West Lothian buses

[overthewater]

The main issue was if LB were to have taken over the entire First East Lothian operation it would have never got past the competition commission, the only way that was possible was for a separate company to be set up, hence ECB was formed by TfE.
TfE was set up to run the trams and to manage the tram/bus integration (the latter on behalf of Edinburgh Council)

Surly there would swap East council share in LB to ECB?

 

[Kent Dreamer]

East Coast Buses is a subsidiary of Lothian Buses, just the same as Edinburgh Tours, Lothian Country and Lothian Motorcoaches.

 

[Darklord8899]

East Coast Buses is a subsidiary of Lothian Buses, just the same as Edinburgh Tours, Lothian Country and Lothian Motorcoaches.

Yes, I stand corrected, you are completely right.

 

[tbtc]

I could have understood if Lothian decided that they had enough on their hands with the launch of Motorcoaches and the conversion of another route to Airlink (plus all of the other associated changes at the moment, including the arrival of fifty "nearly new" buses).

I could have understood it if, in light of the First retrenchment, Lothian decided that there was a market for an Edinburgh Park - Gyle - Newbridge - Broxburn - Pumpherston - St Johns - Livingston service, which would compliment the "new" First services/ fill in some gaps in First's new network etc.

Maybe even a version that did Edinburgh Park - Gyle - Newbridge - Kirkliston - Winchburgh (given the changes to the 38).

If First want to concentrate on services into central Edinburgh then there's a gap in the market for Edinburgh Park/ Gyle services.

But the extension west of Livingston seems a big gamble, and the X27/X28 a very provocative move. Presumably they are hoping that First lack the energy/ resources to compete back in Edinburgh, and they may well be right, but that's still a gamble. This competition just seems very unnecessary - especially if the 63 is such a marginal route that it requires subsidy (but the new service from the Gyle to Newbridge can run commercially seven days a week).

Not convinced! (much as people enjoy "bus wars")

 

[oldman]

East Coast Buses is a subsidiary of Lothian Buses, just the same as Edinburgh Tours, Lothian Country and Lothian Motorcoaches.

Although there is a subsidiary called Lothian Country Buses, confusingly Lothian Country services are operated by Lothian Buses Ltd.

 

[MrHopefull]

Lothian Country Buses is part of Lothian Buses, East Coast Buses are not. ECB is owned by TfE and was set up as a separate, stand alone company, with its own accounts, it's own assets, its own vechicle/route registrations, hence LB will never rename ECB as it is not theirs to rename!

I would consider this false as every document says ECB part of Lothian family all of our old buses are from Lothian, we have Lothian engineers from marine and our general manager also manages Lothian country buses and Lothian Motor Coaches

 

[MrHopefull]

Surly there would swap East council share in LB to ECB?

I'm sure they would if ECB wasn't part of LB
But we are

 

[overthewater]

But it not is it? its own by TFE, and its TFE along with the three councils that own LB. It just feels like dogs dinner.

Back on topic, Many passengers on the Whitburn - Blackburn - Livingston route use Blue bue 701, and it has loyal customer base. The big question is, while LCB be cheaper that Blue bus?

 

[Lothian_Bus]

north Berwick are paid the same 10.61 as the rest of us ECB drivers, it's simply just another location where they run the majority of 124/x5 out off.
so if we got the go ahead for strike north Berwick would not have any buses from Edinburgh

You should get paid the same and I hope that this is something they will look at. I use ECB sometimes and the service levels are at the same high standard as the regular Lothian services.

 

[oldman]

But it not is it? its own by TFE, and its TFE along with the three councils that own LB. It just feels like dogs dinner.

You are half right. It looks like a dog's dinner, but ECB is a subsidiary of Lothian Buses Ltd (as is Edinburgh Bus Tours). LB is underwriting ECB's losses.

The company structure means that losses in West Lothian will be less easy to identify than those in the East.

 

[MrHopefull]

You should get paid the same and I hope that this is something they will look at. I use ECB sometimes and the service levels are at the same high standard as the regular Lothian services.

it's not even the wage that annoys us
we where quite happy untill they mentioned new LCB routes paying 11.50ph .

we get no overtime rates, all our breaks are in paid, long hours (I could be at work for 11 hours).
just seems a bit unfair

 

[MrHopefull]

You are half right. It looks like a dog's dinner, but ECB is a subsidiary of Lothian Buses Ltd (as is Edinburgh Bus Tours). LB is underwriting ECB's losses.

The company structure means that losses in West Lothian will be less easy to identify than those in the East.

