What could replace 465 and 466 networkers?

[py_megapixel]

I’ve ruled out CAF as I think their trains are very poor.

Really poor ride quality and their trains aren’t nicely designed either.

Plus they don’t have much UK EMU experience either and they have never built 3rd rail units for the uk either.

Weirdly, the electric stuff rides pretty nicely compared to the diesels. Certainly better than a Hitachi.

CAF has their advantages too. The reliability of them seems to have settled down a bit (unlike the Aventras, most of which they still can't even get into service!), they genuinely feel very light and spacious, and if the operator can be bothered to spec them properly, the window alignment and seating comfort can be good.

When you say "nicely designed", do you mean interior wise, or exterior wise? Because the interior is usually pretty much entirely specced by the TOC, while how futuristic it looks on the exterior won't really matter in the slightest to the TOC management (just look at the 701!)

I should remind you that Stadler also had zero experience building third rail for the UK, and yet Merseyrail selected them.
GA chose them despite the fact that they had no experience at all in the UK - CAF had at least done the bodyshells for the 331s and 333s, and the trams for the West Midlands and Edinburgh.

Overall, I don't think CAF would be the ideal choice, but I don't think they would be the worst either. And if the fact that they're cheaper than Siemens - which I could well believe - is true, then that could well be an advantage too, given the cuts to rail spending we are likely to see over the coming years.

If you want to go worse than CAF, how about AnsaldoBreda

 

[D365]

If you want to go worse than CAF, how about AnsaldoBreda

Hence Hitachi Rail Italy being an option!

 

[221101 Voyager]

Weirdly, the electric stuff rides pretty nicely compared to the diesels. Certainly better than a Hitachi.

CAF has their advantages too. The reliability of them seems to have settled down a bit (unlike the Aventras, most of which they still can't even get into service!), they genuinely feel very light and spacious, and if the operator can be bothered to spec them properly, the window alignment and seating comfort can be good.

When you say "nicely designed", do you mean interior wise, or exterior wise? Because the interior is usually pretty much entirely specced by the TOC, while how futuristic it looks on the exterior won't really matter in the slightest to the TOC management (just look at the 701!)

I should remind you that Stadler also had zero experience building third rail for the UK, and yet Merseyrail selected them.
GA chose them despite the fact that they had no experience at all in the UK - CAF had at least done the bodyshells for the 331s and 333s, and the trams for the West Midlands and Edinburgh.

Overall, I don't think CAF would be the ideal choice, but I don't think they would be the worst either. And if the fact that they're cheaper than Siemens - which I could well believe - is true, then that could well be an advantage too, given the cuts to rail spending we are likely to see over the coming years.

If you want to go worse than CAF, how about AnsaldoBreda

When I say CAF are not nicely designed I mean the exterior design of the 195s/331s for example look old and cheap to me.

The 397s look good in and out but once again have a cheap feeling to them.

Fair enough on Stadler not having experience in the UK before the 745/755 & 777 but the GA units are a quality product having been on one myself I was very impressed with them.

CAF haven't really done a good job on any trains for the UK really the 195s/331s aren't that nice and the same goes even for the slightly better 397.

332s and 333s are alright though but nothing more.

CAF is certainly one of the worst choices. They are cheaper than siemens for a good reason - ahem build quality and relaibility at siemens is considerably better.

Saying that with regards to price - cheaping out means a poor quality train which will haunt it's users for 30 years, whereas if SE ordered something from Stadler, Siemens or Bombardier you get a decent train (if Bombardier sorts out the software that is)

 

[Mikey C]

My answer would be "any of the above plus CAF"

The presence of the 707s isn't an issue, as the order will be a massive one, dwarfing the number of 707s.

Sorting out Charing Cross so that it can cope with 12 car trains on all platforms will be crucial and very expensive.

 

[LLivery]

Tbh, anything that's proven to be reliable would be good. So, I'd gladly have more Desiro Cities for Southeastern. Surprised Hitachi isn't more in favour considering the reliability of the ScotRail fleet.

Personally I think a 8 car Class 700 formation with the Class 717 interior in standard class and the Class 700 interior in 1st Class would be onto a winner as one Class 700 could replace a pair of Class 465s meaning you would need less for the same capacity.

Plus being 8 car formations, they could interwork Victoria, Charing Cross and Cannon Street services whereas being 10 or even 12 car formations you have infrastructure limitations on some routes.

