What are "poor rail head conditions"?

[pendolino]

I am pretty sure that if the locals really wanted they could probably get TPOs put on some of these trees and make lots of trouble for NR.

If you mean trees on railway land, then not really, as Network Rail is a statutory undertaker (i.e., it has responsibilities under statute law, not that it has to arrange everyone's funerals), like for example the electricity distribution network operators. There are exemptions in the TPO legislation in that the LPA's consent is not required for works to trees by statutory undertakers on operational land in order to comply with their statutory obligations, even if there is a TPO in force (which is unlikely - LPAs are unlikely to bother making a TPO that cannot be enforced).

There are other legal considerations relating to vegetation on railway land - I believe Tring cutting is a SSSI (chalk grassland) so anything there would need to be agreed with Natural England - and the presence of bats or birds nests which have legal protection may need to be taken into account, but the TPO legislation is largely irrelevant.

Even with TPO'd trees not on operational land where NR couldn't claim the statutory undertaker exemption, they could still apply for consent to pruning/felling and if they could demonstrate why the work is required, and agree to replanting if the LPA requires it, then the LPA could allow them to go ahead.

None of which is to say that NR shouldn't consult with the LPA & local residents about works to trees, nor ignore good practice in environmental stewardship.

 

[Trog]

Not only does cutting trees back cause problems with embankments as the routes hold them together to an extent

The reverse is true trees on embankments are a menace, and should all be removed.

In the summer the trees suck vast amounts of water out of the embankments they grow on. Which can then depending on what the bank is constructed from cause the bank to shrink. This in turn affects the top and line of the track laid on top of the bank, which has to be corrected. In the winter it rains through the now dormant trees and the bank expands again, and the track needs correcting again.

Both the shrinkage of the bank in summer and the trees roots pulling on the bank as their branches act as sails in windy weather, can cause cracks in the fabric of the embankment. These are lines of weakness, and can allow water access to the interior of the bank where it can lubricate the surfaces allowing a slip.

Trees also give cover to burrowing vermin which tunnel into the embankment again causing weakness. They also shade out the grass which holds the surface of the bank together, allowing material to fall away under gravity which robs the top corners of the bank of support so the cess path is lost.

So for an ideal world cut down anything bigger than grass, and give even that a trim once a year.

 

[Mr Sam]

As discussed on other threads many times
The mulch and goo from leaves also electrically insulates the wheel from the rail causing the track circuit to fail and hence signalling system as the train cannot be detected unless other means of detction are in use such as axle counters
The "sandite" paste used after jetting contains metal particles (aluminium IIRC) to provide electrical continuity
as well as sand for friction i.e traction or braking

ahhhh was wondering why they used the aluminum, makes total sense now

 

[northwichcat]

The reverse is true trees on embankments are a menace, and should all be removed.
...
So for an ideal world cut down anything bigger than grass, and give even that a trim once a year.

How do you plan to remove keep the embankments free of trees?

Yes you can cut down the ones that are currently there but that doesn't stop new ones growing. Seeds will have been dropped by existing trees and even where there are no existing trees it doesn't stop seeds being blown on to the embankment from nearby trees, or seeds being dropped by birds.

 

[sevenhills]

How do you plan to remove keep the embankments free of trees?

Our efficient Government manages to have lovely green grassed banks at the side of every dual-carriage way and motorway.

 

[northwichcat]

Our efficient Government manages to have lovely green grassed banks at the side of every dual-carriage way and motorway.

Not sure about 'lovely'.

They get customised road vehicles running along cutting the grass every few weeks and another cutting hedges* every few months. Then a road sweeper can come along and sweep up any dropped grass or hedge cuttings.

Has anyone even invented rail vehicles that could practically do the same jobs?

* Incidentally most roadside hedges have trees growing inside them but the hedge cutting equipment cuts them down to the same height as the hedge making them less noticeable.

 

[HSTEd]

Additionally railway lines are often associated with being islands of greenery with important wildlife related benefits.

Attempting to eliminate them wholesale would not go down well at all.

 

[Wyvern]

Network Rail simply wont spend the money. It took our local council months of arm-twisting to get them to remove a mature horse chestnut from the abutments of a road overbridge (grade 2 listed as well).

