What are your first impressions of the new TGV-M.

[citycat]

Bit of an ugly duckling I thnk. Maybe it will look better when the livery is applied.

 

[popeter45]

tbh looks not that diffrent from a duplex, bigger question is if they actually implemented the cabin layout changes they showed off in renders
any idea if they will use this for a rail speed record attempt?

also whats going to be the variants?, any plans for tri/quad mode for international for now?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are Alstom currently capable of an attractive looking unit? I've not seen one recently. Ugly monstrosity due to the long nose on a short power car, though at least unlike the Amtrak Acela it matches the coaches.

 

[eldomtom2]

also whats going to be the variants?, any plans for tri/quad mode for international for now?

Well there's the Avelia Liberty, which is 12kV 25Hz/12.5kV 60Hz/25kV 60Hz...

 

[rf_ioliver]

Reminds me of the Arlanda Express.

 

[martin2345uk]

Bit of an ugly duckling I thnk. Maybe it will look better when the livery is applied.

Utterly hideous in my opinion, but that shouldn't be a major consideration when choosing new rolling stock
Really hope Eurostar don't end up with these to replace the 373s

 

[Sorcerer]

Based on initial postings here, I might be in the minority in saying that I actually like the design. It's not the best I've seen of course, but it's not the worst either.

Are Alstom currently capable of an attractive looking unit? I've not seen one recently. Ugly monstrosity due to the long nose on a short power car, though at least unlike the Amtrak Acela it matches the coaches.

I think the ETR 675 used by Italo is quite a fine-looking unit, especially in the smart Italian racing red livery.

 

[Austriantrain]

Based on initial postings here, I might be in the minority in saying that I actually like the design. It's not the best I've seen of course, but it's not the worst either.


I think the ETR 675 used by Italo is quite a fine-looking unit, especially in the smart Italian racing red livery.

Many fine-looking units unfortunately cannot be replicated even a few years later because of permanently increasing crashworthiness requirements.

As to „long nose on a short power car“, I fear that is a feature rather than a bug. Both for aerodynamical reasons - look at some Shinkansen - and crashworthiness; OTOH the shorter the power car, the more coaches (as is the case here).

I like it too, though.

 

[JonasB]

Doesn't look too bad, but it'll interesting to see it painted.

also whats going to be the variants?, any plans for tri/quad mode for international for now?

According to Wikipedia, of the 115 ordered, 15 will be quad current.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I like it too, though.

I think I'm inherently biased because I don't like double-deck rolling stock in anything other than massive US loading gauge, and I don't really like any TGVs, they're typically cramped and basic compared to the ICE model of high speed travel.

 

[martin2345uk]

What's the main advantage of units with power cars like this versus proper multiple units?

 

[Sorcerer]

What's the main advantage of units with power cars like this versus proper multiple units?

There isn't one really. I think it's mostly just a French thing because their high-speed trains are exclusively units at each end while Trenitalia, Italo, Renfe and Deutsche Bahn prefer multiple units these days. Some of their older models were power car sets but in the case of Renfe it was a TGV-derived set, and since then most modern modern high-speed trains are multiple unit. China and Japan meanwhile were always EMUs for their high speed networks as far as I'm aware.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What's the main advantage of units with power cars like this versus proper multiple units?

It means you can have full length upstairs and downstairs on a double deck coach. If you do a double deck MU you have to lose part of either deck for the electrical gubbins.

 

[Sorcerer]

It means you can have full length upstairs and downstairs on a double deck coach. If you do a double deck MU you have to lose part of either deck for the electrical gubbins.

Most Duplex coaches look like they already lose a bit of the bottom deck to make room for other onboard electrical gubbins though. It's hard to describe but you can sort of see on the picture below that the bottom deck loses space to make way for onboard equipment. The top deck is a bit more flexible since that extra window to the left of the door isn't present on current TGV Duplex units as far as I'm aware. In either case I think it still raises the question as to whether or not a power car at each end is actually more beneficial than a multiple unit in terms of running a double-decker set.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Based on initial postings here, I might be in the minority in saying that I actually like the design. It's not the best I've seen of course, but it's not the worst either.
I think the ETR 675 used by Italo is quite a fine-looking unit, especially in the smart Italian racing red livery.

Yes it has a resemblance to the ETR 675, which is a version of the Pendolino rather than the TGV.
It's also a nod towards the "Pato" (duck) design of Talgo 350 power car in Spain (Renfe 102).

 

[Wychwood93]

Yes it has a resemblance to the ETR 675, which is a version of the Pendolino rather than the TGV.
It's also a nod towards the "Pato" (duck) design of Talgo 350 power car in Spain (Renfe 102).

My thoughts exactly - 'patoesque'. Not pretty, but aero functionality is possibly more important.

 

[Austriantrain]

There isn't one really. I think it's mostly just a French thing because their high-speed trains are exclusively units at each end while Trenitalia, Italo, Renfe and Deutsche Bahn prefer multiple units these days. Some of their older models were power car sets but in the case of Renfe it was a TGV-derived set, and since then most modern modern high-speed trains are multiple unit. China and Japan meanwhile were always EMUs for their high speed networks as far as I'm aware.

For very high-speed, RENFE has lately only been buying Talgo sets with power cars and unmotored coaches.

Yes it has a resemblance to the ETR 675, which is a version of the Pendolino rather than the TGV.
It's also a nod towards the "Pato" (duck) design of Talgo 350 power car in Spain (Renfe 102).

It’s not a nod to anything - modern crashworthiness standards and aerodynamics have the effect that there is less opportunity for individual design and all possible solutions look very similar to each other.

