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West Midlands Trains are admitting they do not comply with contract law

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yorkie

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We will pay compensation if trains run late on the day, based on the revised timetables above.
This is unlawful; the contract is made when the ticket is purchased.

For example, if a passenger has an itinerary provided with their booking, this itinerary is evidence of a contract. WMT are not allowed to unilateraly change the terms of the original contract.

WMT are therefore obligated to provide compensation based on the contract, and not to base compensation on revised times.

WMT appear to be suggesting that the contract counts for nothing, and that a passenger who is delayed according to the contracted times is not, in fact, delayed. This is incorrect.

If anyone is denied Delay Repay by WMT on this basis, please do let us know, as this matter will be taken further.

Some train companies have little or no regard for contract and consumer laws, but that does not mean those laws do not apply. They do!
 
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gray1404

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Does this only apply to the itinerary produced when the ticket was purchased or could it apply to the entire timetable that was being advertised for the date of travel if a ticket was purchased in advance?
 

SteveM70

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Does this only apply to the itinerary produced when the ticket was purchased or could it apply to the entire timetable that was being advertised for the date of travel if a ticket was purchased in advance?

The timetable that was advertised for the date of travel on the date of purchase. Your decision to purchase a ticket is clearly largely influenced by the timetable.
 

Bletchleyite

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The timetable that was advertised for the date of travel on the date of purchase. Your decision to purchase a ticket is clearly largely influenced by the timetable.

For the record, VTWC complied with this during the long outage north of Carlisle due to flooding even though this was in no way their fault.
 

najaB

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To be fair to them, that is one interpretation of what they've written. Their statement is 100% correct and lawful for any tickets purchased after the strike timetable was published, as you say.

And they give the passenger the opportunity to cancel the contract (without penalty) based on their notice of a variation of contract:
Get your money back if you choose not to travel...

Under the National Rail Conditions of Travel, if you have purchased a ticket and your train is cancelled or delayed, and you choose not to travel, you can return the unused ticket to the retailer from whom you bought it, and receive a full refund (no administration fee will be charged). This applies to all tickets including those which are usually non-refundable. Alternatively, if you have booked an Advance ticket to travel on our services on Saturday, you can use it the day before (Friday), or on Sunday/Monday instead, if that works better for you.
IANAL, but it seems to me that by choosing not to refund the ticket the passenger is implicitly accepting the variation.
 

yorkie

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1) Fair have point I but discussed the matter with a representative of WMT on Twitter; it was them who pointed me to the website to back up what they were saying.

2) I don't agree. Yes the passenger can choose not to travel and get a refund, but if they do travel and are delayed, then Delay Repay applies.

They were even suggesting a refund should be sought for a journey that was made. But that isn't right, is it?
 

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This is unlawful; the contract is made when the ticket is purchased.

For example, if a passenger has an itinerary provided with their booking, this itinerary is evidence of a contract. WMT are not allowed to unilateraly change the terms of the original contract.

WMT are therefore obligated to provide compensation based on the contract, and not to base compensation on revised times.

WMT appear to be suggesting that the contract counts for nothing, and that a passenger who is delayed according to the contracted times is not, in fact, delayed. This is incorrect.

If anyone is denied Delay Repay by WMT on this basis, please do let us know, as this matter will be taken further.

Some train companies have little or no regard for contract and consumer laws, but that does not mean those laws do not apply. They do!

SWR are taking the exact same position vis-as-vis forthcoming strikes as per their website - and did last time. Is there any possibility that there is a clause in their operator arrangement that permits using revised timetables as the basis in extenuating circumstances? This is what they seem to be claiming. I don't really have the headspace to fight on this issue due to my work, but admire those who do. I will likely lose out on a 100% delay on a forthcoming SWR journey for this reason - as I did last time. Posting this to suggest WMR are not alone in what they are doing.
 

AM9

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Even if they claimed force majeure, the vendor implying that it was not their fault, it is still their responsibility to meet the terms of a contract that they freely entered into.
How would a claim pan out if the buyer bought a ticket before flying away for a holiday and found that when they returned, they could not travel from Birmingham International bacuase the TOC had changed the timetable (even if it was reported on UK news media)?
 

