What actually constitutes a break of journey

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OhNoAPacer

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I know this may seem like a stupid question, but is there any actual wording that defines what break of journey actually is?

Perhaps it would help if I give the reason why this seemingly bizarre question came to me.

I am going to travel Whitehaven to Northampton starting from Whitehaven on the 09:04 train to Carlisle, and, for reasons to do with needing to arrive in Northampton as early as I can using that journey start time. I have a wait at Carlisle from 10:13 until the Euston train at 11:50.

Now the ticket restriction is 3A, so no break of journey allowed (other than to change trains) on the outward leg. I am clearly going to be changing trains, now my understanding is that I was to head off into Carlisle then this would constitute a break of journey.

If I were to set off on a train from Carlisle, and then get off at say Preston, go for a wander, then restart my journey from Preston on a later train, then clearly I have broken my journey, but it is less clear cut as to why filling in time at Carlisle by going for a wander whilst waiting for the train I have a reservation for constitutes a break of journey.

As I said initially, seems a silly question, but my limited ability on such things has failed to supply me with an answer.
 
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Starmill

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There is no specific definition of a Break of Journey in the Conditions of Travel that I can see. I cannot possibly imagine anyone will challenge you on this though.
 

BRX

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If in doubt show your ticket at the gates when exiting Carlisle station, and ask if it's ok to leave the station and come back in. If they say it's fine, then if you are challenged on the way back in you can truthfully say that you were told it was ok by another member of staff.

In practice I'd be very surprised if you had a problem. I do this all the time on outward legs of offpeak tickets, and sometimes break the journey for a couple of hours at a station where I don't have a need to change trains. I've never ever been questioned on it.

In my mind, breaking a journey means breaking it overnight, although that may not fit with the technical definition.
 

furlong

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I know this may seem like a stupid question, but is there any actual wording that defines what break of journey actually is?

The railway's previous definition was retired on 1st October and has not been replaced.

So your guess as to what constitutes a break of journey really is as good as mine now. Look it up in the dictionary and decide if ordinary people would think what you're doing is reasonable against that definition.

E.g. the OED gives, amongst other definitions:
break:
An interruption of continuity in a course of action or time
journey:
an excursion or expedition to some distance
 

Haywain

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Whilst it is not a definition, break of journey in the context of the ticket being used effectively means stopping short to avoid a higher fare. It would be difficult to argue that you have that intention when you have travelled from Whitehaven to Carlisle with a ticket for a significantly longer journey. And I doubt anybody will object to you going for a stroll during a lengthy change between trains so, unless Carlisle has recently acquired barriers, I wouldn't even worry about asking first.
 

ainsworth74

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If in doubt show your ticket at the gates when exiting Carlisle station, and ask if it's ok to leave the station and come back in. If they say it's fine, then if you are challenged on the way back in you can truthfully say that you were told it was ok by another member of staff.

There are no gates at Carlisle.
 

tony_mac

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No. That is definitely not accurate.
Can you say why?
Most Tickets allow you to break your journey. This means that you do not have to make the whole of your journey at the same time or, where allowed, on the same day.
This, at least, implies that a break of journey is where you do not make the whole journey at the same time.
I would take that as meaning there is a time gap during the journey - i.e., not taking the next suitable train.
 

WelshBluebird

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Can you say why?

This, at least, implies that a break of journey is where you do not make the whole journey at the same time.
I would take that as meaning there is a time gap during the journey - i.e., not taking the next suitable train.

So on a journey from Keynsham to Cardiff, I have to change trains at Bristol Temple Meads anyway. I spent an hour having a drink or two in the pub on platform 3 (that you do not have to exit the station to go to), and I catch a train after one I could have caught had I not had a drink. Is that a break of journey? Because common sense and previous interpretations of the rule would say it isn't, but you are saying it is.
 

tony_mac

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I think common sense would say that if you decide to not take the next train, but to visit a pub and have a couple of pints instead, then you are breaking your journey.

Whether the pub is / is not on station premises doesn't really change the meaning of the term.
 

AlterEgo

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Given that the term "journey" doesn't even have a definition itself in the NRCoT I think "break of journey" is an even more difficult term to define!

I would personally define it as leaving railway premises for any reason OTHER than travelling by train, or travelling by rail replacement road transport or travelling via any other recognised method as defined by NRE (including walking connections, through-conenction buses and ferries).
 
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It's a stupid restriction that is pretty much unenforceable. I can't for the life of me as a conductor even getting involved in that nonsense.
 

cuccir

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As noted, it's not defined anywhere specifically. In this instance, I can't see you having a problem and I think tony mac's common sense definition can operate.

I think in practice AlterEgo's definition is broadly correct, with the caveat that this doesn't apply if you're between connections on booked journey. It is widely accepted that you've not broken your journey if you don't leave the station (I'm sure Yorkie has offered evidence in the past that this is an accepted industry standard?) - which yes, does create some small scope for bending regulations slightly (eg you could hold a meeting in a station cafe/pub for several hours) but reflects the slight impracticality of doing it any other way!
 

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As noted, it's not defined anywhere specifically. In this instance, I can't see you having a problem and I think tony mac's common sense definition can operate.

I think in practice AlterEgo's definition is broadly correct, with the caveat that this doesn't apply if you're between connections on booked journey. It is widely accepted that you've not broken your journey if you don't leave the station (I'm sure Yorkie has offered evidence in the past that this is an accepted industry standard?) - which yes, does create some small scope for bending regulations slightly (eg you could hold a meeting in a station cafe/pub for several hours) but reflects the slight impracticality of doing it any other way!

It was defined as such in the old NRCoC, wasn't it?
 

tony_mac

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Because a requirement to catch the first possible train removes flexibility from the ticket once travel has commenced.