I understand ECB making losses but I fail to understand why they would add more services like our x7 to every 30 mins
when half our buses are dead during the day apart from north Berwick and sponge passes

 

[overthewater]

I understand ECB making losses but I fail to understand why they would add more services like our x7 to every 30 mins
when half our buses are dead during the day apart from north Berwick and sponge passes

That's strange, First couldn't make a profit and it seems ECB can't either. The main reason is try and knock out Perryman service 253, plus the fact a major housing development is being built right now on the outskirts of Haddington right in between the X7 so plenty of new passengers. Your right, to question why X7 to run every 30min between Dunbar and Haddington.

If I was LCB would would revise 104:

104: Hourly as current route
104A: Hourly Edinburgh to Tranent only with possibility of doing a circular around the scheme ie Caslte road etc
106: retimed to provide 30min service between Tranent and Haddington.

Is there a demand for Macmerry to edinburgh every 30mins. I still dont get why 26 runs every 15mins from Tranent to Cockenzie. Again i would cut that to every 30mins and reuse the buses and making the 104 every 20 mins to Tranent merge it with the X44.

 

[MrHopefull]

That's strange, First couldn't make a profit and it seems ECB can't either. The main reason is try and knock out Perryman service 253, plus the fact a major housing development is being built right now on the outskirts of Haddington right in between the X7 so plenty of new passengers. Your right, to question why X7 to run every 30min between Dunbar and Haddington.

If I was LCB would would revise 104:

104: Hourly as current route
104A: Hourly Edinburgh to Tranent only with possibility of doing a circular around the scheme ie Caslte road etc
106: retimed to provide 30min service between Tranent and Haddington.

Is there a demand for Macmerry to edinburgh every 30mins. I still dont get why 26 runs every 15mins from Tranent to Cockenzie. Again i would cut that to every 30mins and reuse the buses and making the 104 every 20 mins to Tranent merge it with the X44.

honestly sometimes I think the scheduling department Is run by monkeys.
124 and 113 is our highest demand buses, all the rest are a hit or miss

 

[overthewater]

It is...

 

[backontrack]

Maybe even a version that did Edinburgh Park - Gyle - Newbridge - Kirkliston - Winchburgh (given the changes to the 38).

If First want to concentrate on services into central Edinburgh then there's a gap in the market for Edinburgh Park/ Gyle services.

Combine the two! Run Edinburgh-Haymarket-Murrayfield-Calder Road-Napier Sighthill-Edinburgh College-Edinburgh Park-Gyle Centre-Ratho Station-Newbridge-Kirkliston-Winchburgh (perhaps with a couple of daily buses to/from Linlithgow).

 

[Jordan Adam]

plus all of the other associated changes at the moment, including the arrival of fifty "nearly new" buses.

Small rather snobbish point i need to make but they're 7/8 years old so i'd more regard them Mid life rather than nearly new. Certainly to me nearly new means only a few years old... Anyway

 

[156478]

For years there were fast buses to Edinburgh, X1, X2 the X23, X24, X32. But over time and along with the improved rail services the express buses have whittle away. I still think there is a market somewhere, but its more for Edinburgh park/gyle area and OR West Lothian to North Edinburgh or City By pass.

Ah I rememeber the "Express services" booklet. To me It was almost deliberate how these services were in this obscure easily missed booklet of timetables and not more usefully in the timetables of the routes they shadowed. Maybe I am cynical but once a day peak services each way are really wasteful on the resouces of empty running in one direction, limited stop and not picking up passengers and buses tied up in congestion they maybe eventually wanted these services to vanish in time. Those X1s and X2s were they not Diamond Express services every hour at one point, to then vanish and then they came back to hourly to then get slashed to pieces again if my memory serves me right?

 

[Darklord8899]

I still dont get why 26 runs every 15mins from Tranent to Cockenzie. Again i would cut that to every 30mins and reuse the buses and making the 104 every 20 mins to Tranent merge it with the X44.

The 26 doesn't run every 15 min between Cockenzie and Tranent.
Did you mean Cockenzie and Seton Sands?

 

[tbtc]

Combine the two! Run Edinburgh-Haymarket-Murrayfield-Calder Road-Napier Sighthill-Edinburgh College-Edinburgh Park-Gyle Centre-Ratho Station-Newbridge-Kirkliston-Winchburgh (perhaps with a couple of daily buses to/from Linlithgow).

