• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

West Yorkshire Metro Release Key Findings from Phase 1 of Their Single Transport Plan

Status
Not open for further replies.

stuartmoss

Member
Joined
2 Feb 2010
Messages
987
Location
Leeds
The full 30 page PDF is here: http://www.westyorks-ca.gov.uk/uplo...rt/Transport_Plan/STP-Consultation-Report.pdf

The bits relating to rail proposals (from respondents) are as follows:
HS2

  • Significant criticism of HS2 / lack of understanding of HS2 benefits
  • Bring the proposed HS2 station to the same location as the existing Network Rail Leeds City
  • Station
  • HS2 is a waste of money if the journey times between set off point and station are not considerably improved through better road connections.

Reopening / new rail links:

  • A cross-city heavy rail link for Bradford, re-opening of the Skipton to Colne line, re-opening of the Spen Valley line, Ordsall Chord, reinstating the Wortley Chord.

Requests for New Rail Stations:

  • Low Moor, Horbury Bridge, Arthington, Elland, White Rose , Manningham, Bowling

Other comments:

  • More importance should be placed on regional rail improvements
  • Focus on benefits from rail electrification
  • Improve rail frequency
  • Further mode integration for access from origin to train station (walking/cycling/bus) – create
  • Hubs
  • Rail freight enhancements
  • Address overcrowding on services
  • Address existing rail network and infrastructure first
  • Strengthen role of tram train in the Plan
  • Improve accessibility of all rail stations
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
17,686
Location
Another planet...
Does anybody actually WANT a Bradford cross-city link? Or is it just something that looks like it should exist based on looking at maps? I'm not convinced there's much demand for Halifax to Keighley travel, buses on that corridor have been slashed from what there was in the 1990s, presumably due to lack of use. If it had been built after WWII it'd probably be well used now, but a load of concrete carbuncles were put there instead.
 

MarkyT

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2012
Messages
6,267
Location
Torbay
Does anybody actually WANT a Bradford cross-city link? Or is it just something that looks like it should exist based on looking at maps? I'm not convinced there's much demand for Halifax to Keighley travel, buses on that corridor have been slashed from what there was in the 1990s, presumably due to lack of use. If it had been built after WWII it'd probably be well used now, but a load of concrete carbuncles were put there instead.

If one or other of the two terminal stations were rebuilt closer to the other, rather as they were before both were deliberately moved apart, then interchange between the two would be become much easier without any recasting of service patterns. (Statement of the bl**din obvious clearly!). Here's a little something I sketched a couple of years ago:

http://www.townend.me/files/bradford.pdf

. . . also shows a link from the 'stops at Interchange towards Leeds to avoid reversals.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
39,090
Location
Yorks
Nice to see Skipton - Colne on the agenda.

Wasn't expecting the Spen Valley, although it does travel through a lot of built up area. I wonder how easy it would be, now that lots of motorways have been built across it !

Pleased to see improved local links and frequency mentioned, but dissappointed that there wasn't a mention of a need for later services.
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
17,686
Location
Another planet...
If one or other of the two terminal stations were rebuilt closer to the other, rather as they were before both were deliberately moved apart, then interchange between the two would be become much easier without any recasting of service patterns. (Statement of the bl**din obvious clearly!). Here's a little something I sketched a couple of years ago:

http://www.townend.me/files/bradford.pdf

. . . also shows a link from the 'stops at Interchange towards Leeds to avoid reversals.

Though it is worth remembering that the resiting of Interchange was a good 20 years ahead of the resiting of Forster Sq... I'm just not convinced it's needed though. Are reversals much of a problem, especially considering the time penalty and congestion running via Shipley? Spen Valley would be welcome, and I have a feeling that bridges were put in place at the M62...
 
Last edited:

MarkyT

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2012
Messages
6,267
Location
Torbay
Though it is worth remembering that the resiting of Interchange was a good 20 years ahead of the resiting of Forster Sq... I'm just not convinced it's needed though. Are reversals much of a problem, especially considering the time penalty and congestion running via Shipley? Spen Valley would be welcome, and I have a feeling that bridges were put in place at the M62...

