the 276 will go to Edinburgh Park giving more links to people that work in Edinburgh Park, just a thought though.

SO they wouldn't reinstate a 30min service but would happily put in 15min service?

 

[Graham Alexand]

SO they wouldn't reinstate a 30min service but would happily put in 15min service?

What do you mean?

 

[overthewater]

What do you mean?

YOU said "This may be unrelated but what if they renumbered the X17 to 276 because when full routes are reinstated the 276 will go to Edinburgh Park giving more links to people that work in Edinburgh Park instead of switching between buses. "

Why would they wouldn't reinstate the 275 first before going all in with 15min service IE extending the 276 at the same time.

 

[Graham Alexand]

YOU said "This may be unrelated but what if they renumbered the X17 to 276 because when full routes are reinstated the 276 will go to Edinburgh Park giving more links to people that work in Edinburgh Park instead of switching between buses. "

Why would they wouldn't reinstate the 275 first before going all in with 15min service IE extending the 276 at the same time.

Sorry i understand now, i was referring to all Lothian Country routes going back to a full working timetable, yes the 275 and 276 would combine to make a 15 Minute frequency.

 

[Jordan Adam]

One particular member of the forum has quite bizarrely speculated that Lothian have registered a whole new route simply to 'give drivers something to do'. Let's not pretend it's anything more than that.

To be fair i can see why people think that, but then if it were the case why haven't they reinstated the X17, 275 or X38 instead.

There is a 15min frequency with first bus at the moment being X24 and X25, also the X38 (First bus) operates every 20mins.

The First X38 actually operates on a 15 minute frequency.

Sorry i understand now, i was referring to all Lothian Country routes were back at full working timetables, yes the 275 and 276 would combine to make a 15 Minute frequency.

I can't really see demand for a 15 minute frequency to the Gyle Centre. The 276 is an odd route, it's very much obsolete as all the links it provides within Livingston are offered by other routes LC routes. I really just don't understand why they're putting the 281 to Fauldhouse but not extending the 276, it seems entirely illogical.

 

[Graham Alexand]

To be fair i can see why people think that, but then if it were the case why haven't they reinstated the X17, 275 or X38 instead.



The First X38 actually operates on a 15 minute frequency.



I can't really see demand for a 15 minute frequency to the Gyle Centre. The 276 is an odd route, it's very much obsolete as all the links it provides within Livingston are offered by other routes LC routes. I really just don't understand why they're putting the 281 to Fauldhouse but not extending the 276, it seems entirely illogical.

Sorry i thought the X38 (First Bus) was still doing a covid-19 reduced service.

It may seen illogical but the 276 serves Loganlea, West Calder, Polbeth, Craigshill which dont have a direct link to Edinburgh Park/ The gyle.

 

[overthewater]

which dont have a direct link to Edinburgh Park/ The gyle.

Thats not the reason why its being questioned, its the reason why would they extend another service when the existing service has even been reinstated?

 

[Graham Alexand]

Thats not the reason why its being questioned, its the reason why would they extend another service when the existing service has even been reinstated?

Thats what i mean both the 275 and 276 will operate to Edinburgh Park/ The Gyle (The 275 will be reinstated also)

 

[Bus9120UK]

Sorry i thought the X38 (First Bus) was still doing a covid-19 reduced service.

It may seen illogical but the 276 serves Loganlea, West Calder, Polbeth, Craigshill which dont have a direct link to Edinburgh Park/ The gyle.

Yes, I think it would be a good idea if the 276 was extended to Edinburgh Park, however it is still a pain that we have lost of easiest service to Livingston.If this did happen I am guessing 275 would come too.

 

[Graham Alexand]

Yes, I think it would be a good idea if the 276 was extended to Edinburgh Park, however it is still a pain that we have lost of easiest service to Livingston.If this did happen I am guessing 275 would come too.

Are you meaning the X17 going down Livingston road (A899)

 

[Bus9120UK]

Are you meaning the X17 going down Livingston road (A899)

Previously X17 went from Edinburgh to Fauldhouse via corstorphine and Livingston centre but now as it has been cut and remembered we no longer have it. I'd have to go to the city centre or sighthill ti gst an X27/8

 

[Jordan Adam]

Sorry i thought the X38 (First Bus) was still doing a covid-19 reduced service.