There's possibility a market for an Edinburgh Park - Gyle - Ratho Station (- Newbridge) combined frequency of every ten/ fifteen minutes, given the various branches towards South Queensferry/ Ratho/ Winchburgh/ Pumpherston. That way, any longer distance passengers (e.g. off the 38 or 747) may be able to change onto a "turn up and go" service towards the Gyle etc - without disrupting long distance routes into the city centre (e.g. 38).

It seems one of these things that goes full circle though - in the '90s the 63/64 ran via the Gyle, journeys on the current 38 do so (before the forthcoming changes), but operators change between "diverting into the Gyle allows us to serve additional markets that the train can't provide" and "diverting into the Gyle delays things for longer distance passengers heading to the city centre and makes the train more attractive".

Small rather snobbish point i need to make but they're 7/8 years old so i'd more regard them Mid life rather than nearly new. Certainly to me nearly new means only a few years old... Anyway

You're absolutely right - of course - I was being slightly tongue in cheek, given the way that Lothian are "hiding" the age of these double deckers and upgrading them to look like they are fairly modern - but I should have explained myself better - apologies.

Maybe I am cynical but once a day peak services each way are really wasteful on the resouces of empty running in one direction, limited stop and not picking up passengers and buses tied up in congestion they maybe eventually wanted these services to vanish in time

The Express services were something that SMT/ First could never make their minds up about. Stagecoach backed their Express services from Fife into Edinburgh, grew them, invested in them, saw passenger numbers rise. First though... they had initiatives, like the X22/X24 then let them dwindle back, they invested in new routes like the 737/747 then seemed to lose interest.

Back in the '90s you could run a peak express from West Lothian into Edinburgh then (instead of running empty back to the depot at Deans or wherever) use it as a peak service from the city centre to Herriot Watt (61) or the Gyle (erm, I think it was C12 but I could well be wrong!), so that you got two journeys out of it - with a similar afternoon service from the Gyle/ Herriot Watt into Edinburgh before the rush hour service back to West Lothian.

Then LRT/ Lothian started serving Herriot Watt and the Gyle properly (before the millennium City - Sighthill - Herriot Watt used to only get a half hourly service on the 22/ 25/ 65; the 45 via Juniper Green is virtually unchanged as far as the city centre) and introduced various services to the Gyle area and the market changed (there were office parks around the Gyle area well before the shopping centre opened).

 

[overthewater]

Ah I rememeber the "Express services" booklet. To me It was almost deliberate how these services were in this obscure easily missed booklet of timetables and not more usefully in the timetables of the routes they shadowed. Maybe I am cynical but once a day peak services each way are really wasteful on the resources of empty running in one direction, limited stop and not picking up passengers and buses tied up in congestion they maybe eventually wanted these services to vanish in time.

Those services were very busy back in the 90s, but over time the services were cut back, the timetables did appear in one big booklet.

Those X1s and X2s were they not Diamond Express services every hour at one point, to then vanish and then they came back to hourly to then get slashed to pieces again if my memory serves me right?

Yes in 2002? Those X1 and X2 were hourly but were also cut back. I dont remember the x1 ever going, X1 still had hourly service from 6am until 10am until 2010? but by the time the new travel lined open the express were on its last legs.

The 26 doesn't run every 15 min between Cockenzie and Tranent.
Did you mean Cockenzie and Seton Sands?

I meant Prestonpans to Trenent

The Express services were something that SMT/ First could never make their minds up about. Stagecoach backed their Express services from Fife into Edinburgh, grew them, invested in them, saw passenger numbers rise. First though... they had initiatives, like the X22/X24 then let them dwindle back, they invested in new routes like the 737/747 then seemed to lose interest.

Ah yes the X22/X24 service lasted around 10months, given Deans south - St Johns h - M8 or Bus station - m8 to Edinburgh.

737: Dunfermline to Airport
757: Livingston to Airport.

Remember the old X15? there were plans to extend back to the Airport in 2005? but the airport said no.. But you were right about the peak Gyle service C12

 

[TheEastCoaster]

This is all very exciting stuff, despite first still having runs in West Lothian this is only set to be the beginning of something Major.

I like how the X27/X28 will be running via Fountainpark instead of Gorgie seeing as it's usually the faster route to Calder Road. wasn't expecting it to be limited stop the entire service but i think it'll encourage folk to travel the faster route through the city, i just wonder what stops they'll serve between West Approach Road and Sighthill.

