What’s going on with Thameslink?

[43074]

There is simply no spare Platform Capacity at London Kings Cross for any 12 car Class 700's to be diverted into London Kings Cross permanently. And that's not the DfT's fault, there simply are just too many trains and not enough platforms, and it will get even more tight when the ECML timetable change eventually goes ahead.

I admire your optimism on the recast

 

[bramling]

There is simply no spare Platform Capacity at London Kings Cross for any 12 car Class 700's to be diverted into London Kings Cross permanently. And that's not the DfT's fault, there simply are just too many trains and not enough platforms, and it will get even more tight when the ECML timetable change eventually goes ahead.

The daytime service doesn’t need to be 12-car. An hourly 8-car service would be quite suitable, and platform space for an 8-car could be freed up by adjusting the 2Cxx services so the incoming service arrives slightly later, thus saving a platform essentially right through the whole day.

But having said that, 5tph LNER, 1tph GC, 1tp 2hrs HT, 4tph GTR and the odd Lumo should be able to be accommodated in 11 platforms with room to spare. If LNER have made this difficult by having too many different types of formation then that’s essentially tough.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

But having said that, 5tph LNER, 1tph GC, 1tp 2hrs HT, 4tph GTR and the odd Lumo should be able to be accommodated in 11 platforms. If LNER have made this difficult by having too many different types of formation then that’s essentially tough.

Where is the stock going to come from for this 8 car service? 387's are accounted for and the 8 car Class 700 fleet is rather stretched as it is.

Also, I really think you are underestimating just how tight platform capacity is at London Kings Cross. Long distance trains have incredibly long turnarounds mandated in the TPR's.

The loss of the one Platform at Kings Cross, means that its extremely difficult to run more GTR trains into London Kings Cross, and if you did you would certainly negatively impact the performance of long distance trains, and if the ECML timetable change ever goes ahead, it will become literally impossible.

Its a shame that its not an option, but I've seen first hand just how difficult it is to Platform Kings Cross even with the current level of service, without any additional services being added in.

 

[Bald Rick]

I always thought it was crazy to close platform 11 as part of the Kings Cross works. The performance benefits were surely outweighed by the loss of flexibility.

The journey time / performance benefits - to every train that uses the suburban side - far, far outweighed the loss of a platform that was not expected to be used under any normal circumstances (including disruption).

But having said that, 5tph LNER, 1tph GC, 1tp 2hrs HT, 4tph GTR and the odd Lumo should be able to be accommodated in 11 platforms with room to spare. If LNER have made this difficult by having too many different types of formation then that’s essentially tough.

You are 1.5tph short on LNER there.

 

[Horizon22]

What I don't understand is how they make no effort to improve the Horsham - Croydon provision. There have been a lot of issues (not all of GTR's making) north of Kings Cross (loads of dewirements for some reason?!) but it's always seems to be like Faygate, Littlehaven and the like are totally binned off with no real attempt to substitute them for anything. I'd certainly be miffed as to why as a Sussex resident I've got a severely reduced service due to a problem in Hertfordshire.

I appreciate why (through running in the core and platform availability) but the average passenger won't and I think GTR's contingencies aren't robust enough if this is the only solution.

 

[bramling]

Where is the stock going to come from for this 8 car service? 387's are accounted for and the 8 car Class 700 fleet is rather stretched as it is.

Well, there *would* have been ample stock within the GTR fleet up until May 21. Again, perhaps this is something the DFT and industry should have considered. For the now, there is of course the 379s, without having a look there must also be some slack in the 387 fleet at the minute with the lack of GN 12-car services on weekdays, though presumably that will change at some point.

Long distance trains have incredibly long turnarounds mandated in the TPR's.

Essentially, tough, something may well have to give. It’s not the fault of GTR users that LNER are running their services with multiple different combinations.

On the latter point, just doing some back of fag packet thinking, I make it 7 different combinations of LNER train, 8 if you mix bi-mode and electric which has been diagrammed at times. Not the most sensible situation really, especially considering it was essentially 2 types for many years.

The loss of the one Platform at Kings Cross, means that its extremely difficult to run more GTR trains into London Kings Cross, and if you did you would certainly negatively impact the performance of long distance trains, and if the ECML timetable change ever goes ahead, it will become literally impossible.

Again, essentially tough, something which should have been thought about before. It’s not like this wasn’t all fairly forseeable. It’s also worth remembering that some of these long-distance services fail to make optimum use of a path / platform space by running 5-car trains, something LNER seem to be increasingly doing nowadays too.

You are 1.5tph short on LNER there.

What am I missing? I make it 2tph Scotland, 2tph Leeds and 1tph Lincoln for most of the day. I presume you’re talking about future plans?

As for performance benefits, I’m sure this will come as pleasing news to Peterborough GTR users who seem to have no usable service for much of the time at present!