I think the cab though would be a full width one which does rule out multiple working but I think that a Class 700 type would be equally at home on the Metro services and on the Mainline services as and when required which apart from being a more reliable and a upgrade to passengers, also means easier to manage plus they could work from all three SE London terminuses and not be restricted to specific routes.

They probably settle for more 5 car Class 707s but I think to get around the infrastructure limits that exist, a 8 car type would be the best thing to do.

Apart from the Penge East line, there's a reason why we've got the advantage of 10-12 car platforms everywhere in South London - 8 car trains would cause overcrowding even on weekends. It's not unusual for a 10 car 376 on the Hayes line on a summer's saturday to be standing only once it leaves Ladywell. The last thing they should be doing is buying shorter trains on a network struggling for track capacity.

 

[Aictos]

Tbh, anything that's proven to be reliable would be good. So, I'd gladly have more Desiro Cities for Southeastern. Surprised Hitachi isn't more in favour considering the reliability of the ScotRail fleet.



Apart from the Penge East line, there's a reason why we've got the advantage of 10-12 car platforms everywhere in South London - 8 car trains would cause overcrowding even on weekends. It's not unusual for a 10 car 376 on the Hayes line on a summer's saturday to be standing only once it leaves Ladywell. The last thing they should be doing is buying shorter trains on a network struggling for track capacity.

The only reason I mentioned 8 car trains is so they could interwork diagrams from all three London terminuses that they serve, course you could use 12 cars out of Victoria and just use SDO on the platforms that are not capable of fully platforming the train.

 

[Chiltern006]

Looking through this I have some points to make

Hitachi-Havent developed a third rail suburban/metro EMU yet

CAF- There quite poor, and again, have they developed a third rail EMU yet?

Stadler- Would be good for Southeastern, they are good trains, but a microfleet is troublesome and annoying. Would have to be a full metro fleet replacement, including the 707s

Bombardier- Again, ideally good, something like the 701s, but with 4 and 8 car formations instead

Siemens- Perfect for SE, can work with the 707s, only things i would add is better seats (ie Greater Anglia fisa lean seats) and a toilet. Some 8 and 12 car ones aswell with a first class compartment could allow the 377s to transfer back to Southern to replace the 313s.

What do you think? the networkers will need replacing soon, so something will be announced soon i assume

 

[swt_passenger]

Hitachi/CAF
I think getting one of the usual third party suppliers to add third rail pickup gear to the bogies would not really be a significant issue? Certainly not a reason to rule them out.

 

[221101 Voyager]

Looking through this I have some points to make

Hitachi-Havent developed a third rail suburban/metro EMU yet

CAF- There quite poor, and again, have they developed a third rail EMU yet?

Stadler- Would be good for Southeastern, they are good trains, but a microfleet is troublesome and annoying. Would have to be a full metro fleet replacement, including the 707s

Bombardier- Again, ideally good, something like the 701s, but with 4 and 8 car formations instead

Siemens- Perfect for SE, can work with the 707s, only things i would add is better seats (ie Greater Anglia fisa lean seats) and a toilet. Some 8 and 12 car ones aswell with a first class compartment could allow the 377s to transfer back to Southern to replace the 313s.

What do you think? the networkers will need replacing soon, so something will be announced soon i assume

I think 707s on SE aren't a long term thing as I've heard the units are to be vinyled not repainted.


I reckon they will use 707s as a stop gap until they have a long term replacement for the metro fleet of 465/466/707s.

I reckon that CAF and Hitachi are the least likely option, whereas I see Bombardier or Siemens being most likely, but I would not discount Stadler as this is the 2020's and anything could happen!

I also think 707s may be made redundant once SE get rid of them as there is only so many routes that don't require a toilet.

 

[Energy]

I also think 707s may be made redundant once SE get rid of them as there is only so many routes that don't require a toilet.

The 707s got pre plummed, a toilet is possible to be fitted.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It's worth remembering that Siemens also had no experience building 3rd rail units for the UK, until they did. Having done their research the 450s worked pretty much out of the box. Stadler also may have no UK 3rd rail experience, but they do have experience with 3rd rail units built for SNCF, and those were for a route where the track quality would make the Island Line look like HS1 by comparison.

 

[Chiltern006]

I think 707s on SE aren't a long term thing as I've heard the units are to be vinyled not repainted.


I reckon they will use 707s as a stop gap until they have a long term replacement for the metro fleet of 465/466/707s.

I reckon that CAF and Hitachi are the least likely option, whereas I see Bombardier or Siemens being most likely, but I would not discount Stadler as this is the 2020's and anything could happen!

