What defines a heritage railway (as opposed to a fairground ride)

[12C]

Apologies for this slightly bizarre thread title, but the recent discussions over heritage railways becoming effectively ‘fairground rides’ with regards to set itineraries etc got me thinking, where is the line actually crossed between a railway which is governed by ORR/light railway order and a theme park/fairground attraction?

Some examples; I recently visited Drayton Manor Park. This has 2 narrow gauge railways, one circular around the park and one end to end in the ‘Thomas Land’ area, complete with turntables and level crossings. Both look to be roughly 2’ gauge. Would Drayton Manor have to follow ORR guidelines for operating a railway, such as staff competence and safety management and would they fall under a light railway order? The park certainly seemed to class them as ‘rides’ and the staff operating them seemed to be interchanging between other rides at the park.

Or the classic Blackpool Pleasure Beach Express, 21” gauge I believe. Does this have it’s own light railway order or is it simply classed as a fairground ride?

Another (maybe more extreme!) example, the Scenic Railway at Great Yarmouth Pleasure Beach. At first this might seem obviously a rollercoaster, but in essence to be it has more in common with a railway. The cars have flanged wheels running on steel rail, and the train is controlled by a brake man who travels on the train. This is allowed to run at up to 45mph, something which heritage railways even with the most perfect infrastructure, rolling stock and professionalism could only dream of!

 

[timj]

Apologies for this slightly bizarre thread title, but the recent discussions over heritage railways becoming effectively ‘fairground rides’ with regards to set itineraries etc got me thinking, where is the line actually crossed between a railway which is governed by ORR/light railway order and a theme park/fairground attraction?

Some examples; I recently visited Drayton Manor Park. This has 2 narrow gauge railways, one circular around the park and one end to end in the ‘Thomas Land’ area, complete with turntables and level crossings. Both look to be roughly 2’ gauge. Would Drayton Manor have to follow ORR guidelines for operating a railway, such as staff competence and safety management and would they fall under a light railway order? The park certainly seemed to class them as ‘rides’ and the staff operating them seemed to be interchanging between other rides at the park.

Or the classic Blackpool Pleasure Beach Express, 21” gauge I believe. Does this have it’s own light railway order or is it simply classed as a fairground ride?

Another (maybe more extreme!) example, the Scenic Railway at Great Yarmouth Pleasure Beach. At first this might seem obviously a rollercoaster, but in essence to be it has more in common with a railway. The cars have flanged wheels running on steel rail, and the train is controlled by a brake man who travels on the train. This is allowed to run at up to 45mph, something which heritage railways even with the most perfect infrastructure, rolling stock and professionalism could only dream of!

Also the Great Yarmouth Scenic Railway has some colour light signals, whichs makes it even more real railwayish and adds to your argument.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I have a vague recollection that ORR safety ‘jurisdiction’ is defined by gauge rather than age or ‘purpose’. Down as low as 15” (e.g. Ravenglass or Romney Hythe & Dymchurch) is certainly a ‘proper railway’.

 

[12C]

I have a vague recollection that ORR safety ‘jurisdiction’ is defined by gauge rather than age or ‘purpose’. Down as low as 15” (e.g. Ravenglass or Romney Hythe & Dymchurch) is certainly a ‘proper railway’.

I seem to remember reading something similar myself, if this is the case I wonder if theme park railways are under the same scrutiny as ‘proper’ heritage railways? As in have to have a rule book, monitor driver competence, signalling, etc? As purely by observation (at Drayton Manor at least) they seem to be operated by general theme park staff. I’ve also never seen any reference to a light railway order for any railway operating within an attraction.

Also the Great Yarmouth Scenic Railway has some colour light signals, whichs makes it even more real railwayish and adds to your argument.

Indeed, and this would raise the question as to if it is defined as a ‘railway’ why is it allowed to run at 45mph when full size heritage lines with former main line stock are limited to 25.

 

[eldomtom2]

My personal definition of "heritage railway" would be a line (as opposed to a demonstration track) which has as its purpose the preservation and public presentation of historic railway equipment.

Indeed, and this would raise the question as to if it is defined as a ‘railway’ why is it allowed to run at 45mph when full size heritage lines with former main line stock are limited to 25.

The Great Yarmouth Roller Coaster has, I believe, been grandfathered in and is not subject to certain safety regulations. When the similar Scenic Railway at Margate was rebuilt and reopened it had to have magnetic track brakes installed in case for whatever reason the brakeman failed to or was unable to perform his duties.

