What effects do you think a potential hard brexit might have on UK railways?

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect there is very little that Brexit itself will change if anything at all. We may see fewer non-British people employed by the railway over time, possibly, or we may see an increase in non-EU immigration which would again affect the ethnic makeup of the UK as a whole and therefore the railway.

If Brexit causes a serious long-term economic downturn, however, we may find there is less money to put into subsidies, and that could mean anything from slight reductions in spending on keeping things looking nice through to wholesale closures in the manner the bus industry has been "decimated" by subsidy cuts.

 

[AndrewE]

I think one of the first effects that we shall see will be the deterioration in cleaning quality on stations and trains. All outsourced functions requiring relatively low skill or qualification levels and with low wages are likely to suffer from staff shortages or unreliability as the people who currently do these jobs conclude that they are not welcome.
It is already happening in agriculture, where farmers are cutting back on crops that need manual harvesting.

 

[DarloRich]

We caan still buy them from Europe in the future you know - just that they may be a little bit more expensive

Indeed - More money. More taxpayers money.

Have you fully investigated your claims here? I dont think you have have you?

I am perfectly happy with my position thanks. It is based in day to day experience of this kind of thing.

SB Rail seem to make some machines in this country
Harsco Rail dont seem to have any base in Little (?) Europe
Dymax dont seem to have any base in Little (?) Europe

So I think you may have to readjust your statements to something a little more factual especially if you want to carry on claiming there is no alternative when there really really is.

Like I said I am comfortable with my view. Perhaps you could clarify these points:

• Could you let me know where all of these SB Rail machines were made: https://www.sbrail.com/equipment-and-services/
• Perhaps you can let me know which of the Coals Tamper fleet are UK built.?
• Perhaps you could let me know which of the NR fleet of On Track Machines were made in the UK.
• Perhaps you could let me know where Rail mounted Cranes come from? It isn't Cowans Sheldon anymore!
• Could you let me know where the Balfour Rail fleet of tampers come from?
• Finally could you let me know which UK company is building this equipment, where they build it and who they sell it to?

Dymaxrail make OTP based equipment. That simply isn't suitable for the kind of work or volume of work the machines I am talking about undertake.
Harsco Rail equipment is made in America. We have no idea what our trading framework with the USA will be in the future. They also don't make (yet) a UK/European style tamper or regulator

PS you missed LORAM off your list.

Is there a suggestion that tamping machines aren't made anywhere else in the world, apart from the EU?
Because not being in the EU means we can buy from China and other markets at a much easier/better rate doesn't it?

NR already buy equipment from outside of the UK. The issue is that importing that material is covered by out existing EU trade deals. We have to negotiate new deals with third party countries and we do not know what the terms of those deals will be. I am not naive enough to think they will be identical and I am not naive enough to think that railway equipment will form a important part of those conversations!

We can already buy things from China. There are some clear reasons why that doesn't happen. The obvious one is quality.

 

[Moodster020]

If only this qas the case!

Not one of you has identified the real risks to the uk railway and its supply chain. It matters not if it is a hard or soft Brexit really. Think about where equipment comes from. Think where parts come from. There is massive risk.

In a market, demand is the lead & the supply follows on. If someone abstains supply for political or whatever reasons, a competitor pops up to replace them to meet the demand.

 

[Ken H]

If we leave on WTO there are limits on the amount of tariffs the EU can impose on the UK. And the UK government can set import tariffs based on the needs of the UK. These dont have to be the same as those imposed by the EU.

 

[whhistle]

NR already buy equipment from outside of the UK. The issue is that importing that material is covered by out existing EU trade deals. We have to negotiate new deals with third party countries and we do not know what the terms of those deals will be. I am not naive enough to think they will be identical and I am not naive enough to think that railway equipment will form a important part of those conversations!

We can already buy things from China. There are some clear reasons why that doesn't happen. The obvious one is quality.

I do enjoy your posts but the amount of fear of leaving the EU is astounding.
Nobody knows whether it will be good or bad for us. No predictions will be able to say what is likely to happen really.
In 10 years, then we can make a fairly good judgement. Less than that won't really count as it'll take that long to see the lasting effects.

 

[DarloRich]

I do enjoy your posts but the amount of fear of leaving the EU is astounding.
Nobody knows whether it will be good or bad for us. No predictions will be able to say what is likely to happen really.
In 10 years, then we can make a fairly good judgement. Less than that won't really count as it'll take that long to see the lasting effects.

It isnt fear. It is an understanding of the risk involved in this particular area. I am not worried the county will cease to function but I am concerned about making life harder for ourselves. Afterall people were going mad that KFC ran out of chicken!

I do agreee, however that know one know what will happen. Most experts seem to suggest a negative impact on the economy but we dont know.

The problem is that in the area we are discussing here the effects will be felt sooner than 10 years. It wont be on day one but it will have an effect if only on delivery time and in particular cost.

