West Midlands Trains duty of care: LNR passengers abandoned on platform

[Wolfie]

Most people probably wouldn’t see it as a worthwhile use of their time and would conclude life was to short. Each to their own.

Someone noted above that a cab to a tube station or another NR station would be around £10-£12.

If I shoplifted from my local supermarket I’d expect to be prosecuted. If I spend £8 on some groceries which turned out to be no good I wouldn’t them to the small claims court.

What these quotes cumulatively show is that it is your attitude that the TOC has the right to go after every penny but the passenger should suck up broken contracts, defective services, and, if it goes wrong, pay themselves to rectify the issue. I am particularly impressed with your idea that passengers should happily stump up an additional £10-12 to get the service that they've already paid for when, in many cases, their original ticket probably didn't cost much more than that.

An absolutely epic fail in customer services terms and, if common on the railway, probably explains the crap customer service and near contempt with which passengers are often treated. It wouldn't be accepted in the US and shouldn't be here.

Your supermarket analogy is trite and superficial. If l bought groceries that turned out to be no good most supermarkets would offer a full refund, a replacement or in many cases both. If they didn't they would be facing a referral to Trading Standards. The latter are far from perfect but have a damn sight more teeth than any enforcement body on the railways (perhaps you are arguing that such a body is needed?).

Going back to the main argument, instead the passenger response should be to always treat TOCs with exactly the same attitude to full compliance with every aspect to the rules that they demand from passengers and to pursue remorselessly every single failure. Things would soon improve as the cost would destroy the TOCs....

 

[43066]

What these quotes cumulatively show is that it is your attitude that the TOC has the right to go after every penny but the passenger should suck up broken contracts, defective services, and, if it goes wrong, pay themselves to rectify the issue. I am particularly impressed with your idea that passengers should happily stump up an additional £10-12 to get the service that they've already paid for when, in many cases, their original ticket probably didn't cost much more than that.

I’ve not said they should be happy about it. But personally if it was a choice between a tenner in a taxi or two hours on a platform followed by four hours on a night bus I know which I’d take. Being right isn’t going to get me home any quicker (much as the OP has been a lot more balanced on this thread than many others).

An absolutely epic fail in customer services terms and, if common on the railway, probably explains the crap customer service and near contempt with which passengers are often treated. It wouldn't be accepted in the US and shouldn't be here.

Because when someone jumps in front of a train, it isn’t the railway’s fault, and inconvenience is the result. Most passengers grasp this.

Instead the response should be to always treat TOCs with exactly the same exact attitude to full compliance with every aspect to the rules that they demand from passengers, and to pursue remorselessly every single failure. Things would soon improve as the cost would destroy the TOCs....

Nobody has said don’t complain, or don’t go about claiming delay repay.

 

[Wolfie]

Because when someone jumps in front of a train, it isn’t the railway’s fault, and inconvenience is the result. Most passengers grasp this.

I agree and don't believe that anyone has said otherwise.

However, how, and the efficiency with which, the aftermath is dealt is another story. It's not unreasonable to expect an effective coherent response, action when things go wrong, and an ethos where the same failings do not occur over and over. Frankly the railway collectively fails all ends up.

 

[norbitonflyer]

If you're stranded and can't contact the TOC any other way, perhaps try phoning 101 (or 999 if the situation justifies it) and getting the BTP involved?

 

[Jim the Jim]

If I understand correctly:

The railway should assume passengers to be competent, up to the point of being able to organise non-railway transport from an unfamiliar location without staff help.

Passengers should assume the railway to be incompetent, up to the point that railway announcements should be treated as false information and ignored.

 

[Wolfie]

If I understand correctly:

The railway should assume passengers to be competent, up to the point of being able to organise non-railway transport from an unfamiliar location without staff help.

Passengers should assume the railway to be incompetent, up to the point that railway announcements should be treated as false information and ignored.

I love it. A wonderful summary of one poster's apparent position...

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Where's the "like button" when you need it?!

 

[43066]

I agree and don't believe that anyone has said otherwise.