Well forgetting the through rail link at Interchange, either my idea or the 'crossrail' ideas previously mooted. I still think moving the Shipley Lines terminus nearer would be beneficial. It would also give a short walking transfer from the services there to all the bus services at Interchange as well as the rail services to Halifax, Huddersfield etc. My pedestrian link idea next to the courts would also tie in the new shopping centre better to the Interchange bus and rail station complex.
 

noddingdonkey

Member
Joined
2 Nov 2012
Messages
774
Good to see that cross-boundary travel is a key point. Too much of our public transport is organised around arbitrary boundaries, which disadvantages those near to the borders.
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
17,686
Location
Another planet...
Well forgetting the through rail link at Interchange, either my idea or the 'crossrail' ideas previously mooted. I still think moving the Shipley Lines terminus nearer would be beneficial. It would also give a short walking transfer from the services there to all the bus services at Interchange as well as the rail services to Halifax, Huddersfield etc. My pedestrian link idea next to the courts would also tie in the new shopping centre better to the Interchange bus and rail station complex.

The new shopping centre will perhaps drive further investment in Bradford's infrastructure, and if that investment is made wisely it can only be a good thing. I fear though that we could end up with an overcomplicated, poor value-for-money scheme that I'm not convinced is needed. A clockwise version of the free city bus to compliment the existing service would do the same job perfectly adequately, especially in these times of belt-tightening.
One thing that would seem like a quick-win for the city of Bradford would be to improve the planned car-parking capacity at Low Moor, along with signposted access from the M606 and possibly rechristening the station as Bradford Parkway, along with at least 2tph rather than the planned 1. I'd have thought a Manningham station would be too close to both Frizinghall and Forster Square though. White Rose would have similar issues, being so close to both Morley and Cottingley and on an already oversaturated stretch of railway. Horbury Bridge seems like a no-brainer, though "Horbury and Ossett" would be a better name IMO.

Going back to the Spen Valley, I'm not sure it'd be easy to convince Kirklees Council to remove the "Greenway" that now occupies a reasonable length of the trackbed (though it could be that this section is not included in the plans, I'm not able to view the documents). In particular the bridge over the main road just outside Dewsbury heading towards Mirfield is a relatively new, lightweight structure designed for bicycles rather than trains.

Moving away from railways, a free town bus for Halifax would seem a quick win too, what with it being by far the hilliest of the larger towns/cities within West Yorkshire. Certainly Halifax needs one more than Huddersfield does.
 
Last edited:

Haydn1971

Established Member
Joined
11 Dec 2012
Messages
2,099
Location
Sheffield
Does anybody actually WANT a Bradford cross-city link? Or is it just something that looks like it should exist based on looking at maps? I'm not convinced there's much demand for Halifax to Keighley travel, buses on that corridor have been slashed from what there was in the 1990s, presumably due to lack of use. If it had been built after WWII it'd probably be well used now, but a load of concrete carbuncles were put there instead.


It's not about Halifax to Keighley, it's about removing the need to reverse trains at Bradford - So the Leeds-Manchester trains could go via Shipley and presumably with some electrification services down the Airedale valley could go via Pudsey.

Edit - I do like Marks proposal though !
 
Last edited:

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
39,090
Location
Yorks
In that case, why bother with the expense just to avoid a reversal which, frankly doesn't cause any operational problems anyway?
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
23,399
Location
Bolton
Because it slows things down. Look how long Halifax - Leeds takes. Personally I'd favour the alternative of a Bradford avoider, and some new trains to run non-stop Halifax - Leeds.
 

ianhr

Member
Joined
17 Sep 2013
Messages
534
Because it slows things down. Look how long Halifax - Leeds takes. Personally I'd favour the alternative of a Bradford avoider, and some new trains to run non-stop Halifax - Leeds.

I agree with that. How much of the original avoiding line is unobstructed? At one time trains from the west via the Calder Valley route were split at Halifax into separate Leeds and Bradford portions.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
One thing that would seem like a quick-win for the city of Bradford would be to improve the planned car-parking capacity at Low Moor, along with signposted access from the M606 and possibly rechristening the station as Bradford Parkway, along with at least 2tph rather than the planned 1. I'd have thought a Manningham station would be too close to both Frizinghall and Forster Square though.

Going back to the Spen Valley, I'm not sure it'd be easy to convince Kirklees Council to remove the "Greenway" that now occupies a reasonable length of the trackbed (though it could be that this section is not included in the plans, I'm not able to view the documents). In particular the bridge over the main road just outside Dewsbury heading towards Mirfield is a relatively new, lightweight structure designed for bicycles rather than trains.

Could not the Greenway be shifted to the parallel LNWR Leeds New Line?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Nice to see Skipton - Colne on the agenda.

Wasn't expecting the Spen Valley, although it does travel through a lot of built up area. I wonder how easy it would be, now that lots of motorways have been built across it !