 

[jamesst]

Totally off topic I know but I wonder what the Alton Towers monorail is classed as then

 

[vectra33]

My local preserved tramway has the option of being either a ride or a railway, the main point to consider is the boarding and alighting points, If you can only get on and off at the same station/stop then its a fairground ride, if you can board at point A then get off at stop B or C before returning to A on a later service, then its more likely to be considered a railway.
In many cases , even if the service is classed as fairground ride, a full rule book is still followed and railway regulations are followed by all staff,

 

[12C]

My local preserved tramway has the option of being either a ride or a railway, the main point to consider is the boarding and alighting points, If you can only get on and off at the same station/stop then its a fairground ride, if you can board at point A then get off at stop B or C before returning to A on a later service, then its more likely to be considered a railway.
In many cases , even if the service is classed as fairground ride, a full rule book is still followed and railway regulations are followed by all staff,

I see what you mean, but there are also instances where a preserved railways in the traditional sense only allow boarding/alighting at one station and only offer a ‘ride’ rather than an actual transport service. The Eden Valley Railway at Warcop for example.

Conversely there are railways within theme parks that actually offer a transportation service. The narrow gauge railway at Drayton Manor which I mentioned above has 2 stations and transports guests to another area of the park, which they can return on later.

I know it might seem a pedantic matter, but I suppose the point I was making was why do heritage railways have to jump through so many hoops, obtaining a light railway order, ORR regulations, RAIB involvement if anything major goes wrong etc, whereas it seems exactly the same thing can exist within an attraction and seemingly not require the same regulations? For example, I’ve tried searching for a light railway order for the Blackpool Pleasure Beach Railway and can’t find anything. Yet until recently it operated 2 stations, and sold tickets to the public who could simply walk in (pre wristband era).

Yet for example, the Romney Hythe and Dymchurch does operate under a light railway order, despite being a smaller gauge.

 

[Fragezeichnen]

I don't see that there's any difference between a longer line run along traditional principles and the example you gave of Drayton Manor.

A Light Railway Order is mainly relevant for construction(compulsory land purchase etc.). Drayton Manor already owns all the land on and near the line so they don't need to worry about that.

Drayton Manor is listed alongside all the usual suspects as a railway undertaking exempt from mainline standards: https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...he-railways-interoperability-regulations-2011. They would have a set of operating regulations, maintainence procedures and training requirements for operators, the same as all their other rides, and the RAIB presumably would investigate if there was an incident.

 

[12C]

I don't see that there's any difference between a longer line run along traditional principles and the example you gave of Drayton Manor.

A Light Railway Order is mainly relevant for construction(compulsory land purchase etc.). Drayton Manor already owns all the land on and near the line so they don't need to worry about that.

Drayton Manor is listed alongside all the usual suspects as a railway undertaking exempt from mainline standards: https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...he-railways-interoperability-regulations-2011. They would have a set of operating regulations, maintainence procedures and training requirements for operators, the same as all their other rides, and the RAIB presumably would investigate if there was an incident.

Thanks for the info, that’s interesting to read, clearly fairground railways are recognised as being such. And agreed, I don’t doubt Drayton Manor has its own rules and regulations, regarding operation of its rides.

However I did observe when I was there, a few practices which made me doubt they were working to the same ORR guidelines as a heritage railway would, for example:

There didn’t seem to be any functioning signalling at either station, despite being 2 trains in operation. Certainly no form of token working on the single line sections. The staff were using radios between themselves but these seemed to be generic used throughout the park rather than ‘cab secure’ radios as used on the Ravenglass Eskdale for example, and no signal box overseeing the operation.

Trains were ‘driver only’ with no guard, despite having manual doors which were unlocked.

The coaches appeared to be unbraked when the loco was uncoupled (the train noticeably rolled each time the loco was coupled), although all passengers were off during coupling.

There was an ungated level crossing at the ‘zoo’ end of the line used by pedestrians and park vehicles. This had no warbler alarm, little signage and the loco did not sound a horn when passing over it.

There were no tail lamps used at the end of the train, and no brake continuity test carried out when the loco was coupled/uncoupled.

The run round loops featured sprung points which were passed over in the facing direction by passenger trains without being locked/clamped.

I’m not in any way saying the operation is unsafe, it has a perfect safety record and it operates at a very low speed. But it seems to definitely be working to the ‘theme park’ regulations rather than traditional railway practice. However I can’t imagine any standalone heritage railway would be allowed to operate in this way, which is what got me thinking, possibly a little too deeply about this!