SteveM70

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SWR are taking the exact same position vis-as-vis forthcoming strikes as per their website - and did last time. Is there any possibility that there is a clause in their operator arrangement that permits using revised timetables as the basis in extenuating circumstances? This is what they seem to be claiming. I don't really have the headspace to fight on this issue due to my work, but admire those who do. I will likely lose out on a 100% delay on a forthcoming SWR journey for this reason - as I did last time. Posting this to suggest WMR are not alone in what they are doing.

companies cannot contract out of the law. Simple as that
 

Baxenden Bank

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I would suggest:
A person who buys a ticket on a strike day, after the timetables are published, in the knowledge of the revised timetables, is only entitled to compensation if they are delayed against those revised times.
A person who bought a ticket prior to any announcement of the strikes ought to have their compensation assessed against the timetable in place at the time they bought their ticket.

The question is whether a passenger, having advance knowledge of a (potential) strike but not the actual revised timetables, who then buys a ticket anyway and is delayed, should be entitled to compensation against the 'long-term' timetable. For example, if I go online now and buy a ticket from Stone (no trains or replacement buses provided) to Euston for a Saturday in two weeks time, should I receive compensation n if my journey is disrupted?

I do feel that the expectation in the LNR announcement, that you can either decide not to travel and receive a free refund on your ticket, or that you can travel on Friday/Sunday/Monday instead if that works better for you, ignores an important point. That being that you may not be able to cancel / alter your travel plans. If you are already away from home, do you cut your holiday short or book another night or two in a hotel? Last minute bookings on a Saturday night will not be cheap. Or, as AM9 says above, if you are already abroad and arrive back on a strike day, just what are you expected to do?
 

yorkie

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companies cannot contract out of the law. Simple as that
Indeed. And if the DfT are found to be in cahoots with operators, the DfT could also be in hot water. I am sure the DfT will be reading this, so my message to them is: comply with the law and get your house in order because if you don't, I can see a class action claim being made if things continue.
I would suggest:
A person who bought a ticket prior to any announcement of the strikes ought to have their compensation assessed against the timetable in place at the time they bought their ticket.
Agreed.
...if I go online now and buy a ticket from Stone (no trains or replacement buses provided) to Euston for a Saturday in two weeks time, should I receive compensation n if my journey is disrupted?
If you obtain an itinerary, you have evidence of a contract, so yes.

If WMT do not want people to get that contract, they need to have amend the timetables by now.

Any delay must be measured against the original contract.
 

Starmill

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There is a lot of support for the opinion that consumers should behave reasonably towards firms who experience disruption to their services by giving them more latitude than when services are not disrupted. There is a bold assumption out there that nearly everyone who booked tickets before notification of industrial action was given will find out about the travel disruption before they arrive at their origin station. There is a viewpoint that the firm is not in control of events when industrial action affects the supply of their service. People are known to decry what they see as 'compensation culture' because they think it is somehow dishonourable for an individual to claim their rights against a firm - although the same people often stay silent on the matter of whether or not it is honourable behaviour when a consumer is overcharged by a firm. Furthermore there is a general claim that consumers should make their choice between a refund (the cancelling of the contract) and a slower, less convenient journey - even if the journey ends up (avoidably, usually) taking two or three times longer than it would have done, and that because they were given a choice between this and a refund, that they lose part of their rights to a compensation payment after the fact.

While I sympathise with the intentions behind these viewpoints, I think they are fundamentally looking at the problem the wrong way.

To help think about it, when a customer buys a ticket, they are usually not permitted to refund it for free. In many cases they aren't permitted to refund it at all. If the railway industry can't provide the service they've committed to, they can choose to relax those parts of the conditions, and ask the passenger to agree to reverse the contract. But if the customer's journey is essential (as a large proportion of people would say their journey is), their right to refuse that offer cannot be expunged, if the offer is even made in time.

It is this simple: if I book an Advance ticket for travel on WMT, I don't have the right to change my mind and say that it's no longer convenient for me to travel so I would like a full refund, as if I never bought that service, unless they agree to the variation. Equally, they don't have the right to change their mind and say that it is no longer convenient to provide the transport so they are going to give me a full refund as if I never bought that service, unless I agree to the variation.