Pleased to see improved local links and frequency mentioned, but dissappointed that there wasn't a mention of a need for later services.

I cannot really see much demand for East Lancs to Skipton, and apart from sentimental reasons and that the line could be reinstated fairly easily I would have thought Skipton-Colne should be accorded low priority. None of it is in West Yorks anyway and most people in East Lancs want to go to Manchester. Increasing capacity to allow a half hourly frequency between Gannow Junction and Colne would be better value, with through trains to Man Vic via Blackburn.

The Spen Valley is entirely in West Yorks and serves a densely populated area but here the problem is that most people want to go to Leeds not Bradford and the line runs NW-SE. The Leeds New Line would better serve present demand but would now be almost impossible to reinstate.
 

Darren R

Established Member
Joined
26 Jan 2013
Messages
1,252
Location
Lancashire
Because it slows things down. Look how long Halifax - Leeds takes. Personally I'd favour the alternative of a Bradford avoider, and some new trains to run non-stop Halifax - Leeds.

On the Yorkshire side, Bradford is the biggest market for passengers on the Leeds - Halifax trains. What would be the point in bypassing the main station on the route?

As for 'Bradford Crossrail' being a good idea because it would avoid reversal at Interchange: if you check the times it would actually take longer that way! At present, a train takes 23 minutes from arrival at Bradford Interchange to arrival at Leeds with two intermediate stops. A train from Forster Square takes 25 minutes to get to Leeds, also with two intermediate stops. The reversals currently take no more than four minutes: a station layover at a combined 'Bradford Westgate' would need to be just as long.
 

Ianigsy

Member
Joined
12 May 2015
Messages
1,112
[I cannot really see much demand for East Lancs to Skipton, and apart from sentimental reasons and that the line could be reinstated fairly easily I would have thought Skipton-Colne should be accorded low priority. None of it is in West Yorks anyway and most people in East Lancs want to go to Manchester. Increasing capacity to allow a half hourly frequency between Gannow Junction and Colne would be better value, with through trains to Man Vic via Blackburn.

Property prices can make it quite attractive to buy somewhere like Nelson or Colne, drive across into West Yorkshire and catch a train from one of the stations in the Keighley area. Burnley & Pendle run buses half-hourly from Burnley to both Keighley and Skipton for much of the day, so somebody must be using them- especially the 0532 from Burnley arriving into Keighley at 0637! The Colne branch has been treated as a backwater for a very long time now, but reopening to Skipton could also give an incentive to revamp the whole route through from Burnley to modern standards.
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
17,686
Location
Another planet...
Because it slows things down. Look how long Halifax - Leeds takes. Personally I'd favour the alternative of a Bradford avoider, and some new trains to run non-stop Halifax - Leeds.

The fastest Leeds to Halifax journey seems to be the once-a-day service via Dewsbury each weekday evening. There's unlikely to be a path for this to become a regular service though, as it runs in the slot that is the all-stops to MCV during the day, and becomes the Huddersfield stopper in the evenings.
The Bradford Avoider (Bowling Curve?) hasn't been built on as far as I know, but as others have said Bradford is a big market to miss out and reversal doesn't actually have that much of a time penalty. If there was lots of freight fighting for paths via Dewsbury/Healey Mills (which there isn't) the Bradford Avoider might be a solution. As things are though, it isn't needed.
 
Last edited:

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
32,439
Location
A semi-rural part of north-west England
Nice to see Skipton - Colne on the agenda.

Colne as a destination is not as good as it seems unless co-ordinated line doubling through from Colne in a westerly direction makes this a more attractive project, but we are talking of areas well removed from the Metro source of influence.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The Colne branch has been treated as a backwater for a very long time now, but reopening to Skipton could also give an incentive to revamp the whole route through from Burnley to modern standards.

One might well ask the question as to why the M65 from its link with the M6 near to Preston and giving motorway connections to the towns of East Lancashire was not continued eastwards if such a known demand existed.
 

lejog

Established Member
Joined
27 Feb 2015
Messages
1,321
Does anybody actually WANT a Bradford cross-city link? Or is it just something that looks like it should exist based on looking at maps? I'm not convinced there's much demand for Halifax to Keighley travel, buses on that corridor have been slashed from what there was in the 1990s, presumably due to lack of use. If it had been built after WWII it'd probably be well used now, but a load of concrete carbuncles were put there instead.

Well, at least one respondent to this consultation exercise wants it. :roll: But nobody in local or central government or the rail industry has ever suggested it AFAIK.
 