On the other hand bordering a railway footpath there were half a dozen spindly hawthornes that had once been a hedge. Network Rail were about to tidy the path, retarmaccing it and installing metal paling down one side. On the side where the hawthornes were they were going to "lay" them to remake the hedge but the householder complained about an imaginary increase in noise, and rather go through the fuss and pretence of legal proceedings, they spent thousands on building him an eight foot high wall.

So generally NR takes the line of least resistance.

 

[A-driver]

Whilst I have no evidence to back this up I would guess that one reason that it causes more problems now adays is that time tables are so much tighter and so there is absolutely no recovery time in intense suburban timetables which are most affected by leaf fall.

I have worked for 2 suburban TOCs as a driver and both regularly see 7min turnarounds at the ends of trips with minimal time to get between stations. If its meant to take 4 mins to go from one station to the next but acceleration is slowed by poor railheads and so it takes 6 mins instead then you have no chance of catching up those 2 mins and the delays will only get worse and worse over the day.

Just a thought.

 

[northwichcat]

and so there is absolutely no recovery time in intense suburban timetables which are most affected by leaf fall.

That doesn't apply a lot of Northern DMU routes where there is usually around 5 minutes of recovery time per 60 minutes journey time normally and they add in around an additional 3 minutes between October and December for seasonal problems.

 

[Trog]

How do you plan to remove keep the embankments free of trees?

Flail mowing once a year with a long reach road rail machine, with a couple of blokes to do the twiddly bits by hand following behind. Would do nicely once the existing trees had been removed.

 

[HSTEd]

Flail mowing once a year with a long reach road rail machine, with a couple of blokes to do the twiddly bits by hand following behind. Would do nicely once the existing trees had been removed.

Wouldn't the mowing cause problems analogous to leaf fall?

Also this sounds like its going to require extra possesions, assuming once a year was actually adequate, which I think is probably unlikely.
And you will either need a lot of mowing teams or more than a "couple" of people following each motor.

You can't use a flail mower near signal equipment or power equipment, or on an electrified railway at all for obvious reasons.

 

[Trog]

Wouldn't the mowing cause problems analogous to leaf fall?

I doubt it would create enough of the right kind of waste for that. ie large flat leaves. You could also try and avoid flailing during the damp days of early winter. During the summer even the wrong sort of waste will just dry up and blow away.

Also this sounds like its going to require extra possesions, assuming once a year was actually adequate, which I think is probably unlikely.

Some of it could no doubt be fitted in with existing work, but some extra possessions will be required. That would have to be balanced against the delays caused by the leaves. Trees take years to grow, so once a year will keep them down, especially if existing ones are killed at the start of the process so there are only that years seedlings to deal with in future.

And you will either need a lot of mowing teams or more than a "couple" of people following each motor.

As flails tend to throw things, the follow up staff, can not work too close to the flail, they could prehaps even come in the following day. When they can see what they are doing, and cut the odd bits the flail can not get to.

You can't use a flail mower near signal equipment or power equipment, or on an electrified railway at all for obvious reasons.

New rule/restriction? I am sure we used to flail the banks of OHL fitted lines in the past.

 

[sevenhills]

Not sure about 'lovely'.

They get customised road vehicles running along cutting the grass every few weeks and another cutting hedges* every few months. Then a road sweeper can come along and sweep up any dropped grass or hedge cuttings.

Has anyone even invented rail vehicles that could practically do the same jobs?

* Incidentally most roadside hedges have trees growing inside them but the hedge cutting equipment cuts them down to the same height as the hedge making them less noticeable.

I would prefer hedges and small trees close to roads, and grassed banks close to railway lines.
If the whoooosh of the trains stirs up these leaves, then a vacuumed leaf collector on some trains should be cost effective.
Perhaps that problem would get sorted if the train companies charged Network Rail for late trains?

 

[Tomnick]

Perhaps that problem would get sorted if the train companies charged Network Rail for late trains?

They do.

 

[Bald Rick]

.
If the whoooosh of the trains stirs up these leaves, then a vacuumed leaf collector on some trains should be cost effective.

It isn't.

 

[DarloRich]

I would prefer hedges and small trees close to roads, and grassed banks close to railway lines.
If the whoooosh of the trains stirs up these leaves, then a vacuumed leaf collector on some trains should be cost effective.
Perhaps that problem would get sorted if the train companies charged Network Rail for late trains?

what colour is the sky on your planet? :roll: yes lets fit a leaf vacuum to all trains. That ought to be a simple task. I wonder how many leaves you can collect u at 75mph?