 

[Robert Ambler]

So in answer to the original question the definitions of what is and isn't a railway is set out in the Railways and Other Guided Transport Systems (Safety) Regulations 2006 which can be found at https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2006/599/introduction/made

In summary it says
These regulations supersede all previous legislation and it is worth noting also include the speed limits that apply to railways other than mainline railways.

 

[2192]

.... The run round loops featured sprung points which were passed over in the facing direction by passenger trains without being locked/clamped.

I’m not in any way saying the operation is unsafe, it has a perfect safety record and it operates at a very low speed. But it seems to definitely be working to the ‘theme park’ regulations rather than traditional railway practice. However I can’t imagine any standalone heritage railway would be allowed to operate in this way, which is what got me thinking, possibly a little too deeply about this!

Doesn't the Welsh Highland Railway have slow acting sprung points on the loops? That is clearly not a fairground ride. I assume it has a light railway order.

 

[pdeaves]

So in answer to the original question the definitions of what is and isn't a railway is set out in the Railways and Other Guided Transport Systems (Safety) Regulations 2006 which can be found at https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2006/599/introduction/made

In summary it says
View attachment 114931 These regulations supersede all previous legislation and it is worth noting also include the speed limits that apply to railways other than mainline railways.

That's interesting as I previously thought guided busways counted. Evidently not! For a railway, note that it's track gauge that matters, not how it's used. I would guess that there is scope for 'playing the system' by defining your ride as a fairground ride, though no doubt that opens up a different set of legislation.

 

[Dai Corner]

I take a steam-hauled train to Blackpool, paying a premium fare. Whilst there I ride the rollercoaster at the Pleasure Beach and a heritage tram over the off-road section.

Which are 'fairground rides' and why?

 

[12C]

So in answer to the original question the definitions of what is and isn't a railway is set out in the Railways and Other Guided Transport Systems (Safety) Regulations 2006 which can be found at https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2006/599/introduction/made

In summary it says
View attachment 114931 These regulations supersede all previous legislation and it is worth noting also include the speed limits that apply to railways other than mainline railways.

That’s interesting, thanks. So that answers the question, anything defined as ‘fairground equipment’ isn’t classed as a railway, which I guess would include all ‘railways’ within theme parks/fairgrounds.

That would certainly explain why they don’t seem to be under the same regulations as heritage railways are, despite basically being the same thing.

I take a steam-hauled train to Blackpool, paying a premium fare. Whilst there I ride the rollercoaster at the Pleasure Beach and a heritage tram over the off-road section.

Which are 'fairground rides' and why?

It would seem using the definition provided above, it would be the rollercoaster, as it is defined as ‘fairground equipment’. Which answers the question as to why a ‘train’ travelling on metal rails sat atop a rickety wooden structure can carry passengers at 40-50mph yet a steam loco on a preserved railway is limited to 25.

 

[Dr Hoo]

There was a case quite a few years ago (pre-internet) where a passenger's scarf or other head/neck gear/clothing was caught in an axle on the Drayton Manor miniature railway and strangled them to death.

(Not the only fatal accident at the park.)

 

[eldomtom2]

So in answer to the original question the definitions of what is and isn't a railway is set out in the Railways and Other Guided Transport Systems (Safety) Regulations 2006 which can be found at https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2006/599/introduction/made

In summary it says
View attachment 114931 These regulations supersede all previous legislation and it is worth noting also include the speed limits that apply to railways other than mainline railways.

This does, however, raise the question of how "fairground equipment" is defined.

 

[krus_aragon]

A Light Railway Order is mainly relevant for construction(compulsory land purchase etc.). Drayton Manor already owns all the land on and near the line so they don't need to worry about that.

An interesting counter-example is the Snowdon Mountain Railway, which needed no Light Railway Order because it was all built on private land.

 

[PupCuff]

Probably the most comprehensive answer lies within the ORR/HSE memorandum of understanding (pdf), which says:

A54. HSE is the EA for the operation of any system that is defined as fairground equipment under section 53 of HSWA29. This will include rides in parks where other health and safety matters are enforced by LAs. If a railway or system of guided transport at a fairground falls outside the definition of 'fairground equipment', then enforcement will fall to ORR. If a railway or system of guided transport is similar to a fairground ride, but is nonetheless designed to carry passengers from one part of the park to another, or even if the journey is designed to see exhibits and begins and eventually ends at the same location, then this also takes it outside the definition of fairground equipment (because it was designed as a transport system rather than for entertainment purposes) and it too will be enforced by ORR.