Deerfold

Veteran Member
Joined
26 Nov 2009
Messages
12,664
Location
Yorkshire
Property prices can make it quite attractive to buy somewhere like Nelson or Colne, drive across into West Yorkshire and catch a train from one of the stations in the Keighley area. Burnley & Pendle run buses half-hourly from Burnley to both Keighley and Skipton for much of the day, so somebody must be using them- especially the 0532 from Burnley arriving into Keighley at 0637! The Colne branch has been treated as a backwater for a very long time now, but reopening to Skipton could also give an incentive to revamp the whole route through from Burnley to modern standards.

The service between Burnley and Skipton was doubled a few years ago and made 2 hours later (commercially) but annoyingly . There are 4 buses an hour between Burnley and Skipton for much of the day Monday - Friday and before Pennine closed down there were up to 6.


Good to see that cross-boundary travel is a key point. Too much of our public transport is organised around arbitrary boundaries, which disadvantages those near to the borders.

Sounds great but Metro regularly puts this in documents and little to nothing ever seems to happen (except the odd Z6 and Z7 Metrocards which are not valid on buses so are only useful to people travelling from Skipton or Harrogate to West Yorkshire who then do lots of rail travel in West Yorkshire beyond Leeds but don't need buses).
 
Last edited:

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
17,686
Location
Another planet...
The service between Burnley and Skipton was doubled a few years ago and made 2 hours later (commercially) but annoyingly . There are 4 buses an hour between Burnley and Skipton for much of the day Monday - Friday and before Pennine closed down there were up to 6.




Sounds great but Metro regularly puts this in documents and little to nothing ever seems to happen (except the odd Z6 and Z7 Metrocards which are not valid on buses so are only useful to people travelling from Skipton or Harrogate to West Yorkshire who then do lots of rail travel in West Yorkshire beyond Leeds but don't need buses).

The cross boundary situation varies depending on which boundary is being crossed. Co-operation between Metro and Travel South Yorkshire means the penalty for crossing the boundary (at least by rail; bus I'm less familiar with but it is significantly harder to do than it used to be due to a lack of services in many areas) is not so great. Darton is in South Yorkshire but in both ITA travel areas, as is West Yorkshire's Denby Dale. The Marsden to Greenfield issue often crops up on these forums though. With regional devolution I wouldn't be surprised to see both Yorkshire ITAs merged and expanded to cover the whole of the larger county of Yorkshire. That wouldn't solve the Standedge issue though...
 

lejog

Established Member
Joined
27 Feb 2015
Messages
1,321
As for 'Bradford Crossrail' being a good idea because it would avoid reversal at Interchange: if you check the times it would actually take longer that way! At present, a train takes 23 minutes from arrival at Bradford Interchange to arrival at Leeds with two intermediate stops. A train from Forster Square takes 25 minutes to get to Leeds, also with two intermediate stops. The reversals currently take no more than four minutes: a station layover at a combined 'Bradford Westgate' would need to be just as long.

As a regular passenger on this line I agree with this and I wonder if proponents of sending Calder Valley services via Airedale have looked at the route on a map. Its already circuitous e.g. Hebden Bridge to Leeds is 19 miles as the crow flies, 26 miles via Bradford Interchange but would be an incredible 31 to 32 miles via Shipley!

Also journey times on the Bradford Interchange route can be (and hopefully are to be) improved, its painfully slow for the 9 mile journey to Leeds. Network Rail have included plans for reworking Bradford Interchange yet again in CP5 (2018 IIRC) and West Yorkshire have a budget to provide "Calder Valley Line rail enhancements (to enhance Network Rail commitments)" after this. Since the Northern Hub is planned to improve Manchester to Bradford capacity and linespeeds, I can only hope this enhancement does the same for Leeds to Bradford. The 30mph crawl through New Pudsey is extremely irritating.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Moving away from railways, a free town bus for Halifax would seem a quick win too, what with it being by far the hilliest of the larger towns/cities within West Yorkshire. Certainly Halifax needs one more than Huddersfield does.