 

[DarloRich]

In a market, demand is the lead & the supply follows on. If someone abstains supply for political or whatever reasons, a competitor pops up to replace them to meet the demand.

Ok. Thanks for the basic economics lesson. You seem to have missed the point about lack of alternatives. We are talking about specialist highly complex pieces of engineering equipment not butter!

 

[sprunt]

I think it'll be like the y2k "bug".
Nothing will happen.

Whenever anyone says this, you can always take it as a sign that anything else they say can be safely ignored.

 

[squizzler]

I don't think there will be a big problem as far as the railways are concerned. The Brexit fairy won't magically change all our lovely modern trains to steam kettles on the day of departure! There might be big problems affecting society as a whole but rail still holds technical superiority in terms of resource efficiency which will IMO count for more in a period of possible scarcity and greater need to consider such things as CO2 emissions and balance of payments.

Much as I like the EU it must be said that every country to join has benefitted from subsidies normally allocated to motoring over mass transport. Of course we cannot say if the opposite applies for a country leaving the EU 'cos nobody tried it before...

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I think this is actually one of the main driving forces of Brexit. So much of our supply chains rests in Europe for equipment that isn’t particularly high tech-such as buffers-made by the German Rawie. Yes, we have no British owned rail freight companies, manufacturers and many of the TOCs are in European hands. I think this is a wake up cool to lower our trade deficit and increase economic growth in this country but supporting home grown industry.

 

[sprunt]

I thought the big idea was to trade with the world, not be insular?

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I thought the big idea was to trade with the world, not be insular?

Yes, but for some reason that translates to more imports not exports!

 

[Moodster020]

Ok. Thanks for the basic economics lesson. You seem to have missed the point about lack of alternatives. We are talking about specialist highly complex pieces of engineering equipment not butter!

I work in the railway industry & get to speak to alot of people, who often air their views. One i regularly listen to was part of the team who designed the class 60 locomotive, his views on one occasion i remember on a LED headlight cluster, from a particular EU manufacturer, was one of shaking his head, as the price paid for the item didn't meet what the sum of parts was (he said it was way overpriced for what it should be).

Hence we are in a situation why it costs silly money to do basic things. As for things like tampers, i spent today at a rail yard with a JCB rail roader, with a hydraulic arm tamping attachment which was tamping the sidings. Big complicated expensive machines are not always necessary.

In any case, the EU products will still be available to the market post Brexit, but the goods from across the world will be more readily available in addition to that. Which means the rail industry may have its costs lowered, so that it becomes more competitive again versus other forms of transportation.

 

[DarloRich]

I work in the railway industry & get to speak to alot of people, who often air their views. One i regularly listen to was part of the team who designed the class 60 locomotive, his views on one occasion i remember on a LED headlight cluster, from a particular EU manufacturer, was one of shaking his head, as the price paid for the item didn't meet what the sum of parts was (he said it was way overpriced for what it should be).

Hence we are in a situation why it costs silly money to do basic things. As for things like tampers, i spent today at a rail yard with a JCB rail roader, with a hydraulic arm tamping attachment which was tamping the sidings. Big complicated expensive machines are not always necessary.

In any case, the EU products will still be available to the market post Brexit, but the goods from across the world will be more readily available in addition to that. Which means the rail industry may have its costs lowered, so that it becomes more competitive again versus other forms of transportation.

Wow. An item of otp is not suitable for tamping the wcml. Big complicated machines ABSOLUTELY are required for that sort of work. Where do all of those machines come form? Could you make a suggestion? Products from around the world are already available. I wonder why everyone buys tampers from the same place. I suspect you have absolutely no idea why.

I give up.

EDIT - Are you honestly trying to compare a jcb with a full sized tamper and suggest that such an idea offers any weight to your argument? How may of these items do you think might be needed to tamp the real railway on a 6 hour night possession?

supporting home grown industry.

Could you tell me which part of our "home grown industry" is building tamping machines?

 

[Mutant Lemming]

I don't know - how do they operate in non-EU countries like Switzerland and Norway ?

 

[Emyr]

I don't know - how do they operate in non-EU countries like Switzerland and Norway ?

Norway is in the EEA. Switzerland has bilateral agreements which are almost equivalent to EEA membership.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Wow. An item of otp is not suitable for tamping the wcml. Big complicated machines ABSOLUTELY are required for that sort of work. Where do all of those machines come form? Could you make a suggestion? Products from around the world are already available. I wonder why everyone buys tampers from the same place. I suspect you have absolutely no idea why.

I give up.

EDIT - Are you honestly trying to compare a jcb with a full sized tamper and suggest that such an idea offers any weight to your argument? How may of these items do you think might be needed to tamp the real railway on a 6 hour night possession?



Could you tell me which part of our "home grown industry" is building tamping machines?