It may seen illogical but the 276 serves Loganlea, West Calder, Polbeth, Craigshill which dont have a direct link to Edinburgh Park/ The gyle.

But the 276 doesn't go to Edinburgh Park and i doubt it will, there really isn't demand for 4 buses per hour (there's barely enough demand for the 275 on it's own).

The reason the 276 seems illogical to me is because north/east of The Centre all it's links are provided by other LC services. Loganlea, West Calder, Polbeth are all well served by First and are quite small villages so there's really not demand anyway especially once you include the train. Finally how to LC expect to get Fauldhouse passengers when they only offer a slow half hourly service to Livingston and the service that takes a direct route to Fauldhouse terminates short.

 

[Graham Alexand]

Previously X17 went from Edinburgh to Fauldhouse via corstorphine and Livingston centre but now as it has been cut and remembered we no longer have it. I'd have to go to the city centre or sighthill ti gst an X27/8

Oh that gave me an idea, what if hourly the 276 was extended to Fauldhouse meaning Stoneyburn and Bents will have new links and will fill in the gap between Addiewell (Loganlea) and Fauldhouse

 

[Jordan Adam]

Oh that gave me an idea, what if hourly the 276 was extended to Fauldhouse meaning Stoneyburn and Bents will have new links and will fill in the gap between Addiewell (Loganlea) and Fauldhouse

At an operational perspective you'd be just as well extending the 276 to Fauldhouse half hourly. Extending it hourly would just lead to excessive layover. Even then the new links that the 276 would provide are somewhat insignificant as demand would be so low.

We need to stop looking at things at a single operator perspective and take in to account other bus services and rail connections. It all comes down to competition and demand, there's no point creating a new route if there's low to no demand and stable competition.

 

[mb88]

Why not restart the X38? why have a brand new route? Why not restart 275 back to Gyle? why not keep the 15min service to Edinburgh from Newbridge?

Indeed. If they wanted to 'give drivers something to do' they would have done all that.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

Indeed. If they wanted to 'give drivers something to do' they would have done all that.

Exactly! the whole “giving drivers something to do till they get transferred to the city routes” stuff is nonsense and honestly a little bit disrespectful.

regardless of how folk feel about LCB if it’s strong or in the middle or just flat out oppose them, they still provide a service to the people and the drivers working out in Deans do a fantastic job, especially in the city, and seeing folk talk like their job and network is on the line and eventually going to be scrapped is just tiresome.

I know some folk have a preference to First and that’s fine, I’m trying not to be bias here And I get there’s competition and that’s generally how it works, but let’s not be quick to assume LCB will be going bye bye please!

Being honest, have LCB always had good ideas? I can confidently say no, and points have been made on this thread regarding their mistakes and some I agree on, like the lack of proper weekly and monthly tickets, a ridacard and the initive to tackle certain routes too late (X38)

However being the wonderful optimsit I am, I can look past all that because well I use Lothian Buses, and LCB when I travel to Queensferry or West Lothian, which I know some people do prefer, I know folk say they run light or empty most of the time, and while the loads aren’t exactly high compared to service 30, they aren’t dead 24/7, like the city routes in peak time for example, but First pick up a fair load too, so we can agree it’s 50/50 on passanger loadings, also consider West Lothian lucky that they have two separate operators offering links to the city which means more buses for them!

Its been over 2 years since the West Lothian operation, and while this expansion has been deemed “controversial“, I’d be lying if I said that Lothian was eventually going to move back to West Lothian sooner or later, maybe it should of been earlier than 2018, heck if they expanded at the same time East Coast Buses did then folk would be overwhelmed!

I couldn’t tell you how the future is going to be for LCB, but I’m optimistic, and I think that they do a good service regardless of what other folk think, I hope they stay and i hope they improve and end up making a big impact on the areas they serve, I mean it’s not often you can get a bus that can offer you an all day ticket from Bathgate to say North Berwick!