It's convenience to the railway industry to offer bookings a long time in advance, because it means they have the money earlier. It's also convenience to the railway industry to restrict refund rights because it makes their yield management more effective, keeps their costs low, and increases revenue when people buy tickets which must go unused if they change their mind. These two practices create the dilemma train companies sometimes find themselves in if they promote poor industrial relations to the point that strike action cripples their ability to provide the services they've taken pre-payment for. In the extreme circumstance, the train companies could charge us only at the ends of our journeys for the service we actually used, like some car parks do. That would then completely protect them from claims of this nature, but it would presumably also upset their business model. That's just the way it rolls.

People who claim that strikes are unforeseeable events which are outside the control of the company to mitigate with regards to customers who had already booked are detached from reality, as is anyone who claims that industrial action is force majure or that contracts have become frustrated as a result. Contracts cannot be cancelled by one party merely because that party regrets their decision to enter into the contract in the first place.

Of course, there is nothing to stop firms from deciding they dislike paying bills which are lawfully due, and using any method they think they can get away with to minimise on their liabilities. This happens a lot in the business world.
 
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island

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companies cannot contract out of the law. Simple as that
You are correct (in some cases at least) to say that companies cannot contract out of the law, but DelayRepay payouts do not arise from law. They arise from TOC policy, or if you squint enough, contract.
 

Steveoh

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East Midlands Railway could perhaps be clearer but they do appear to be taking a different line on how it all works.

From https://www.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/help-manage/manage/make-a-delay-repay-claim

Firstly in the general blurb there is no mention here of the timetable in place when the ticket was purchased.

A delayed train is usually classed as a service running behind the planned, advertised timetable. If we’ve introduced an emergency timetable, compensation will be based on that.

However part 9 of the FAQs then goes onto to imply that actually the timetable in place at the time of purchase is the one used to decide delay repay.

If you were told about the delay before your ticket was purchased, for example due to a timetable change as a result of engineering works, you’re not likely to receive compensation

Then is also a very interesting reference to consequential loss in Part 1 of the FAQs:

Consumer Rights Act 2015
In accordance with your legal rights as a consumer under the Consumer Rights Act 2015, you may be eligible to a different level or method of compensation, including consequential loss, where EMR is at fault, and nothing set out above is intended to limit or exclude your legal rights in these circumstances.
 

Bletchleyite

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So hang on here a minute.

Delay Repay is a contractual entitlement, not a legal one. Therefore any legal side is purely contract law.

Therefore if it is clearly stated that Delay Repay is payable based on the advertised timetable on the day of travel regardless of when the ticket is purchased, how would they be breaking consumer law? They might be breaching their franchise agreement of course (also a contract, but not one with the passenger).
 

pedr

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The two legal issues which that possibility raises are:

a) whether the terms of the actual contract between TOC and passenger incorporates the TOC’s position on strike-related changes to services - this is a matter of determining what the actual terms of the contract agreed between the parties is, and mentions on websites which aren’t clear, or perhaps which don’t exist, when a ticket is bought are less likely to be part of the contract (though, of course, a similar point can be made about the delay relay entitlement; whether that’s part of the contract is also unclear);

b) whether, if it is part of the contract, a term which says “if we state we are unable to deliver the service because of industrial action we have no duty to fulfil any of the contract” is fair, in a consumer context.

Presumably it would take a particular set of circumstances and passengers and TOCs willing to push this to court judgments to get nearer to definitive answers to both of those questions.
 

maxbarnish

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Thanks for responses - seems pretty complex! In both my cases, I bought an advance ticket well before any strike was called and without any knowledge it would be. I don't see any real way of fighting this - except court which I won't.

