West Midlands Trains (LNR brand) surburban fleet withdrawals

[Lewlew]

Plenty of 4 cars on Sundays

 

[Andy Pacer]

And of course 4 cars appear when they're doing West Mids locals.

 

[setdown]

Evening services between Crewe and Liverpool tend to be 4 coaches, and to be honest that’s just about ok.

 

[Class15]

I can’t remember the exact day but I remember seeing a 4-car 350 out of Euston recently

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can’t remember the exact day but I remember seeing a 4-car 350 out of Euston recently

Pre COVID there were some against the flow Mon-Fri but hardly any on Sat and Sun.

 

[Wyrleybart]

What on earth do you mean? He’s right, they have unexpectedly withdrawn legacy stock - 379 and 456s have had a quick and sudden demise, and now SN 455s will too. The sharpness of your comment is rather ironic.

I am not sure the withdrawal of the 379s is sudden. AIUI they are off lease from GA after replacement by GA 745s and GA 720s. The late delivery of the latter means they have stayed longer than the planned anyway, but what do they replace on the GN ? Is it 387s ?

 

[Class15]

Are there any 350/2 units out of service?

 

[lm321412]

There doesn't seem to be much that I can see on here, but can anyone confirm if today has been the last day of the Class 319s with West Midlands Trains or are they expected to continue into the new timetable change?

 

[Class15]

There doesn't seem to be much that I can see on here, but can anyone confirm if today has been the last day of the Class 319s with West Midlands Trains or are they expected to continue into the new timetable change?

I think they are staying, but I am not sure.

 

[Jturner98]

There doesn't seem to be much that I can see on here, but can anyone confirm if today has been the last day of the Class 319s with West Midlands Trains or are they expected to continue into the new timetable change?

Looking at RTT from Monday the 8:31 Euston - Tring service appears to still be a 319.

 

[43096]

Looking at RTT from Monday the 8:31 Euston - Tring service appears to still be a 319.

I assume you're inferring that from the "Pathed as Class 321"? That is not a guarantee of what stock will work the service, it's just the timings use Class 321 performance.

 

[m4tt]

Were any 319s out today or have we now seen the last of them?

 

[Dart34518]

Looks like 319012/319457 and 319005/319429 were out during the AM peak and 319005/319429 and 319214/319220 were out during the PM peak yesterday.

 

[A0wen]

Why even replace (some, presumably, of) the 350s at all? (sorry if this is a silly question but if fleet uniformity is desired, they already [mostly] have that with the 350s).

And the non conspiracy, non tinfoil hat reason is that LNW pre-Covid were looking for improved capacity - they were going to be ordering 3 car 730s anyway to replace the 323s. So additional 730s were ordered as 5 car units for LNW services - offering improved capacity over 4 car 350s and indeed similar capacity to 12 car 350s, but achieved using 2 units because the 730s are 5 x 23m as opposed to the 4x 20m of the 350s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And the non conspiracy, non tinfoil hat reason is that LNW pre-Covid were looking for improved capacity - they were going to be ordering 3 car 730s anyway to replace the 323s. So additional 730s were ordered as 5 car units for LNW services - offering improved capacity over 4 car 350s and indeed similar capacity to 12 car 350s, but achieved using 2 units because the 730s are 5 x 23m as opposed to the 4x 20m of the 350s.

That may be the reason for the choice of length rather than going for 4x20m units (which were also offered by the manufacturer - see the SWR units), but the thing about the 350/2s being too expensive is not a conspiracy theory, it's well documented fact. It's also the reason why LM used to short-form services on a weekend - they were on a lease which had low capital costs but very high mileage costs, and that made them difficult to use, so almost everything at a weekend ran at minimum length. There was an attempt to renegotiate, this did not bear fruit. The upshot was calling Porterbrook's bluff and ordering a new fleet.

The choice of length may prove a source of regret (for passengers at least) as they are roughly the same as 6.350, and the sweet spot for most services other than "very off peak" is 8.350. Thus they'll either have to run more full-length formations (perhaps cutting off peak frequency instead) or they'll be full and standing 5-car sets.

 

[DarloRich]

I have noted a couple of 12 car trains on early morning Euston runs

Were any 319s out today or have we now seen the last of them?

The early morning Bletchley - Euston is back running and powered by a 319

 

[A0wen]

That may be the reason for the choice of length rather than going for 4x20m units (which were also offered by the manufacturer - see the SWR units), but the thing about the 350/2s being too expensive is not a conspiracy theory, it's well documented fact. It's also the reason why LM used to short-form services on a weekend - they were on a lease which had low capital costs but very high mileage costs, and that made them difficult to use, so almost everything at a weekend ran at minimum length. There was an attempt to renegotiate, this did not bear fruit. The upshot was calling Porterbrook's bluff and ordering a new fleet.

The choice of length may prove a source of regret (for passengers at least) as they are roughly the same as 6.350, and the sweet spot for most services other than "very off peak" is 8.350. Thus they'll either have to run more full-length formations (perhaps cutting off peak frequency instead) or they'll be full and standing 5-car sets.