I think I'm inherently biased because I don't like double-deck rolling stock in anything other than massive US loading gauge, and I don't really like any TGVs, they're typically cramped and basic compared to the ICE model of high speed travel.

Which I understand, but I’d rather get a ticket (where reservation is mandatory) or a seat (where it is not) and travel double-deck. Those are just a sign that the railways are a victim of their own success; and if the UK loading gauge allowed it, British railways would be world masters in DD stock (you invented double-decker buses after all.

 

[JonasB]

Which I understand, but I’d rather get a ticket (where reservation is mandatory) or a seat (where it is not) and travel double-deck.

The problem is that SNCF tend to prefer running large trains a few times per day. I much prefer the German approach of running smaller trains but more frequent.

 

[Austriantrain]

The problem is that SNCF tend to prefer running large trains a few times per day. I much prefer the German approach of running smaller trains but more frequent.

I agree, but the LGV Sud-Est for instance could not be run without double-deck stock.

And: France has very high infrastructure usage fees, meaning it is particularly important to carry as many people as possible on each train.

It’s not good policy, but it is what it is.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It’s not a nod to anything - modern crashworthiness standards and aerodynamics have the effect that there is less opportunity for individual design and all possible solutions look very similar to each other.

It will be interesting to see what emerges from the HS2 design stable (Hitachi).
So far we just have the mandatory "bullet train" description, and a rather bulbous front end artist's impression in all the PR.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It will be interesting to see what emerges from the HS2 design stable (Hitachi).
So far we just have the mandatory "bullet train" description, and a rather bulbous front end artist's impression in all the PR.

Suspect it'll just look like a pointier 80x.

 

[Sorcerer]

For very high-speed, RENFE has lately only been buying Talgo sets with power cars and unmotored coaches.

But is that because said formation is inherently better or cheaper? Or is it because Talgo is a local manufacturer who only offer that sort of train? It's not unusual for European state-owned operators to select local manufacturers for the majority of rolling stock orders. France does it with Alstom, Germany with Siemens, Switzerland with Stadler, and of course Spain with CAF and Talgo.

Which I understand, but I’d rather get a ticket (where reservation is mandatory) or a seat (where it is not) and travel double-deck. Those are just a sign that the railways are a victim of their own success; and if the UK loading gauge allowed it, British railways would be world masters in DD stock (you invented double-decker buses after all.

Considering we can barely master single deck trains along with building a high-speed rail link, I'm unfortunately lead to doubt this assertion.

It will be interesting to see what emerges from the HS2 design stable (Hitachi).

Probably a scaled-down version of the Frecciarossa 1000 similar to the artist impressions. I expect maybe a few design changes such as adding a driver-only door near the front instead of a passenger saloon area, or alongside it maybe, but considering it's based on the Zefiro design it will most likely be something very similar regardless.

 

[eldomtom2]

It’s not a nod to anything - modern crashworthiness standards and aerodynamics have the effect that there is less opportunity for individual design and all possible solutions look very similar to each other.

I definitely wouldn't agree with that - if you look around you'll find quite a lot of visual variety in high-speed train aesthetics...

 

[Austriantrain]

But is that because said formation is inherently better or cheaper? Or is it because Talgo is a local manufacturer who only offer that sort of train? It's not unusual for European state-owned operators to select local manufacturers for the majority of rolling stock orders. France does it with Alstom, Germany with Siemens, Switzerland with Stadler, and of course Spain with CAF and Talgo.

I am sure there is truth in what you say; but I merely wanted to point out that the statement is this thread that only SNCF keeps ordering sets with power cars is incomplete, since RENFE does it too.

 

[Bayum]

It all looks a bit… blocky. I don’t know if it’s just me, but it just has this weird look on Amtrak and TGV-M where the power cars seem too short.

 

[Sorcerer]

I am sure there is truth in what you say; but I merely wanted to point out that the statement is this thread that only SNCF keeps ordering sets with power cars is incomplete, since RENFE does it too.

Your statement is true, but SNCF are still very much push-pull only with their TGV fleet whereas RENFE has a mixed fleet of push-pull and EMUs. For what it's worth I also think SNCF are making a conscious decision to stick with push-pull technology simply because it's what they know best, seeing as TGVs were originally planned to be powered with turbines before the oil crisis pushed them to electric but kept the design choice.

 

[Austriantrain]

It all looks a bit… blocky. I don’t know if it’s just me, but it just has this weird look on Amtrak and TGV-M where the power cars seem too short.

As pointed out before: it’s a feature, the power cars are as short as possible to enable 9 intermediate cars instead of 8 on the current duplex - so to further increase capacity, since maximum train length is limited to +/- 400 meters.

 

[duesselmartin]

What's the main advantage of units with power cars like this versus proper multiple units?

Personally I think trains with power cars have a smoother ride and are quieter. Look at the UK Class 800 vs Intercity 125

 

[Bletchleyite]

Personally I think trains with power cars have a smoother ride and are quieter. Look at the UK Class 800 vs Intercity 125

The Mk3 ride is different from the 80x, but I'd not call it good. Similarly with the noise. The best riding UK train is probably between the Class 158 and the Class 221, both D(E)MUs.

Power cars are worth it for a diesel, but for an EMU both are very quiet unless badly designed (e.g. the horrid whine you get in Lumo 80x, and only theirs for some reason).

 

[Sorcerer]

Personally I think trains with power cars have a smoother ride and are quieter. Look at the UK Class 800 vs Intercity 125

Definitely the case with diesel power since the engines of a multiple unit lead to underfloor vibrations that can make a carriage rather noisy and shaky. But with electric the difference is negligible, and all very high-speed trains like the TGV are thankfully electric. I dread to imagine the level of noise and vibration you would get of diesel motors accelerating to 300km/h if ever it were possible.