The 275 is a good idea, it compliments the 20 between Edinburgh Park and Ratho Station, since you have many options around that area to continue into town, but that leads me wondering what the fare/dayticket structure will be? i assume in the City Zone Daytickets and LB Ridacards will still be valid. but i wonder if they'll do something similar to the CountyPlus dayticket on ECB? it'd be daft not to have something like that, especully if you're wanting folk in West Lothian to have options to continue on other Lothian/East Coast services

Hopefully if this proves to be successful we'll see more routes from Lothian Country. heres a few good route suggestions i thought of

138 - Linlithgow to Waterloo Place via Winchburgh, Kirkliston, Corstorphine
120/X20 - Armadale to Waterloo Place via Bathgate, Newbridge, Corstorphine
X75 - Whitburn to Waterloo Place via Livingston, Newbridge, Corstorphine

If the 138 was a thing it would be great if the council ran the 63 at nighttime between Queensferry and Kirkliston to interwork easy travel between the two villages

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

i just wonder what stops they'll serve between West Approach Road and Sighthill.

It will run non stop like the X25 does

 

[TheEastCoaster]

It will run non stop like the X25 does

Really? the website did indicate Limited Stopping, so that should mean at least 1 or 2 additional stops. otherwise thats a shame. would of been easy if they stopped at Chesser House or Saughton Mains too.

 

[Darklord8899]

It will run non stop like the X25 does

The wording uses limited stop rather than non stop, which would imply some stops between Sighthill and Fountainpark

"Please note that the service operates on a limited stop basis between Sighthill Colleges and Fountain park."

But we will need to wait and see.....

 

[Stef434]

The wording uses limited stop rather than non stop, which would imply some stops between Sighthill and Fountainpark

"Please note that the service operates on a limited stop basis between Sighthill Colleges and Fountain park."

But we will need to wait and see.....

Generally when the word Limited was registered for X services it had to stop at least a minimum of six stops. FSE were masters of illusion when creating X services .
Livinston lost 15 drivers and possibly 5 from Larbert to LCB.
LCB have admitted that they're looking at a new depot in Livingston, can anyone confirm if Lothian still have their non operational premises in Broxburn

 

[backontrack]

There's possibility a market for an Edinburgh Park - Gyle - Ratho Station (- Newbridge) combined frequency of every ten/ fifteen minutes, given the various branches towards South Queensferry/ Ratho/ Winchburgh/ Pumpherston. That way, any longer distance passengers (e.g. off the 38 or 747) may be able to change onto a "turn up and go" service towards the Gyle etc - without disrupting long distance routes into the city centre (e.g. 38).

That's an interesting suggestion.

It seems one of these things that goes full circle though - in the '90s the 63/64 ran via the Gyle, journeys on the current 38 do so (before the forthcoming changes), but operators change between "diverting into the Gyle allows us to serve additional markets that the train can't provide" and "diverting into the Gyle delays things for longer distance passengers heading to the city centre and makes the train more attractive".

I have to admit that I didn't know that there were changes to the 38. Will it no longer serve the Gyle then?

EDIT: Don't worry. I just realised that I was thinking of the 36, which does go from Morningside to the Gyle Centre and back.

 

[Darklord8899]

LCB have admitted that they're looking at a new depot in Livingston, can anyone confirm if Lothian still have their non operational premises in Broxburn

Would make sense, as i see it at the moment:
43: continues to run from Central
275: dead mileage between Central and Edinburgh Park
X27/X28: dead mileage between Central and Bathgate in the morning or a stupidly early service to Bathgate (reverse issues in the evening)
Or
All LCB services are run from Longstone, reducing the dead mileage

Also to be taken into account is which depot has the capacity to take the services...

 

[MrHopefull]

From emails

Dear Colleagues,


I wanted to let you know that tomorrow (6 July 2018) we will announce our plans to expand our Lothian Country business and brand into West Lothian.


From Sunday 19th August we will introduce three new routes to our current network, creating links between Edinburgh and Bathgate and a link between Edinburgh Park Station and Whitburn, 7 days a week.


The introduction of these services will create in excess of 65 new staff positions at Lothian Country. As part of this, we will also be announcing a ‘refer a friend’ scheme for you to recommend a friend or colleague, please keep an eye out on the internal screens for more information soon.


In the short term the operations will be based at Longstone garage and will be managed as a totally separate business unit led by a new manager soon to be announced, under the stewardship of Mark Heritage who many of you will already know. Mark will continue to manage EastCoastBuses and Lothian Motorcoaches.


We are really excited to expand our Lothian Country business and look forward to the exciting opportunities that this may bring for us in the future.


Richard Hall

Managing Director

 

[Darklord8899]

@MrHopefull Thanks, that answered that question