However, how, and the efficiency with which, the aftermath is dealt is another story. It's not unreasonable to expect an effective coherent response, action when things go wrong, and an ethos where the same failings do not occur over and over. Frankly the railway collectively fails all ends up.

In fairness that is what TOCs strive to deliver. The last one I was involved with we ended up being marooned in the middle of nowhere for 1:30 and then leaving a trainload of passengers a couple of counties short of where they expected to be.

Trust me when I say nobody likes doing that one iota - least of all the front line staff involved. It’s an absolute nightmare for everyone concerned (and that’s before you get to the crew of the incident train who have just suffered severe trauma that could end their careers).

The TM did what he could to keep people informed and the TOC had laid on RRBs by the time we de-trained. It’s difficult to know what more can really be done unfortunately, other than recovering the service as quickly as possible. Generally that is done pretty effectively in my experience, but fatalities are by their nature unpredictable and occasionally mistakes will be made.

 

[Wolfie]

In fairness that is what TOCs strive to deliver. The last one I was involved with we ended up being marooned in the middle of nowhere for 1:30 and then leaving a trainload of passengers a couple of counties short of where they expected to be.

Trust me when I say nobody likes doing that one iota - least of all the front line staff involved. It’s an absolute nightmare for everyone concerned (and that’s before you get to the crew of the incident train who have just suffered severe trauma that could end their careers).

The TM did what he could to keep people informed and the TOC had laid on RRBs by the time we de-trained. It’s difficult to know what more can really be done unfortunately, other than recovering the service as quickly as possible. Generally that is done pretty effectively in my experience, but fatalities are by their nature unpredictable and occasionally mistakes will be made.

To be fair that sounds like a pretty much model response in trying circumstances for everyone. Would that were always so....

 

[randyrippley]

I’m making the assumption that TOCs do: namely that those travelling around on the network unsupervised are competent to do (including coping with unexpected delays). If they are not, that’s hardly the TOC’s fault, despite what some on here seem to believe.

You're also making a number of other assumptions:
that the stranded passengers know where they are geographically
that they are aware of alternative train services, routes, and which stations can be used to access them
that they all have mobile phones
that they all know a local taxi company
that there are enough local taxis to cover the immediate one-off demand
that they've got a way of paying again for a service they've already paid for
that everyone is fit to wait for three hours on a cold platform - it wouldn't have been good for a diabetic for instance

 

[Clip]

In fairness that is what TOCs strive to deliver. The last one I was involved with we ended up being marooned in the middle of nowhere for 1:30 and then leaving a trainload of passengers a couple of counties short of where they expected to be.

Trust me when I say nobody likes doing that one iota - least of all the front line staff involved. It’s an absolute nightmare for everyone concerned (and that’s before you get to the crew of the incident train who have just suffered severe trauma that could end their careers).

The TM did what he could to keep people informed and the TOC had laid on RRBs by the time we de-trained. It’s difficult to know what more can really be done unfortunately, other than recovering the service as quickly as possible. Generally that is done pretty effectively in my experience, but fatalities are by their nature unpredictable and occasionally mistakes will be made.

I'm sure the original poster along with the rest of us agree that dealing with a fatality is hard on all those involved and on those in the control room to get things back to normal as soon as possible.

However what you fail to grasp in all of your posts is that the guard/driver on the train they were on have instructed them to leave the train and off it went back to wherever and they were told the following one would pick them up. They didn't even with departure boards showing they would.

That's the issue at hand here and trying to justify it by basically saying that the passengers should've made their own way home at such a late time of an evening is rather silly if you ask me. And that's before I could go on to your claims that people with a disability shouldn't travel if they can't make their own way home which is,quite frankly , a horrific thing to say.

 

[Starmill]

It's the unhelpful and unsympathetic attitude displayed by a *small* minority of rail staff (clearly, there's one on this thread) that reminds others of just how much still needs to be done to improve the passenger experience on UK railways.

There is an awfully long way to go before most people would consider using the service on a frequent basis, yes.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Have we got to the bottom of why the Rail Replacement Bus never seemed to appear at Hemel Hempstead? If it was already 'in motion' I am unclear why the Train Manager of the terminating train was advising passengers to wait on the platform for a 'following train', thereby ensuring that they would all 'miss the bus' when it turned up. This seems to me to be point at which communication sadly broke down.