I may vent about any issues I find with LCB, but I still remain loyal to them, as far as I’m aware, they were dedicated enough to get a garage across from their competition, now that is brave haha!

sorry for this out of the blue vent but I felt I needed to say that, I hope nobody takes offence!

 

[CN04NRJ]

Indeed. If they wanted to 'give drivers something to do' they would have done all that.

Just stopping by to echo how ridiculous I think this premise is. Why bring staff back off furlough on 100% company paid wage just to 'give them something to do'?

Odd.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Exactly! the whole “giving drivers something to do till they get transferred to the city routes” stuff is nonsense and honestly a little bit disrespectful.

regardless of how folk feel about LCB if it’s strong or in the middle or just flat out oppose them, they still provide a service to the people and the drivers working out in Deans do a fantastic job, especially in the city, and seeing folk talk like their job and network is on the line and eventually going to be scrapped is just tiresome.

I know some folk have a preference to First and that’s fine, I’m trying not to be bias here And I get there’s competition and that’s generally how it works, but let’s not be quick to assume LCB will be going bye bye please!

Being honest, have LCB always had good ideas? I can confidently say no, and points have been made on this thread regarding their mistakes and some I agree on, like the lack of proper weekly and monthly tickets, a ridacard and the initive to tackle certain routes too late (X38)

However being the wonderful optimsit I am, I can look past all that because well I use Lothian Buses, and LCB when I travel to Queensferry or West Lothian, which I know some people do prefer, I know folk say they run light or empty most of the time, and while the loads aren’t exactly high compared to service 30, they aren’t dead 24/7, like the city routes in peak time for example, but First pick up a fair load too, so we can agree it’s 50/50 on passanger loadings, also consider West Lothian lucky that they have two separate operators offering links to the city which means more buses for them!

Its been over 2 years since the West Lothian operation, and while this expansion has been deemed “controversial“, I’d be lying if I said that Lothian was eventually going to move back to West Lothian sooner or later, maybe it should of been earlier than 2018, heck if they expanded at the same time East Coast Buses did then folk would be overwhelmed!

I couldn’t tell you how the future is going to be for LCB, but I’m optimistic, and I think that they do a good service regardless of what other folk think, I hope they stay and i hope they improve and end up making a big impact on the areas they serve, I mean it’s not often you can get a bus that can offer you an all day ticket from Bathgate to say North Berwick!

I may vent about any issues I find with LCB, but I still remain loyal to them, as far as I’m aware, they were dedicated enough to get a garage across from their competition, now that is brave haha!

sorry for this out of the blue vent but I felt I needed to say that, I hope nobody takes offence!

You are perfectly free to have a vent; anybody can as long as it's structured, cogent and they meet the forum rules. In response to your comments, I'd say the following...

In respect of the closure speculation, there will always be some who make such crass comments. Not wishing to get into "whataboutery", there were a number of (pro Lothian) posters who were stating that First would be pulling out, citing the evidence of North Devon or Northampton to substantiate their claims. As it is, I don't see much talk on this thread about LCB pulling out and closing the depot. Certainly, the changes that have been made by LCB in Livingston indicate that they are simply refocusing and consolidating on the main flows.

To turn to your more emotive, more subjective points, I would say the following. No-one is disputing the quality of service that Lothian provides. Travelling on a nicely appointed Eclipse is much better than a Streetlite. No-one is saying that Lothian didn't have the right to launch such a competitive venture. No-one can argue that they haven't shown commitment and have invested in fleet, premises and providing a comprehensive network. No-one is saying that the drivers aren't working hard or providing a good service to their customers. I have no time for people speculating on the futures of any firm, and for the reasons you state.

However, your "loyalty" seems to colour your perception of fair comment and observations. There are a number of pro-First posters but equally, there are some people (like me) who have no allegiance either way. It may seem prurient to stand back and watch the unfolding events, in the same way as watching a boxing match when you have no commitment to either party. What it is, however, is a very interesting episode given the two very differing strategies that both businesses have employed. Certainly, I struggle to recall any sort of incursion by an operator of the size and scale and with the sheer level of investment as we've seen by Lothian in WL.