Part of Metro's planned enhancements is to reopen the third platform at Halifax and route some of the local buses which currently terminate in the town centre through to the station, using part of the current car park. Also to run a Halifax to Leeds shuttle service during peaks to increase the service from 4tph to 6tph, although the DfT have since announced an extra Manchester to Leeds train from 2019.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The fastest Leeds to Halifax journey seems to be the once-a-day service via Dewsbury each weekday evening. There's unlikely to be a path for this to become a regular service though, as it runs in the slot that is the all-stops to MCV during the day, and becomes the Huddersfield stopper in the evenings.
The Bradford Avoider (Bowling Curve?) hasn't been built on as far as I know, but as others have said Bradford is a big market to miss out and reversal doesn't actually have that much of a time penalty. If there was lots of freight fighting for paths via Dewsbury/Healey Mills (which there isn't) the Bradford Avoider might be a solution. As things are though, it isn't needed.

Yes with the whole emphasis of rail policy in the North being to improve inter-urban travel, I would hope services to Bradford are improved not cut. But if there was ever a requirement for a faster service from either the Halifax or Calder Valley towns to Leeds they could just be routed fast via Dewsbury - no need to reinstate the curve in Bradford. 10 min (Halifax) to nearer 20 min (Calder Valley towns) journey time improvements would be possible. During recentish engineering works paths were found to route 2 fast Calder Valley trains via Dewsbury on a Saturday in addition to the stopper, so it is possible even if it strains capacity.
 
Last edited:

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
39,090
Location
Yorks
Colne as a destination is not as good as it seems unless co-ordinated line doubling through from Colne in a westerly direction makes this a more attractive project, but we are talking of areas well removed from the Metro source of influence.

Well, I suspect it's a case of walk before you can run.

I doubt there'll ever be much of a case for re-doubling the Colne line as a branch line. If a single track link were provided to Skipton and the route were to become more of an important link in the network, that might well contribute to the case for re-doubling.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
23,399
Location
Bolton
I think for Halifax, Hebden Bridge and Todmorden, Leeds is a more important destination economically than Bradford ever will be. Leeds to Bradford and Leeds - Calder valley needn't be served by the same trains, so long as there is still some service to cater for Bradford - Calder Valley. Splitting them out would balance loadings better too, and make Halifax much more attractive. The fact it takes so much longer than from Huddersfield is a bit silly really, and little more than a historical accident. There needn't be fewer trains between Bradford and Leeds or Bradford and Halifax. The alternative I suppose is to run the Caldervale fast non-stop from Bradford to Leeds, a move which I think is long-overdue for want of a capacity solution for Bramley and New Pudsey.
 

ianhr

Member
Joined
17 Sep 2013
Messages
534
Does anyone know the reason for the very low speeds through the New Pudsey area? Running non-stop between Leeds and Bradford will bring little benefit until this problem is addressed.

The approach to Bradford Interchange from Leeds is very steeply graded and with tight reversed curves and I cannot see how much can be done about raising speeds here although with electrification better acceleration up the incline through Laisterdyke might be possible.

Routeing more trains from the Calder Valley and Halifax via Brighouse and Dewsbury would presumably be facilitated by reinstating the 3rd platform at Halifax (for reversals), 4 tracking Heaton Lodge-Thornhill Jct, grade separation at Thornhill Jct and an UP loop at Dewsbury or Batley. All these infrastructure improvements are badly needed anyway and there would be other benefits, they should definitely be given priority over schemes like Skipton-Colne and the Spen Valley. The Spen Valley might be better served by a tramway but please NOT "tram-train"!
 

Deerfold

Veteran Member
Joined
26 Nov 2009
Messages
12,664
Location
Yorkshire
I think for Halifax, Hebden Bridge and Todmorden, Leeds is a more important destination economically than Bradford ever will be. Leeds to Bradford and Leeds - Calder valley needn't be served by the same trains, so long as there is still some service to cater for Bradford - Calder Valley. Splitting them out would balance loadings better too, and make Halifax much more attractive. The fact it takes so much longer than from Huddersfield is a bit silly really, and little more than a historical accident. There needn't be fewer trains between Bradford and Leeds or Bradford and Halifax. The alternative I suppose is to run the Caldervale fast non-stop from Bradford to Leeds, a move which I think is long-overdue for want of a capacity solution for Bramley and New Pudsey.

I used to go to school in Bradford, travelling from Sowerby Bridge (for 7 years).

On arrival at Bradford at least half of the passengers on the train would get off, to be replaced by a similar number travelling to Leeds.

There were a lot of complaints locally when the service from Sowerby Bridge and Mytholmroyd to Bradford was halved to hourly during the day (with the crap peak 2 services an hour 12 minutes apart).