The seating capacities don't support you.

A 350 has 19-24 1st class seats and 193-246 standard class - reasonable to assume the low figure is on the 2+2 seated units and the 246 on the 3+2.

The 730s are coming in two variants - "long distance" with 39 x 1st class and 356 standard class and "outer suburban" with 39 x 1st class and 415 x standard class.

So comparing the "low" figure on the 350s - a single 730 compared to 2 x 350s will have 1 more 1st class seat and 30 fewer standard class and compared to the high figures a single 730 will have compared to 2 x 350s, 9 fewer 1st class seats and 77 fewer standard class. If anything a single 730 is pretty much the equivalent of a 7 car 350.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The seating capacities don't support you.

A 350 has 19-24 1st class seats and 193-246 standard class - reasonable to assume the low figure is on the 2+2 seated units and the 246 on the 3+2.

The 730s are coming in two variants - "long distance" with 39 x 1st class and 356 standard class and "outer suburban" with 39 x 1st class and 415 x standard class.

So comparing the "low" figure on the 350s - a single 730 compared to 2 x 350s will have 1 more 1st class seat and 30 fewer standard class and compared to the high figures a single 730 will have compared to 2 x 350s, 9 fewer 1st class seats and 77 fewer standard class. If anything a single 730 is pretty much the equivalent of a 7 car 350.

Seating capacities or whatever, the fact is that they were ordered because of the financial issue.

 

[A0wen]

Seating capacities or whatever, the fact is that they were ordered because of the financial issue.

No - they were ordered because LNW needed additional units and capacity.

They have with the 350/2s 37 x 4 car so 148 carriages. They are getting 45 x 5 car 730s so 225 carriages - an increase of 77, or just over 50% if you prefer, that's before you include the additional 20% in length of those coaches.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No - they were ordered because LNW needed additional units and capacity.

They are not replacing the 350/2s for that reason. The reason they are replacing the 350/2s (and not the /1, /3 or /4s) has already been outlined.

They may have ordered a few extra units for capacity; if doing that it would have made sense to order units for the West Midlands to release the non-Euston 350 workings only, which would have provided the extra capacity out of Euston necessary.

 

[setdown]

I don’t know if it’s planned that way, but almost all of the 8-car 350 workings through/from Crewe include 4 cars of 350/2. This gives a choice to passengers as to what style accommodation they’d like- the 350/2 bays are good for families and groups. I’ll miss them when they go.

I wonder if mixing densities will also come to the 730s?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don’t know if it’s planned that way, but almost all of the 8-car 350 workings through/from Crewe include 4 cars of 350/2. This gives a choice to passengers as to what style accommodation they’d like- the 350/2 bays are good for families and groups. I’ll miss them when they go.

It's not planned in that sense (though the 3+2 sets are actually quite popular with the likes of family groups - they like the bays of 6 and if at least 2 out of the 6 are kids they aren't cramped). It's more a random unit generator. However it does seem to happen quite a lot.

I wonder if mixing densities will also come to the 730s?

Knowing the Class 350 "random unit generator" I would be surprised if they didn't end up mixed.

I'm just waiting to see the debacle as a 350 and a 730 turn up with the intention being to couple them. I reckon they'll have managed to "achieve" that in the first week of operation.

 

[Lewlew]

I don’t know if it’s planned that way, but almost all of the 8-car 350 workings through/from Crewe include 4 cars of 350/2. This gives a choice to passengers as to what style accommodation they’d like- the 350/2 bays are good for families and groups. I’ll miss them when they go.

I wonder if mixing densities will also come to the 730s?

All units are interworked with each other. Most people can't tell the difference between different types of train, they just get on it.

 

[465 SE]

Does anyone know whether the 319 workings are consistent in the new timetable? If so, does anyone know which services are 319s?
Thanks

 

[Class15]

Hi all,

How many 319s are still left in service and when will they be withdrawn?

Also, when will 350/2 withdrawals start?

Thanks.

 

[Energy]

Also, when will 350/2 withdrawals start?

Their lease expires in April 2023 according to the National Rail Contract (on a side note the class 139s are suprisingly owned by Porterbrook according to this) but you can be fairly sure they won't be going off lease by then.

 

[43096]

Their lease expires in April 2023 according to the National Rail Contract (on a side note the class 139s are suprisingly owned by Porterbrook according to this) but you can be fairly sure they won't be going off lease by then.

Porterbrook have always owned the 139s. They provided the complete funding package for London Midland’s new trains (classes 139, 172 and 350/2).

 

[Energy]

Porterbrook have always owned the 139s. They provided the complete funding package for London Midland’s new trains (classes 139, 172 and 350/2).

Makes sense given the other trains ordered, I'd always expected the class 139s to be owned by Pre Metro Operations.

 

[lumitumey12345]

When are the 319's expected to be phased out?

 

[JonathanH]

When are the 319's expected to be phased out?

Early in 2023 when enough drivers and guards are trained on the 730 fleet.