You rightly say that an expansion into WL earlier may have been too much with the taking on of the East Lothian operations. That's absolutely right. It still doesn't invalidate the view that they may have missed the boat, First having invested in the area. Those views aren't mutually exclusive. Similarly, whilst we can applaud businesses for making commitment and investment, we can similarly question the rationale behind this. The EX1 and EX2 being the most obvious examples. For any firm to make such a commitment on a new route is rare; I look at Stagecoach's South West Falcon as a comparator, but that was a service that had a definite USP (to a major traffic objective in Bristol Airport) with substantial potential catchment from two cities. Meanwhile, the Lothian routes had to rely on gleaning traffic from some suburbs not linked by the train and a bit of RBS traffic. Gricers can get aerated and complain that operators don't try new routes (and with some justification) but there are sound reasons why traffic and passenger flows are established as they are, which is why many competitive forays are simply carbon copies. Again, you can both applaud and question why Lothian have "done something different" on some of their routes.

In respect of who's getting the most passengers, well no-one knows except First as they can compare with the pre-competion loadings. Suffice to say that the general view is that First are shading it and that's not unexpected. They had the power of incumbency, have been a little sharper in some respects with fares etc. Of course, some people will have loyalty to Lothian. That might be because they are avowed fans, like yourself, and/or because they get certain journeys or ticket interavailability that they won't get from First. The reality (and twirly passes contribute to this massively as there is no price tie in) is that most will get the first bus that comes along.

The question now is that Lothian have now amended their routes and have focused more on the key Bathgate to Livi corridors and a few others within WL, matching First on some of those. What do First do now in response, if anything?

 

[smtglasgow]

Without raking over old arguments, I think that when Lothian moved into West Lothian they probably thought they were pushing at an open door and that First would either pull out or come to an arrangement. Obviously that didn’t happen. I’m assuming there has always been a more strategic reason for going to West Lothian other than simply fancying a bit more territory.

Edinburgh is still the strongest part of the Scottish economy by some distance and, pre-Covid, the city region was expected to keep on growing. The city housing market can’t cope, so the expansion is mainly to the west and east. East Coast Buses will be the beneficiary of the expansion around Tranent/Cockenzie. Moving into West Lothian makes sense if you expect the area to the west of the city to grown exponentially. Covid might delay things, but it’ll happen eventually. Having an operation to the west makes sense when you think of this expansion. But we’re years from all this actually happening, so can LCB keep its head above water long enough to (eventually) reap the benefits?

Which is a long-winded way of saying that I reckon Lothian might go all in and put up with losses for a while yet - and (for the same reasons) possibly explains why First are hanging around.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Without raking over old arguments, I think that when Lothian moved into West Lothian they probably thought they were pushing at an open door and that First would either pull out or come to an arrangement. Obviously that didn’t happen. I’m assuming there has always been a more strategic reason for going to West Lothian other than simply fancying a bit more territory.

Edinburgh is still the strongest part of the Scottish economy by some distance and, pre-Covid, the city region was expected to keep on growing. The city housing market can’t cope, so the expansion is mainly to the west and east. East Coast Buses will be the beneficiary of the expansion around Tranent/Cockenzie. Moving into West Lothian makes sense if you expect the area to the west of the city to grown exponentially. Covid might delay things, but it’ll happen eventually. Having an operation to the west makes sense when you think of this expansion. But we’re years from all this actually happening, so can LCB keep its head above water long enough to (eventually) reap the benefits?

Which is a long-winded way of saying that I reckon Lothian might go all in and put up with losses for a while yet - and (for the same reasons) possibly explains why First are hanging around.

Think those are fair comments.

I think people obviously remembered stuff like North Devon and assumed that the First of 2018 would be the same as First 2012 despite evidence to the contrary. Also, the view that this might be more lucrative territory has been mentioned before (in terms of Winchburgh) but on a wider basis, it's probably seen as a growth area.

Of course, the whole impact of Covid on ridership and economics has skewed things. Still, I don't see either upping sticks any time soon and for the same reasons

• Lothian have made a substantial high profile investment and not on a whim
• First can't be seen to back down against such a high profile incursion or else it will be open season on all

That dynamic alone makes for interesting viewing