(My heart goes out to everyone involved. Once as a BR Station Manager on an out-of-hours check at an important junction the supervisor and I both missed an urgent teleprinter message instructing us to secure a 'last train at night' non-connection for some stranded boat passengers. A right mess-up and no 100% Delay Repay in those days. People are only human even if they mean well and try hard.)

 

[Western Sunset]

Just some observations from Real Time Trains.

The OPs WMT train 1U42 1833 Crewe - Euston. Sched at Milton Keynes 2017/18, then non-stop to Euston. Actually arr at MK 2039, then held until 2133. Unscheduled stop at Hemel where the train terminates at 2156.

The next WMT Euston-bound train is 2Y18 2154 B'ham - Euston. Passes Hemel at 0014. The following WMT train is 2Y20 2214 B'ham - Euston. Sched to call at Hemel 0026/27, actual 0041/42.

So only two southbound WMT trains went through Hemel all the time the OP was there; 2Y18 didn't stop but 2Y20 did.

HOWEVER, if the passengers had been told to alight at Milton Keynes, there were seven southbound Avanti expresses calling there between 2157 and 2346.

There appears to have been a total lack of communication between WMT and Avanti as to the possibility of the latter taking WMT passengers to Euston. Was there any communication between the TOCs between 2039 and 2133, whilst 1U42 was held there?

Anyway, as I say, just a few observations...

 

[etr221]

A quote I came across:
“Men are not angered by mere misfortune but by misfortune conceived as injury. And the sense of injury depends on the feeling that a legitimate claim has been denied.” ― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters

In this case the misfortune of an incident, and consequent delay, most people will accept as one of those things, especially if kept informed and reassured.
Injury down to the legitimate claim that the railway will do its best to get them to their destination, denied by abandoning them on the cold platform of an unmanned station for hours...
And it is that injury - denying the legitimate claim that it will do its best - that the railway seems all too prone to do.

A couple of other thoughts:
If I had been there I would have looked to see if there was a signal post telephone at the end of the platform...
And, after, I would be asking what was being done at 2200, at 2230, at 2300, at 2330, at 2400, at 0014, at 0030 to get the stranded passengers on their way, and later, on arrival at Euston, to ensure that they could home/wherevever safely.
And if - as posted above - the driver did not have enough permitted time left to get to Euston (or at least Watford Jn - I assume LO was operating...), why was the train sent on from Milton Keynes?

 

[MotCO]

If I had been there I would have looked to see if there was a signal post telephone at the end of the platform...

Can the general public use these phones, or woulfd it have been an unnecessary diversion to probably hard-pressed signal staff trying to bring the system back.

Would the Info Point be any use (if there was one), if not could a passenger phone someone at WMT?

 

[Robertj21a]

Without going back through the whole thread, surely there are Help points available to passengers at Hemel ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can the general public use these phones, or woulfd it have been an unnecessary diversion to probably hard-pressed signal staff trying to bring the system back.

Would the Info Point be any use (if there was one), if not could a passenger phone someone at WMT?

The SPT contacts the signalbox who would tell the passenger to go away as they are not a customer services line.

There are help points on LNR stations, so this might not be a bad place to start.

For what it's worth I think this is cultural in what is basically primarily a commuter operation - years ago in LNR days there was a fatality that resulted in the 1824 Euston-Crewe sitting at Tring for several hours. In the end it terminated at Bletchley at about 2230-2300 or so with no onward options available (the last VT to Manchester might have been possible if they'd provided taxis to MKC, but there was nobody there to do anything), the station was unstaffed by then and it terminating wasn't announced until just south of the station despite it seemingly being known about for much longer. I have no idea what people did, I wouldn't be surprised if at least one had ended up sleeping in the station.

 

[Western Sunset]

Help points on each platform; staffed until 2200. So there should have been staff there when train terminated short at 2156.

 

[Highlandspring]

Can the general public use these phones, or woulfd it have been an unnecessary diversion to probably hard-pressed signal staff trying to bring the system back.