So we can establish, if it's clearly a ride (in the view of a reasonable person - eg the example of the Great Yarmouth one in the OP) then that would not fall within ORR's scope.

If it's similar to a ride, but carries passengers between places, then it will fall within ORR's scope. And if it goes on a little tour for the purposes of seeing 'things' rather than perhaps the simple enjoyment of being on a bumpy little fairground train, trundling up and down slopes and screeching around tight corners, this will fall within ORR's scope.

Of course, the regulation of any given railway is going to be proportionate to the risk it presents. Despite what it might look like from the outside, the requirements for running a railway are not onerous to a competent safety management professional - the reason that the mainline railway is subject to substantial requirements is because it is a substantial operation with high risk. A review of enforcement notices and prosecutions on the ORR website would suggest that there is not a major issue with safety compliance on ORR regulated 'funfair railways'.

 

[eldomtom2]

And if it goes on a little tour for the purposes of seeing 'things' rather than perhaps the simple enjoyment of being on a bumpy little fairground train, trundling up and down slopes and screeching around tight corners, this will fall within ORR's scope.

Does that mean ghost trains and other "dark rides" fall under the ORR's jurisdiction?

 

[PupCuff]

Does that mean ghost trains and other "dark rides" fall under the ORR's jurisdiction?

I would say they are a ride, rather than being similar to a ride. They typically have bits where you go up and down and sudden drops and things.

 

[eldomtom2]

I would say they are a ride, rather than being similar to a ride. They typically have bits where you go up and down and sudden drops and things.

Some do. What about the ones that don't?

 

[PupCuff]

Some do. What about the ones that don't?

I've never been on one which I would deem not a ride. But I guess in that situation, they could send an inspector round on it a few times to take some notes and make sure?

If there ever is a vacancy for HM Inspector of Ghost Railways I will certainly be applying.

 

[John Luxton]

I am at Aberystwyth on the final day of my Freedom of Wales Rover. Thought I would take a trip on the VOR. Was handed a wristband!!!

Last time I was here I was given a ticket 2018 or 2019.

I asked about tickets and was told I could have one and one was printed but I was told I had to show the wristband to the guard!

Obviously has fairground ride pretentions shame given all the work done here to improve facilities in recent years.

 

[DarloRich]

I am at Aberystwyth on the final day of my Freedom of Wales Rover. Thought I would take a trip on the VOR. Was handed a wristband!!!

Last time I was here I was given a ticket 2018 or 2019.

I asked about tickets and was told I could have one and one was printed but I was told I had to show the wristband to the guard!

Obviously has fairground ride pretentions shame given all the work done here to improve facilities in recent years.

A curmudgeon. You never seem happy unless you have everything the way you want! I was at the SVR diesel gala the other weekend. Wristband. Guess they must be a fairground.

 

[John Luxton]

A curmudgeon. You never seem happy unless you have everything the way you want! I was at the SVR diesel gala the other weekend. Wristband. Guess they must be a fairground.

I am not a curmudgeon and yes the SVR giving out wristbands is behaving in a similar manner. I have no problem with heritage lines wanting to use different forms of ticketing and even an e-ticket on a phone would be acceptable for those that want to use them but wrist bands?

 

[DarloRich]

I am not a curmudgeon and yes the SVR giving out wristbands is behaving in a similar manner. I have no problem with heritage lines wanting to use different forms of ticketing and even an e-ticket on a phone would be acceptable for those that want to use them but wrist bands?

I don't see the issue but I understand change and modernisation is hard for some people to deal with.

 

[John Luxton]

I don't see the issue but I understand change and modernisation is hard for some people to deal with.

As I said not against change you can have any form of railway ticketing. Wrist bands are for theme parks and fair grounds.

 

[43096]

A curmudgeon. You never seem happy unless you have everything the way you want! I was at the SVR diesel gala the other weekend. Wristband. Guess they must be a fairground.

It makes ticket checking a lot easier for something like the SVR diesel gala.

Maybe we need to let the ORR know that John Luxton says the SVR is a fairground ride so they don't need to bother regulating them...

 

[DarloRich]

As I said not against change you can have any form of railway ticketing. Wrist bands are for theme parks and fair grounds.

But a wristband is a form of railway ticketing.

What you mean is it is not a traditional form of railway ticketing. It seems you cant cope with that.