Has anyone even invented rail vehicles that could practically do the same jobs?

Lots of them such as here: http://www.gosengineering.co.uk/Rail/wheeled_rrv.html

or here: http://www.qtsgroup.com/plant.asp?PlantID=14

or here: http://www.qtsgroup.com/plant.asp?PlantID=17

 

[HSTEd]

My proferred proposal is to fit a plasma torch to the leading bogie of all electric trains.

You should be able tune its output to enough to incinerate the leaf mulch without getting the rail hot enough to damage it.

 

[O L Leigh]

You'd think the rail industry had spent no money at all on any research into what works best at cleaning the railhead in a cost-effective and safe manner before deciding upon water-jetting.

O L Leigh

 

[yorkie]

If the whoooosh of the trains stirs up these leaves, then a vacuumed leaf collector on some trains should be cost effective.

Where would the leaves be collected? Would you compact the leaves too? What would you then do with the leaves? How would this work? How many trains would it take to clear the leaves between, say, Edinburgh and London?

Perhaps that problem would get sorted if the train companies charged Network Rail for late trains?

How would you change the current arrangements? This already happens.

 

[sevenhills]

Where would the leaves be collected? Would you compact the leaves too? What would you then do with the leaves? How would this work? How many trains would it take to clear the leaves between, say, Edinburgh and London?

How would you change the current arrangements? This already happens.

I am just offering ideas, as the current system seems to be failing, with problems on a daily basis in poor weather.
I dont think dealing with the problem is the right way forward, but removing the cause.

So removing the trees, or removing the leaves is the answer?

 

[A-driver]

The problem isn't just leaves. Traffic pollution, fireworks, light rain etc is just as problematic. In spring time early morning dew can cause issues aswell.

It's also not a problem isolated to the uk. As far as I know parts of the USA and Canada suffer far more than the uk does.

 

[DarloRich]

I am just offering ideas, as the current system seems to be failing, with problems on a daily basis in poor weather.
I dont think dealing with the problem is the right way forward, but removing the cause.

So removing the trees, or removing the leaves is the answer?

It isn't failing. Unfortunately you cant remove the cause in a simple cost effective manner.

You'd think the rail industry had spent no money at all on any research into what works best at cleaning the railhead in a cost-effective and safe manner before deciding upon water-jetting.

O L Leigh

You would be forgiven for thinking we were amateurs and just made it up as we went along! :roll:

 

[Bushy]

It isn't failing. Unfortunately you cant remove the cause in a simple cost effective manner.

Have to agree, autumn delays on Kent Coast line are nowhere near as frequent as they used to be.

Regards

Bushy

 

[sheff'd victoria]

The Rail Head Treatment Train. It uses a water canon to blast the leaf mulch off the track and can also add a sandy paste to the track to improve grip. The sand is like a gel and has ferrous metal particles in it.

You have a series of tank units with the water in them loaded into a flat bed wagon

Where are the Rail Head Treatment Trains based, do they cover every line ?

 

[Prairie_5542]

Where are the Rail Head Treatment Trains based, do they cover every line ?

Hi, in East Anglia they are based in Stowmarket. They have 57s on each end. Sometimes we get Network Rail yellow 57s on these (ones with the delner coupler and ones without).

 

[michael769]

There are a couple of MPVs in Slateford Depot most afternoons.

 

[Southern313]

Sussex ones are based at Horsham...with a good cafe outside the depot!

 

[LE Greys]

Have to agree, autumn delays on Kent Coast line are nowhere near as frequent as they used to be.

Regards

Bushy

I could make a comment here about Bulleid Pacifics, but I won't (partly because A4s slipped almost as badly). Still, the need to keep linesides clear to avoid fires starting was one major reason that braking issues were less common in steam days. The other might well be tread brakes, which scrubbed the wheels clean very effectively. Having been on a slipping 317 (an alarming experience hock: ) I really wish that certain media types would take the problem more seriously and cover the efforts to sort it out.

 

[Bushy]

Where are the Rail Head Treatment Trains based, do they cover every line ?

There are four MPVs based at Tonbridge. Probably why autumn service has improved on Kent Coast line.

Regards

Bushy