No. Signallers are not equipped in any way to deal with customer enquiries* and any member of the public using an SPT to contact the signaller would in all likelihood be robustly told where to go. You might get a polite answer the first time you rang and maybe the second but certainly not on the third call. Signallers are carrying out a safety critical job and do not need or want to be distracted by irate members of the public.


*some rural lines, for example the Settle & Carlisle, did have direct phones to the nearest signalbox on station platforms for passenger information purposes but these have generally been replaced by TOC help points

 

[MotCO]

Help points on each platform; staffed until 2200. So there should have been staff there when train terminated short at 2156.

So the Help Points would not be any use on this occasion - the passengers were thrown off the train at 21.56. I would therefore suggest phoning 101 or WMT would have been the best solution.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So the Help Points would not be any use on this occasion - the passengers were thrown off the train at 21.56. I would therefore suggest phoning 101 or WMT would have been the best solution.

I think the poster was saying that there are help points and the *station* is staffed until 2200?

 

[allotments]

Just some observations from Real Time Trains.

The OPs WMT train 1U42 1833 Crewe - Euston. Sched at Milton Keynes 2017/18, then non-stop to Euston. Actually arr at MK 2039, then held until 2133. Unscheduled stop at Hemel where the train terminates at 2156.

The next WMT Euston-bound train is 2Y18 2154 B'ham - Euston. Passes Hemel at 0014. The following WMT train is 2Y20 2214 B'ham - Euston. Sched to call at Hemel 0026/27, actual 0041/42.

So only two southbound WMT trains went through Hemel all the time the OP was there; 2Y18 didn't stop but 2Y20 did.

HOWEVER, if the passengers had been told to alight at Milton Keynes, there were seven southbound Avanti expresses calling there between 2157 and 2346.

There appears to have been a total lack of communication between WMT and Avanti as to the possibility of the latter taking WMT passengers to Euston. Was there any communication between the TOCs between 2039 and 2133, whilst 1U42 was held there?

Anyway, as I say, just a few observations...

also the 23:49 HML-EUS skip stopped passing without it's scheduled stop

 

[RHolmes]

Can the general public use these phones, or woulfd it have been an unnecessary diversion to probably hard-pressed signal staff trying to bring the system back.

No. They cannot be used by the public and the act of doing so would be pointless in this scenario as it’s nothing to do with the signaller

 

[etr221]

Can the general public use these phones, or woulfd it have been an unnecessary diversion to probably hard-pressed signal staff trying to bring the system back.

Would the Info Point be any use (if there was one), if not could a passenger phone someone at WMT?

The SPT contacts the signalbox who would tell the passenger to go away as they are not a customer services line.

There are help points on LNR stations, so this might not be a bad place to start.

In answer to MotCO - don't know, might have found out...

If the help point had been helpful, wouldn't have needed to.

If told to go away, would have said that was rather dependent on a train picking me up (or was he suggesting I walk down the line?) - and that while he wasn't the right person to deal with me, he was the only person I had contact with, so perhaps he could find someone else...

 

[allotments]

I think the poster was saying that there are help points and the *station* is staffed until 2200?

I'm not saying that

There probably are help points but I didn't use them. Others may have done.

I only saw staff after over 2 hours at 00:10

 

[ashkeba]

Without going back through the whole thread, surely there are Help points available to passengers at Hemel ?

Yes, but no one seems to know who they connect to: LNR, NR and a foreign call center have been suggested.

 

[RHolmes]

If I had been there I would have looked to see if there was a signal post telephone at the end of the platform...

Except:

1 - It’s not for public use
2 - It wouldn’t help you in this scenario at all, you’re more likely to just have the phone put down and told not to use it.

 

[Clip]

Except:

1 - It’s not for public use
2 - It wouldn’t help you in this scenario at all, you’re more likely to just have the phone put down and told not to use it.

To be fair I don't think that would happen. I reckon the signaller would be on the blower to control to ask why there is a station full of cold passengers and when are they doing something about it.

That late at night I would have no qualms about using the phone to the box

 

[4F89]

Wouldn't life be so much easier for railway workers, if it wasn't for those pesky passengers?

#Freight4Life