 

[Bald Rick]

What am I missing? I make it 2tph Scotland, 2tph Leeds and 1tph Lincoln for most of the day. I presume you’re talking about future plans?

Yes of course future plans, as that is what KX is designed for.

 

[bramling]

Yes of course future plans, as that is what KX is designed for.

So something which may well never even happen.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Well, there *would* have been ample stock within the GTR fleet up until May 21. Again, perhaps this is something the DFT and industry should have considered. For the now, there is of course the 379s, without having a look there must also be some slack in the 387 fleet at the minute with the lack of GN 12-car services on weekdays, though presumably that will change at some point.




Essentially, tough, something may well have to give. It’s not the fault of GTR users that LNER are running their services with multiple different combinations.

On the latter point, just doing some back of fag packet thinking, I make it 7 different combinations of LNER train, 8 if you mix bi-mode and electric which has been diagrammed at times. Not the most sensible situation really, especially considering it was essentially 2 types for many years.



Again, essentially tough, something which should have been thought about before. It’s not like this wasn’t all fairly forseeable. It’s also worth remembering that some of these long-distance services fail to make optimum use of a path / platform space by running 5-car trains, something LNER seem to be increasingly doing nowadays too.



What am I missing? I make it 2tph Scotland, 2tph Leeds and 1tph Lincoln for most of the day. I presume you’re talking about future plans?

As for performance benefits, I’m sure this will come as pleasing news to Peterborough GTR users who seem to have no usable service for much of the time at present!

I just don't agree with the tough answer. Why does something have to give? You can't reduce mandated turnarounds in the TPR's, that's firmly never, ever going to happen nor would never be agreed by any party.

Well, the Platform has been removed now, so there is nothing that can be done about it. If you don't like the fact LNER are running shorter trains then fair enough, but trains frequently have to Platform share at Kings Cross now to solve platforming issues, and that causes enough trouble as it is.

The simple answer, is that there needs to be better contigency for the Peterborough to Horsham trains during disruption. Running trains permanently into Kings Cross is not going to work, and I also fail to see how that is the answer considering the vast majorty of disruption is caused by issues on the ECML.

 

[Minstral25]

The simple answer, is that there needs to be better contigency for the Peterborough to Horsham trains during disruption. Running trains permanently into Kings Cross is not going to work, and I also fail to see how that is the answer considering the vast majorty of disruption is caused by issues on the ECML.

100% correct - contingency to turn round just before and just after the core

 

[Bald Rick]

So something which may well never even happen.

but, on the balance of probability, is more likely to happen than not.

 

[bramling]

but, on the balance of probability, is more likely to happen than not.

Okay, versus pretty much daily disruption on the GN Thameslink services, which *is* happening, indeed right now.

I don’t consider hypothetical LNER services and luxurious turnaround times sufficient justification for denying an established service access to King’s Cross, especially when this has been exacerbated by the long-distance operator carelessly ending up with too many types of train formation to be able to operate efficiently.

I suppose the other way to achieve this would be to swap one of the Peterborough hourly services with the hourly Ely fast (albeit with the issue over 12 cars to resolve somehow). This might actually work better by giving Cambridge a fast Thameslink service, rather than the current rather unsatisfactory situation of Cambridge users who want the core using the 9Sxx services to the detriment of people further in. I realise marrying up the Horsham path to the Ely one is unlikely to be a straightforward task in the northbound direction.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Okay, versus pretty much daily disruption on the GN Thameslink services, which *is* happening, indeed right now.

I don’t consider hypothetical LNER services and luxurious turnaround times sufficient justification for denying an established service access to King’s Cross, especially when this has been exacerbated by the long-distance operator ending up with too many types of train formation to be able to operate efficiently.

How are the turnaround times luxurious?

 

[Bald Rick]

Okay, versus pretty much daily disruption on the GN Thameslink services, which *is* happening, indeed right now.

I don’t consider hypothetical LNER services and luxurious turnaround times sufficient justification for denying an established service access to King’s Cross, especially when this has been exacerbated by the long-distance operator ending up with too many types of train formation to be able to operate efficiently.

yes but you are comparing what was planned (more services and the required long turnarounds to service long distance trains), with the unplanned (disruption on the ECML).

Obviously no one wants the latter, and to be fair whilst disruption will happen, no one expected the level of disruption currently experienced.

you seem to be implying that the railway should have planned the service on the basis of expecting severe disruption on a regular basis?

or is this just another route for not being happy with the loss of the 365s?

 

[bramling]

yes but you are comparing what was planned (more services and the required long turnarounds to service long distance trains), with the unplanned (disruption on the ECML).

Obviously no one wants the latter, and to be fair whilst disruption will happen, no one expected the level of disruption currently experienced.

you seem to be implying that the railway should have planned the service on the basis of expecting severe disruption on a regular basis?

or is this just another route for not being happy with the loss of the 365s?