Perhaps the numbers to Bradford have dropped since this inconvenience was added to those making this journey by train.
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
17,882
Location
Reston City Centre
I think it’s a combination of “dusting down the bumper book of routes that were closed fifty years ago” and also “scattering proposals around West Yorkshire so that every district feels represented”.

I can’t think of any major flow that a Bradford Crossrail would improve (other than the “we must have it because it’s an old line that once closed” argument and the obvious crayonista appeal). Reversals at lightly used stations (Battersby, Carstairs) are perceived as a nuisance for passengers, but the time taken to reverse at a busy station like Bradford Interchange is fairly insignificant (when you consider that dwell times are going to have to be more than a minute to cope with the passenger numbers).

The journeys from Halifax to Leeds are slow because of the twisting nature of the route – unless you’re going to build HS3 along the Calder Valley, you’re never going to make much difference to this. And any Halifax – Leeds service via an avoiding chord outside Bradford comes at the cost of a Halifax – Bradford service and a Bradford – Leeds service – both big markets. Which services would you have omit Bradford? Reduce its links to Manchester (already much poorer than those from Leeds to Manchester)? Remove its links to East Lancashire? Or magically find spare paths at Leeds to allow a fifth service an hour from Halifax (that you don’t want to share with Bradford passengers)?

For Bradford Crossrail to work, you’d need to electrify the entire Calder Valley route and Copy Pit line (otherwise you’re going to see most services through Frizinghall run by diesels under the wires and see EMUs to Ilkley/ Skipton etc replaced by scarce DMUs). That’s on top of the cost of digging up the centre of the city (and finding an alignment that doesn’t involve too steep an incline etc). Like the SELRAP idea (and whatever happened to their amazing cost/benefit ratios by the way?), it’s a solution in need of a problem. Stick it in the “Single Transport Plan” to give the impression that we’re considering lots of things, and spreading investment around the region, but realistically you can forget about it.

It’s already slower to go from Leeds to Forster Square on a 100mph EMU (than to the Interchange on a 75mph DMU) – and the time taken to dwell at a central Bradford station plus climb the hill up to the Calder Valey line isn’t going to outweigh the current three of minutes that most reversals take at Interchange – i.e. you’d end up with slower journeys from Leeds to Halifax than we currently have.

At the moment, if you had a 100mph 333 leaving Leeds for Bradford Forster Square at the same time as a 75mph 142/155 (etc) leaving Leeds for the Calder Valley then the DMU would already be reversing out of the Interchange towards Halifax by the time the EMU reached the Forster Square buffers. How is running the Calder Valley service via Shipley going to make it faster? Maybe some people would rather a train appeared to travelled quickly on a more circuitous route, and feel that being sat for two or three minutes at Bradford Interchange drags, but so what?

Plus, by linking routes from both sides of Bradford, you’re going to tie all services around Bradford into a Gordian Knot (since routes to Skipton/ Ilkley/ Leeds via Kirkstall/ Leeds via Pudsey/ Calder Valley would be tied together with little scope to untangle a timetable dependent on single track sections and flat junctions).

As 61653 HTAFC says, the bus services (e.g. Halifax – Keighley) are slim and shrinking, which suggests little evidence of unmet markets for heavy rail from one side of Bradford to the other. Given the relative speed of the lines, it may still be quicker to do something like Keighley – Manchester or Ilkley – Huddersfield via Leeds (on the current routes) than travelling via Bradford, given the historically lower line speeds on the Calder Valley route – these are pretty minor markets regardless.

The Spen Valley idea sound better. Much better. The 268 provides a bus every ten minutes from Dewsbury to Bradford, despite traffic meaning it takes over an hour to link them – which suggests that there’s a market for heavy rail to tap into (even if those in Cleckheaton etc would rather have a direct service to Leeds, given the choice). It’s certainly got a lot more merit than Skipton - Colne, but may be a generation away (there’s maybe space post-HS3 through Batley for a Leeds – Dewsbury – Spen Valley – Bradford service?). Can’t see any of these big projects happening any time soon – if we can’t find the cash to electrify busy existing lines then I wouldn’t lost too much sleep over building new lines. Better to focus resources on “quick wins” like the line speed through Pudsey (a station that could be a really busy P&R next to the bypass, if it had more trains stopping at it). But, if we were to find the money to invest on one scheme, the “Spen” line is miles ahead of Bradford Crossrail/ Skipton – Colne or other schemes outside Leeds.