But another avenue that is quite complex is how some companies, e.g. SWR, are saying "If you have an advanced purchase ticket for an SWR train which is no longer running please use another SWR service which will get you to your destination at a similar time" - so the customer must travel early else s/he may be deemed to not have a valid ticket? Seems harsh - in some cases, one can't get away e.g. from work early. And there appears no guarantee that a customer who turns up at the station with an advance ticket bought before the strike was called will be transported to their destination - if the trains are finishing early for example
 

SteveM70

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Thanks for responses - seems pretty complex! In both my cases, I bought an advance ticket well before any strike was called and without any knowledge it would be. I don't see any real way of fighting this - except court which I won't.

But another avenue that is quite complex is how some companies, e.g. SWR, are saying "If you have an advanced purchase ticket for an SWR train which is no longer running please use another SWR service which will get you to your destination at a similar time" - so the customer must travel early else s/he may be deemed to not have a valid ticket? Seems harsh - in some cases, one can't get away e.g. from work early. And there appears no guarantee that a customer who turns up at the station with an advance ticket bought before the strike was called will be transported to their destination - if the trains are finishing early for example

I’d read nothing more into that other than that they’re trying to be helpful and assuming the passenger’s aim is to arrive as close as possible to the originally planned time. Obviously this is sometimes an incorrect assumption
 

island

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So hang on here a minute.

Delay Repay is a contractual entitlement, not a legal one. Therefore any legal side is purely contract law.

Therefore if it is clearly stated that Delay Repay is payable based on the advertised timetable on the day of travel regardless of when the ticket is purchased, how would they be breaking consumer law? They might be breaching their franchise agreement of course (also a contract, but not one with the passenger).
I agree. This is something I was trying to write earlier, but had not had enough coffee.
 

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I agree. This is something I was trying to write earlier, but had not had enough coffee.

Cheers.

FWIW given the "success" WMT have had with operating the emergency timetable on strike days so far, I wouldn't worry - you've got a very high chance of a full Delay Repay refund against the strike timetable anyway, that's assuming you don't end up claiming a refund and not travelling.
 

najaB

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I don't agree. Yes the passenger can choose not to travel and get a refund, but if they do travel and are delayed, then Delay Repay applies.
Yes. But the argument would be that, by choosing* not to take the refund, the passenger is implicitly accepting the revised timetable. So Delay Repay would be based on that timetable.

*Yes, it may well be Hobson's choice due to having plans that cannot be changed.
 

yorkie

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Yes. But the argument would be that, by choosing* not to take the refund, the passenger is implicitly accepting the revised timetable. So Delay Repay would be based on that timetable.
If the company had a mechanism of contacting people in advance, and giving them that specific choice, then maybe.
 

py_megapixel

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Didn't GTR try this when they had problems on the Thameslink route, essentially denying compensation to commuters by removing trains from the timetable rather than cancelling them?
 

Starmill

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I agree. This is something I was trying to write earlier, but had not had enough coffee.
Therefore if it is clearly stated that Delay Repay is payable based on the advertised timetable on the day of travel regardless of when the ticket is purchased, how would they be breaking consumer law?
In cases where compensation might be due under the Delay Repay scheme, but isn't due under the National Rail Conditions of Travel, I completely agree that there's a grey area here, as I've hinted.

I don't agree whatsoever with the idea that the consumer should have to accept revised times, or that they agree to do so implicitly when they travel, I think that's pretty much just made up. However, when it comes to 'Delay Repay' entitlement over and above the NRCoT entitlement, it is possible that revised times might be relevant, depending on the exact wording used in the operator's Charter.

However, Charters cannot inhibit the contractual provisions of NRCoT. Even Island doesn't argue that NRCoT might not actually form part of the contract. As a consequence, compensation which is due under NRCoT, assuming there's a valid claim for it, must be paid, because no exception exists here for revised timetables, as some may claim it does elsewhere.

I think it's also noteworthy that Condition 32.1 specifically says that you may make a compensation claim by relying on the Charter of the operator concerned, so even if you didn't agree that the Charter forms part of your contract as a consumer, the parts of it related to compensation definitely would be.

In addition to these two routes, the Consumer Rights Act provides a third route to compensation, which is less clear.
 

najaB

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I don't agree whatsoever with the idea that the consumer should have to accept revised times, or that they agree to do so implicitly when they travel...
Well the passenger doesn't have to accept the revised times, they have the option to refund without penalty.
 
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