You may need to spell it out, I still don't know point what you are trying to make . A ticket with a break of journey restriction does remove flexibility from the ticket, that's rather the point of having a 'restriction'!
It was defined as such in the old NRCoC, wasn't it?
Yes.

Personally, I don't see why hours spent doing something else instead of trying to travel should count differently depending on who owns the premises, but it's not exactly a big issue in practice.
 

Bletchleyite

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Personally, I don't see why hours spent doing something else instead of trying to travel should count differently depending on who owns the premises, but it's not exactly a big issue in practice.

For same-day break of journey it is largely unenforced, but I do fear the possibility of some TOC interpreting it as "not taking the first connection even if it's packed", or worse "not taking the first direct train".

TBH, I would propose making same day break of journey permissible on all walk-up tickets, with the only thing restrictable being overnight. That tallies with the de-facto situation in most places.
 

furlong

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It was defined as such in the old NRCoC, wasn't it?

There was a crisp definition, which meant it was easy to determine what was or was not allowed, and I'm baffled why they decided to remove this. In effect, they have greatly relaxed the restrictions as, without such a definition (and I'm afraid "the whole at the same time as itself" thing is gobbledygook) it will be harder for anyone to argue there was a breach if what passengers do looks reasonable in their specific circumstances or even perhaps if what they decided to call their planned journey already included spending several hours outside railway premises in a city along their route.
 

najaB

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You may need to spell it out, I still don't know point what you are trying to make . A ticket with a break of journey restriction does remove flexibility from the ticket, that's rather the point of having a 'restriction'!
Yes, a time removes flexibility in that there are certain trains that you aren't able to use, however you can use any other service.

If you have a "no break of journey restriction" and you define a break of journey as taking anything other than the first available train, then you have no flexibility in your itinerary once you start travelling.
 

Phil.

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"Break of journey"? Getting off the train that you originally joined en-route and boarding another one to continue the journey to the same destination?
e.g Making a Nottingham - St. Pancras journey. Board at Nottingham, detrain at Leicester, have a cup of something stupid then join another train to St. Pancras.
That seems like breaking a journey to me.
 

OhNoAPacer

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It was a hypothetical question, well for this journey anyway. I was just trying to see if there was an actual 'railway' definition, as opposed to a dictionary one, of what is meant by break of journey.
Interestingly, if you tried to say you must catch the first available train, then this would be the 11:11 to Euston via Birmingham, which after a change at new street, international or coventry, would get me to northampton later than 11:49 euston via trent valley and change at rugby train. NRE shows the via rugby journey, but putting in a via brum brings the other up as a valid journey (of course it does, it is a valid route).

I am not going to try and play the 'a reasonable person would say' game, but I wonder how many normal passengers, not those that hang around rail forums :) , would interpret break of journey from stopping them going for a wander into the city whilst waiting for the connection service, particularly if the connection time is a long one.

As for the chances of anyone having a problem at carlisle anyway, i would class that as being on the low side of improbable.
 

Bletchleyite

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I suspect if you asked most people what you could do on a walk-up, they would think it was OK to wander into town between changing trains (as it de-facto is, whatever ticket you hold, walk-up or not), but wasn't OK to stop overnight.
 

Failed Unit

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What is the definition of leaving the station as well. Extreme example you change trains at Birmingham New Street and have 30 minutes on a booked connection- you want a smoke you need to leave the station. Don't smoke so not needed to try but I assume that is ok. I have passed the gateline and not left the station for something to eat before with no issue, but upon return the staff have no way of knowing how long I have gone for.

Personally it is back to what is the railway losing. In the posters example, nothing if they take a wander around Carlisle. To me that is no worse than a mini detour if you change stations in Newark.
 

ainsworth74

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It was a hypothetical question, well for this journey anyway. I was just trying to see if there was an actual 'railway' definition, as opposed to a dictionary one, of what is meant by break of journey.

The problem is that one no longer exists! Until 1 October 2016 within the National Rail Conditions of Carriage the definition was as follows:

NRCoC Condition 16 said:
For the purposes of this Condition [...], you will be treated as breaking your journey if you leave a Train Company’s or Rail Service Company’s stations after you start your journey other than to:

(i) join a train at another station, or
(ii) stay in overnight accommodation when you cannot reasonably complete your journey within one day, or
(iii) follow any instructions given by a member of a Train Company’s or Rail Service Company’s staff.​

Clear, simple and easy to understand I would have said. However since 1 October 2016 the National Rail Conditions of Travel replaced the old conditions and now have this to say:

NRCoT Condition 16.2 said:
Most Tickets allow you to break your journey. This means that you do not have to make the whole of your journey at the same time or, where allowed, on the same day.

There is no further definition of the term. There are a few bits about how many times you break your journey and about starting/finishing short but there is no clear definition any more.

So we cannot give you the 'railway definition' as there is no longer such a thing!
 

Bletchleyite

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BoJ bars are normally to prevent ticket reuse or starting/finishing short. The former can be prevented by barring overnight BoJ as few will reuse a ticket on the same day. The latter, well, you could check people going out of the barrier line where this is relevant.


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OhNoAPacer

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The problem is that one no longer exists! Until 1 October 2016 within the National Rail Conditions of Carriage the definition was as follows:



Clear, simple and easy to understand I would have said. However since 1 October 2016 the National Rail Conditions of Travel replaced the old conditions and now have this to say:



There is no further definition of the term. There are a few bits about how many times you break your journey and about starting/finishing short but there is no clear definition any more.

So we cannot give you the 'railway definition' as there is no longer such a thing!

So, they have fixed it worse then ;)
 
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