I also think 707s may be made redundant once SE get rid of them as there is only so many routes that don't require a toilet.

707s are only getting a vinyl as the red paint on them is new. the 375s had vinyls in most places iirc

 

[ComUtoR]

If they replaced networkers in their entirity then I would like to see a fully unified fleet with a complete across the board replacement.

 

[py_megapixel]

If they replaced networkers in their entirity then I would like to see a fully unified fleet with a complete across the board replacement.

Including the Javelins?

But no, in all seriousness replacing the Electrostars (well, other than the 376s) seems a bit silly. Some of them aren't even 10 years old yet, and there's not exactly a shortage of EMU stock at the moment!

 

[221101 Voyager]

The 707s got pre plummed, a toilet is possible to be fitted.

Interesting I never knew that.

Also on a side, here is a diagram I made of what a Stadler Metro SE train could look like.


Here is a SE 707 Desiro City.


Here is a Bombardier 710 style SE Aventra.



Please let me know what looks best...

707s are only getting a vinyl as the red paint on them is new. the 375s had vinyls in most places iirc

Fair enough.

Including the Javelins?

But no, in all seriousness replacing the Electrostars (well, other than the 376s) seems a bit silly. Some of them aren't even 10 years old yet, and there's not exactly a shortage of EMU stock at the moment!

Certainly.

I think they should end up with a fleet of the 375/377s, 395s and then either an All Aventra, All desiro or all Stadler metro fleet.


I also propose the top speed to be 85 mph as that can give more operational flexibility.

 

[ComUtoR]

Including the Javelins?

I've always believe that HS1 will eventually be cut off from SE and run independently.....

But no, in all seriousness replacing the Electrostars (well, other than the 376s) seems a bit silly.

Unified fleets bring benefits. There would be an oportunity to benefit passengers and the TOC for the long term future. TBH it would be a shame to waste that oportunity.

 

[Energy]

Unified fleets bring benefits. There would be an oportunity to benefit passengers and the TOC for the long term future. TBH it would be a shame to waste that oportunity.

I think the 375/377 and metro fleets are fine seperate, they cover different lengths of journeys.

 

[221101 Voyager]

I think the 375/377 and metro fleets are fine seperate, they cover different lengths of journeys.

Definitely good point there.

If they want optimum unified-ness, then they should have Aventras.

That way then all their non-high speed fleet would be Bombardier built and then just the 395s from Hitachi. That is about as unified as they could get.

Also, do you like the diagrams I made a couple of posts back?

 

[Domh245]

Please let me know what looks best...

They all look like dark blue, doors at third emus!
The stadler one is based off the 777s I assume although you've missed out their main gimmick of course (the articulated bogies)

I also propose the top speed to be 85 mph as that can give more operational flexibility.

Why limit yourself to 85. The 701s have a 100mph top speed (which won't be used on any of their normal services) but presumably will still accelerate briskly enough for suburban timetables with short distances.

 

[Mikey C]

Looking through this I have some points to make

Hitachi-Havent developed a third rail suburban/metro EMU yet

CAF- There quite poor, and again, have they developed a third rail EMU yet?

Stadler- Would be good for Southeastern, they are good trains, but a microfleet is troublesome and annoying. Would have to be a full metro fleet replacement, including the 707s

Bombardier- Again, ideally good, something like the 701s, but with 4 and 8 car formations instead

Siemens- Perfect for SE, can work with the 707s, only things i would add is better seats (ie Greater Anglia fisa lean seats) and a toilet. Some 8 and 12 car ones aswell with a first class compartment could allow the 377s to transfer back to Southern to replace the 313s.

What do you think? the networkers will need replacing soon, so something will be announced soon i assume

Do they? The Networkers are the same age as the 165s/166s, and nobody is talking about replacing them anytime soon

Yes they are shabby, but that's because they need a good refurbishment. Hopefully the 707s will allow more slack in the fleet, enabling this to happen

 

[221101 Voyager]

They all look like dark blue, doors at third emus!
The stadler one is based off the 777s I assume although you've missed out their main gimmick of course (the articulated bogies)



Why limit yourself to 85. The 701s have a 100mph top speed (which won't be used on any of their normal services) but presumably will still accelerate briskly enough for suburban timetables with short distances.

The stadler one is based on a 777, but I’ve made the carriages longer, and added normal bogies instead, as articulated ones may not work too well for a much longer carriage than a 777 is.

True if a 100mph top speed does not affect acceleration too much then I don’t why SEs new units couldn‘t do that.