There’s been a number of stories on Look North recently about demand for primary school places outstripping supply in Leeds due to the significant numbers of people moving to the area/ new developments etc in a city that has seen a lot of population growth but not a lot of new suburban stations to compensate. But there’s seemingly little plan to serve that kind of suburban population growth with heavy rail, because it’s not on the alignment of a route closed by Beeching/ Castle etc. Contrast the enthusiast clamour to re-open closed alignments (often to rural villages) with the general apathy amongst a significant number of enthusiasts to build brand new alignments linking major places (HS2, Dawlish Avoider). Easier to suggest bringing back lines older people are nostalgic for than work out how to tackle 21st century traffic in places like north east Leeds?
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
39,090
Location
Yorks
I think it’s a combination of “dusting down the bumper book of routes that were closed fifty years ago” and also “scattering proposals around West Yorkshire so that every district feels represented”.

I can’t think of any major flow that a Bradford Crossrail would improve (other than the “we must have it because it’s an old line that once closed” argument and the obvious crayonista appeal).
?

I wasn't aware that there was ever a route linking North and South Bradford, other than the Idle line (which I don't believe is under consideration anyway).

The Spen Valley idea sound better. Much better. The 268 provides a bus every ten minutes from Dewsbury to Bradford, despite traffic meaning it takes over an hour to link them – which suggests that there’s a market for heavy rail to tap into (even if those in Cleckheaton etc would rather have a direct service to Leeds, given the choice). It’s certainly got a lot more merit than Skipton - Colne, but may be a generation away (there’s maybe space post-HS3 through Batley for a Leeds – Dewsbury – Spen Valley – Bradford service?). Can’t see any of these big projects happening any time soon – if we can’t find the cash to electrify busy existing lines then I wouldn’t lost too much sleep over building new lines. Better to focus resources on “quick wins” like the line speed through Pudsey (a station that could be a really busy P&R next to the bypass, if it had more trains stopping at it). But, if we were to find the money to invest on one scheme, the “Spen” line is miles ahead of Bradford Crossrail/ Skipton – Colne or other schemes outside Leeds.

There’s been a number of stories on Look North recently about demand for primary school places outstripping supply in Leeds due to the significant numbers of people moving to the area/ new developments etc in a city that has seen a lot of population growth but not a lot of new suburban stations to compensate. But there’s seemingly little plan to serve that kind of suburban population growth with heavy rail, because it’s not on the alignment of a route closed by Beeching/ Castle etc. Contrast the enthusiast clamour to re-open closed alignments (often to rural villages) with the general apathy amongst a significant number of enthusiasts to build brand new alignments linking major places (HS2, Dawlish Avoider). Easier to suggest bringing back lines older people are nostalgic for than work out how to tackle 21st century traffic in places like north east Leeds?

North East Leeds has always been a bit of a transport desert, and I can agree that it's a shame it isn't better served. Unfortunately, it's also pretty densely populated and unless you're planning major urban clearances or tunnels which would be very expensive and disruptive, I can't see a heavy rail solution being viable. This is an area where the guided busway along York road probably represents the best compromise, although a light rail solution here might also be an option at some stage.

The beauty of old track beds is that they're often relatively cheap to reinstate. There is, of course, the old Weatherby line, which would take in some of the more well off villages, however, this skirts around the Eastern edge of the City rather than serving the bulk of the North Eastern built up area, so you wouldn't necessarily get the regeneration benefits in the areas that need it.

I must admit, when Spen was mentioned, I assumed this was referring to the Leeds New Line (possibly me getting my routes mixed up) which I would have thought would be more useful than the Bradford route (albeit more difficult to re-instate), however, if there's a demand for the route to Bradford then we should go for it.

With regards to Skipton - Colne, I've read mention of 4 - 6 buses an hour on the route on this thread, which suggests a demand for decent public transport on the coridoor to me.
 
Last edited:

lejog

Established Member
Joined
27 Feb 2015
Messages
1,321
For anyone interested in the future services on the Calder Valley line, Arup produced a couple of reports in 2012 with recommendations for a long term (2019ish) timetable and the works necessary to support this.

An overview of the conclusions are contained in a presentation made to Calderdale Council and I've attached a diagram of the preferred timetable to this post. While of course it was an early report it does appear that the infrastructure changes identified necessary to support this are planned (signalling, Bradford Interchange remodelling, extra platform at Halifax). Basically the service in West Yorks would be 6tph Halifax to Bradford to Leeds (4tph from Manchester, the existing Huddersfield service and the existing Manchester to Leeds via Brighouse stopper replaced by a circular Leeds-Brighouse-Leeds stopper) and contrary to what I said in my post last night, the Blackpool to Leeds service diverted via Brighouse and Dewsbury, which could knock 10-15mins off the journey time.