Whichever way we beat about the bush, the current service is unfit for purpose. It’s disrupted pretty much every single day at present, and has always been indifferent ever since May 18 - it has always been very much the exception to turn up and everything be running. In the last year I’ve even had to on one occasion walk from Stevenage to Hitchin due to the service falling apart, that’s how useless things are, and I’m only now an occasional user.

As for the 365s, at least in those days we had a dependable service, now we don’t. I think most people locally here would very happily go back to 2017 given the choice, especially now the whole high-peak capacity thing seems to have been blown into the water (albeit, to be fair, in a way none of us foresaw).

Next week, one of my cars is in for an alloy refurb, and another family member needs the other one to go on holiday in Devon. I am literally dreading having to use the train for a week to get to/from London, such that it’s a serious toss between hiring a car for the week or the week in Devon having to be cancelled. Is this a state of affairs for anyone associated with the rail industry to be proud of?

 

[Hadders]

I have to say that my patience as a regular passenger on the GN side of Thameslink is being severely tested at the moment. Strikes, cancellations due to lack of staff and disruption due to infrastructure failures and incidents really are starting to take their toll.

An absolutely awful journey home last night (Monday). I get that incident at Sandy was not the fault of the railway but recovery was farcical.

With consecutive Thameslink trains via the core cancelled, no LNERs leaving Kings Cross I opted for a semi-fast from Kings Cross to Stevenage. Off we go and after a couple of minutes come to a stand just outside Finsbury Park. Driver tells us via the PA that there's a train in our platform at Finsbury and we should be moving shortly. A few minutes laster he tells us that the train at Finsbury cannot move as there's no driver. He then the driver had been located and he was on our train. Cue a wait of almost half an hour as we waited for another driver to be found to move the train.

Five trains pass us as we stood at a stand. When we eventually start moving we make a unscheduled call at Alexander Palace for mis-placed driver to get off then we crawl along behind an ex-Moorgate all shacks and an empty train that appeared to be heading to the sidings at Welwyn Garden City. We actually got put on the fast line north of Woolmer Green, just a shame we couldn't have been put into the fast after Finsbury to overtake the all shacks. Took 1h20 to get from Kings Cross to Stevenage in the end.

 

[bramling]

How are the turnaround times luxurious?

Does, for example, LNER require turnaround times of an hour for the half-hourly Leeds service, journey time 2 and a quarter hours? When meanwhile, Peterborough-Horsham is a longer journey time and only gets 10-15 mins at each end?

I think most people would probably be content even for one of the Peterborough-Horsham services to terminate at Finsbury Park and reverse via Canonbury than the current sorry mess. At least you’d stand some chance of reaching London, as opposed to the latest GTR contingency strategy which seems to be to turn Peterborough-Horsham into Peterborough-Stevenage, which is only slightly more useful than a chocolate teapot. Never mind ThamesLink/, it doesn’t even reach London now let alone cross the Thames!

 

[GN Boy]

I have to say that my patience as a regular passenger on the GN side of Thameslink is being severely tested at the moment. Strikes, cancellations due to lack of staff and disruption due to infrastructure failures and incidents really are starting to take their toll.

An absolutely awful journey home last night (Monday). I get that incident at Sandy was not the fault of the railway but recovery was farcical.

With consecutive Thameslink trains via the core cancelled, no LNERs leaving Kings Cross I opted for a semi-fast from Kings Cross to Stevenage. Off we go and after a couple of minutes come to a stand just outside Finsbury Park. Driver tells us via the PA that there's a train in our platform at Finsbury and we should be moving shortly. A few minutes laster he tells us that the train at Finsbury cannot move as there's no driver. He then the driver had been located and he was on our train. Cue a wait of almost half an hour as we waited for another driver to be found to move the train.

Five trains pass us as we stood at a stand. When we eventually start moving we make a unscheduled call at Alexander Palace for mis-placed driver to get off then we crawl along behind an ex-Moorgate all shacks and an empty train that appeared to be heading to the sidings at Welwyn Garden City. We actually got put on the fast line north of Woolmer Green, just a shame we couldn't have been put into the fast after Finsbury to overtake the all shacks. Took 1h20 to get from Kings Cross to Stevenage in the end.

A second slow to fast line link prior to Finsbury Park would very much help matters. Pity it’s a pipe dream. The amount of times we end up sitting at the signal protecting platform seven with nowhere to go…

 

[Silver Cobra]

The Thameslink network just doesn't seem to catch a break. Dealing with the after effects of yesterday's OHL damage near Biggleswade, service has now stopped between St Pancras and Bedford due to a person being hit by a train. There's also residual delays from signalling problems earlier between Norwood Junction and London Bridge on top.