Which unit would you choose @Domh245 out of the Stadler, Siemens or Bombardier one?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Do the Networkers need replacing yet?

 

[221101 Voyager]

Do the Networkers need replacing yet?

They are pretty scruffy and I've heard there has been reliability issues. I don't know the specific mileage per failure of the units but people on here have said their relaibility is a bit iffy.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

They are pretty scruffy and I've heard there has been reliability issues. I don't know the specific mileage per failure of the units but people on here have said their relaibility is a bit iffy.

scruff can be dealt with by refresh, reliability is probably a more key criteria if they are iffy

 

[Domh245]

The stadler one is based on a 777, but I’ve made the carriages longer, and added normal bogies instead, as articulated ones may not work too well for a much longer carriage than a 777 is.

If you were being true to form, Stadler would probably offer an articulated arrangement with shorter vehicles than build a conventional 20m layout - something like a 5-for-4 car arrangement with nominal 16m articulated vehicles. Could cause issues around platform lengths however where things are limited at 200m lengths.

I don't really have a preference, but I would be hesitant about Stadlers. Longer door cycle times for the could cause issues (although are obviously preferable for accessibility), as would the above mentioned articulation/vehicle length quandary. It'd also depend if they'd build these as a FLIRT, or as a 'metro' and what impact this would have on traction electronics and floor space - FLIRTS all have above floor traction electronic packages put behind the cabs, whilst metros have below floor packs but compromise in terms of power/acceleration/speed.

Desiro cities would be the pragmatic choice given the 707s (subject to upgrades to bring them in line with the rest of the new units), but Alstom Aventras would certainly be welcome for the sake of keeping Derby busy

 

[221101 Voyager]

If you were being true to form, Stadler would probably offer an articulated arrangement with shorter vehicles than build a conventional 20m layout - something like a 5-for-4 car arrangement with nominal 16m articulated vehicles. Could cause issues around platform lengths however where things are limited at 200m lengths.

I don't really have a preference, but I would be hesitant about Stadlers. Longer door cycle times for the could cause issues (although are obviously preferable for accessibility), as would the above mentioned articulation/vehicle length quandary. It'd also depend if they'd build these as a FLIRT, or as a 'metro' and what impact this would have on traction electronics and floor space - FLIRTS all have above floor traction electronic packages put behind the cabs, whilst metros have below floor packs but compromise in terms of power/acceleration/speed.

Desiro cities would be the pragmatic choice given the 707s (subject to upgrades to bring them in line with the rest of the new units), but Alstom Aventras would certainly be welcome for the sake of keeping Derby busy

True on the point in bold.

I think in terms of formations they could have a mixture of the equivalents to 4x20m or 8x20m and then combine a '4' & '8' to make a '12' at busy times for example.

Or for real flexibility have a mixture of the equivalent of 3x20m, 4x20m and 8x20m then they would have a very versatile fleet.

Each coach size depends on final spec and manufacturer though.

 

[Chiltern006]

707s will probably be preferable as crew will already know the units well, so expect them

 

[221101 Voyager]

707s will probably be preferable as crew will already know the units well, so expect them

Trouble is though is that 707s are 5x20m which means that you have a choice of 5 or 10 cars only.

Is there many platforms on SE metro that can take 12 coaches?

If there is enough platforms that can take 12 coaches, maybe any future metro orders would have more flexibility if they were 4x20m allowing for 4, 8 or 12 coach formations.

 

[Domh245]

Trouble is though is that 707s are 5x20m which means that you have a choice of 5 or 10 cars only.

They're currently 5x20m, certainly not out of the realms of possibility for them to be extended, reformed, reconfigured etc although given the split nature of the SE metro routes (at least, far as I can tell) in having platforms in multiples of 80m and 100m a mixed fleet of reconfigured 10 and 8 car 707s would perhaps be best

 

[Mikey C]

Trouble is though is that 707s are 5x20m which means that you have a choice of 5 or 10 cars only.

Is there many platforms on SE metro that can take 12 coaches?

If there is enough platforms that can take 12 coaches, maybe any future metro orders would have more flexibility if they were 4x20m allowing for 4, 8 or 12 coach formations.

Nearly all the stations on the lines out of Charing Cross/Cannon Street have 12 car platforms, Woolwich Dockyard is one exception where SDO would be needed

On that basis, 6*20m units might be a better solution, avoiding the overkill of empty 12 car 700s when quiet, but enabling 12 car operations when needed. Would this fit into Charing Cross's restricted platforms?