The reports themselves have been subject to an FOI request, but have only been published in a heavily redacted form, with even the information in the presentation stripped out. Supposedly this is due to the information not being made available to bidders for the Northern franchise and more useful copies may be avalable at a later time.
 

Attachments

  • cv.jpg
    cv.jpg
    69.2 KB · Views: 24
Last edited:

Darren R

Established Member
Joined
26 Jan 2013
Messages
1,252
Location
Lancashire
There is a cross-Bradford rail market; I regularly travel between East Lancashire and the Airedale Line, and no matter what time I travel, there are always at least a few of us that walk between Interchange and Forster Square. That's the point though - most people walk. I know not everyone can, and that needs to be taken into consideration by transport planners, but a large number of cross-Bradford rail passengers will not show up in official statistics. I split ticket at Bradford, because it's cheaper, and walk between the two stations. I rather suspect that the actual number of passengers who arrive at one station by rail and then depart the other station by rail is much larger than official statistics suggest.

However, it still doesn't even come close to providing a sound business case for Bradford Crossrail: it is a solution in search of a problem, and this is not the solution to Bradford's problems.

Referring back to the Skipton to Colne line, I happened to be looking at The Beeching Report recently. Although the methodology used in The Beeching Report is (ahem) somewhat questionable, the report shows in the accompanying maps that the Skipton to Colne line was busier than the Colne to Rose Grove section. In fact - using methods equally as dubious as Beeching's (adding up total annual station usage and dividing by 52 weeks) - Rose Grove to Colne today is still not as busy as Skipton to Colne was in 1963! (Density of passenger traffic is shown as between 10,000 and 50,000 passengers per week between Skipton and Colne.)

The bus service between the Burnley/Colne corridor and upper Airedale destinations is frequent and well-used, so certainly there is a potentially significant market to tap into. Perhaps all the grandiose plans of through trains running between Yorkshire and Lancashire via Colne should be put to one side and a more modest proposal be considered, as yorksrob suggests. Creating another Ormskirk or Kirkby may not be so bad after all, with a single track line from Skipton terminating buffer-to-buffer at Colne - what the hell, maybe even electric, with passive provision for a loop somewhere.

As for the suggestion of rerouting the Blackpool North to York services via Dewsbury - forget it. The only reason this route sees passenger services at all is because the service was provided between Preston and Bradford Interchange - not Leeds please note! - when the Burnley Building Society merged with the Provincial, whose offices were in Bradford. East Lancashire to Burnley is a significant commuter market still. For both commuters and leisure, as many passengers from East Lancashire are heading to Halifax and Bradford. Not everyone wants to go to Leeds!
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
23,399
Location
Bolton
The problem with tbtc's attitude is that you can see things too conservative a state. It should be like it currently is because it's currently like that, and anything that needs changing needs overwhelming evidence for it, despite the lack of evidence that the current setup is helping anybody. How attractive a commuting proposition is somewhere 17 miles from Leeds that takes 40 minutes to reach by train? Leaving Leeds you can be half way from Doncaster to Retford before Halifax.
 
Last edited:

lejog

Established Member
Joined
27 Feb 2015
Messages
1,321
As for the suggestion of rerouting the Blackpool North to York services via Dewsbury - forget it. The only reason this route sees passenger services at all is because the service was provided between Preston and Bradford Interchange - not Leeds please note! - when the Burnley Building Society merged with the Provincial, whose offices were in Bradford. East Lancashire to Burnley is a significant commuter market still. For both commuters and leisure, as many passengers from East Lancashire are heading to Halifax and Bradford. Not everyone wants to go to Leeds!

The building society move was 40 years ago, is it relevant to the future?

I suggest you read Section 7 (Demand And Revenue Modelling) of the Arup Report for a description of the methodology they used, which was based on Northern's latest passenger and revenue figures and industry standard modelling. It stresses that journey time reductions of >10% leads to "transformational" changes in demand. Although the results are redacted is not difficult to see why the increase in demand due a 25-35% cut in journey times from the Calder Valley towns to Leeds (along with a 10-15% cut in the journey time from Burnley to Leeds) would outweigh the negative effects for East Lancs to Halifax and Bradford passengers.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
There is a cross-Bradford rail market; I regularly travel between East Lancashire and the Airedale Line,

Aah I missed your first line, so I see you have a personal rather than objective interest here ;)
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top