 

[TFN]

The Thameslink network just doesn't seem to catch a break. Dealing with the after effects of yesterday's OHL damage near Biggleswade, service has now stopped between St Pancras and Bedford due to a person being hit by a train. There's also residual delays from signalling problems earlier between Norwood Junction and London Bridge on top.

Also signalling issue in Waterloo East causing conflicts with Southeastern doesn't help. I was very lucky this morning but honestly I feel sorry for the frontline staff

 

[WizCastro197]

Where is the stock going to come from for this 8 car service? 387's are accounted for and the 8 car Class 700 fleet is rather stretched as it is.

Also, I really think you are underestimating just how tight platform capacity is at London Kings Cross. Long distance trains have incredibly long turnarounds mandated in the TPR's.

The loss of the one Platform at Kings Cross, means that its extremely difficult to run more GTR trains into London Kings Cross, and if you did you would certainly negatively impact the performance of long distance trains, and if the ECML timetable change ever goes ahead, it will become literally impossible.
The Thameslink network just doesn't seem to catch a break. Dealing with the after effects of yesterday's OHL damage near Biggleswade, service has now stopped between St Pancras and Bedford due to a person being hit by a train. There's also residual delays from signalling problems earlier between Norwood Junction and London Bridge on top.

That probably means that southern Services are going to be very busy!

 

[bramling]

The Thameslink network just doesn't seem to catch a break. Dealing with the after effects of yesterday's OHL damage near Biggleswade, service has now stopped between St Pancras and Bedford due to a person being hit by a train. There's also residual delays from signalling problems earlier between Norwood Junction and London Bridge on top.

The GN side of Thameslink seems to have completely evaporated this morning. Can’t even see what’s going on. Beyond a joke now. Shameful, in fact.

 

[JonathanH]

Pretty much only Southern (and GWR) services running at Redhill this morning.

 

[bramling]

Pretty much only Southern (and GWR) services running at Redhill this morning.

Just one up and one down 9Jxx service showing on the whole route between King’s Cross and Peterborough, and seemingly the entire 2Cxx and 9Sxx service vanished into thin air. Unbelievable.

My neighbour has just arrived back from the station, having aborted his journey to London. Apparently the station is complete bedlam, staff have no clue whatsoever what’s going on, just that every train is showing as “Delayed” or Cancelled, they say there is no info at all coming out of control.

So another Thameslink meltdown. GTR are taking a battering on their Twitter page, and interesting that Shapps’s name has come up (well, one of Shapps’s names!). Someone should point out that he’s too busy picking fights with the London mayor over a train service for which he isn’t directly responsible, whilst one for which he *is* responsible is falling apart at the seams.

 

[Bayum]

What am I missing? I make it 2tph Scotland, 2tph Leeds and 1tph Lincoln for most of the day. I presume you’re talking about future plans?

As for performance benefits, I’m sure this will come as pleasing news to Peterborough GTR users who seem to have no usable service for much of the time at present!

You’re missing the York terminators for a start.

 

[Failed Unit]

Just one up and one down 9Jxx service showing on the whole route between King’s Cross and Peterborough, and seemingly the entire 2Cxx and 9Sxx service vanished into thin air. Unbelievable.

My neighbour has just arrived back from the station, having aborted his journey to London. Apparently the station is complete bedlam, staff have no clue whatsoever what’s going on, just that every train is showing as “Delayed” or Cancelled, they say there is no info at all coming out of control.

So another Thameslink meltdown. GTR are taking a battering on their Twitter page, and interesting that Shapps’s name has come up (well, one of Shapps’s names!). Someone should point out that he’s too busy picking fights with the London mayor over a train service for which he isn’t directly responsible, whilst one for which he *is* responsible is falling apart at the seams.

The Great Northern Shuttles kept me going (but very full) - but what concerns me more is disruption is expected to continue until 2000. In the past I would be surprised but Thameslink just can't seem to recover with drivers / trains all over the place.

 

[Watershed]

You’re missing the York terminators for a start.

To be fair, these alternate with the Lincoln terminators. But the future level of service is certainly intended to be higher than that...

 

[bramling]

You’re missing the York terminators for a start.

Okay, 2tph Scotland, 2tph Leeds, 1tph Lincoln/York. Still adds up to 5tph.

 

[43074]

This morning there is a level crossing failure near Hitchin, points failure at Holloway South Jn, track circuit failure near Earlswood, possession from yesterday's overhead wire problems was handed back late and a person hit by a train at Elstree.

 

[bramling]

The Great Northern Shuttles kept me going (but very full) - but what concerns me more is disruption is expected to continue until 2000. In the past I would be surprised but Thameslink just can't seem to recover with drivers / trains all over the place.

It does seem that GTR’s control simply cannot cope when there’s incidents on more than one part of the Thameslink network, as seems to be the case this morning (though no one actually seems to know what’s actually wrong on the GN side, just that the service is completely screwed).