Exactly my point-we don’t have any home grown industry left.

 

[whhistle]

Afterall people were going mad that KFC ran out of chicken!

That's true!

It's comments like that, which make me think if I'm ever in Government, I'd have someone like you as an advisor easily.

Although I've said our country needs a good war (without the killing?). Something to make people realise you can't just go to the supermarket and pick up fresh fruit whenever you want.
The kids of today won't know what it was like to have ration books and such.

 

[whhistle]

Whenever anyone says this, you can always take it as a sign that anything else they say can be safely ignored.

Why do you say that?
Because there was a lot of fear with y2k and the actual effect was next to nothing.

 

[Moodster020]

Wow. An item of otp is not suitable for tamping the wcml. Big complicated machines ABSOLUTELY are required for that sort of work. Where do all of those machines come form? Could you make a suggestion? Products from around the world are already available. I wonder why everyone buys tampers from the same place. I suspect you have absolutely no idea why.

I give up.

EDIT - Are you honestly trying to compare a jcb with a full sized tamper and suggest that such an idea offers any weight to your argument? How may of these items do you think might be needed to tamp the real railway on a 6 hour night possession?



Could you tell me which part of our "home grown industry" is building tamping machines?

You seem rather agited over a non-issue whatever the why and what fors with the complicated machines side issue.

As i've said, in any case brexit or no brexit, these machinesc wether complicated or simple will still be available, but the brexit option is more likely to introduce more competitors to the market, which can only be a good thing

 

[DarloRich]

As i've said, in any case brexit or no brexit, these machinesc wether complicated or simple will still be available, but the brexit option is more likely to introduce more competitors to the market, which can only be a good thing

Simply parroting that Brexit will deliver wonderful new opportunities and competitors fails to engage with the problem. As I have said these competitors already exist, have access to the market (via the EU agreed trade deals that we have to replace) and have bid for work. Why have they not won? Why is it that everyone is buying these machines from Europe?

What you and others miss ( i suspect willfully) is that there are few companies equipped to deliver this equipment. For tampers they are based in Europe. We currently have unfettered access to Europe and products produced there. We might not in the future.

 

[Moodster020]

I would say that they will be available still. If someone from say Brazil asked to buy a fleet of machines from an EU producer, the producer isnt going to decline the purchase because they are not an EU nation, will they?

 

[sprunt]

Why do you say that?
Because there was a lot of fear with y2k and the actual effect was next to nothing.

I say that, because what you said:

I think it'll be like the y2k "bug".
Nothing will happen.

makes it crystal clear that you don't have a clue what you are talking about. For a start, your use of scare quotes around "bug" implies that you don't think it was a real issue. And "Nothing will happen" being like the y2k bug implies that you think nothing happened in relation to that. The reason the "actual effect" was next to nothing was that what happened was a huge amount of work being done by IT professionals to ensure that the real-world impact of the bug would be negligible. That isn't the same as the y2k bug not being a real thing, and therefore everything will be fine with Brexit, for which the equivalent mitigation work has absolutely not been done.

 

[MarkyT]

Why do you say that?
Because there was a lot of fear with y2k and the actual effect was next to nothing.

The reason there was no chaos for y2k was because every single reputable company whose business relied on data processing got people in to modify and patch systems in advance of the problem. They main reason they did that was because of all the (some uninformed people say unwarranted) 'fuss' that preceded the event. Without all that fuss there would no doubt have been a lot more pain, particularly for smaller non safety critical users of technology who did not have much in-house IT expertise. Compared to the sh*tstorm of myriad possibilities in a still yet undefined post Brexit future, for business, y2k was a veritable Sunday afternoon stroll in the sunny uplands.

 

[furnessvale]

I don't know - how do they operate in non-EU countries like Switzerland and Norway ?

Switzerland builds its own tampers called Matisa. They are available for export and I believe the UK has recently signed a trade deal with Switzerland.

 

[whhistle]

The reason there was no chaos for y2k was because every single reputable company whose business relied on data processing got people in to modify and patch systems in advance of the problem.

Yah, okay!
"every single reputable company"
How would you, personally, know that information?
I guess it's just one of those things that isn't fact, it's just what you think
I'm out of this discussion!

 

[Clip]

Indeed - More money. More taxpayers money.



I am perfectly happy with my position thanks. It is based in day to day experience of this kind of thing.



Like I said I am comfortable with my view. Perhaps you could clarify these points:

• Could you let me know where all of these SB Rail machines were made: https://www.sbrail.com/equipment-and-services/
• Perhaps you can let me know which of the Coals Tamper fleet are UK built.?
• Perhaps you could let me know which of the NR fleet of On Track Machines were made in the UK.
• Perhaps you could let me know where Rail mounted Cranes come from? It isn't Cowans Sheldon anymore!
• Could you let me know where the Balfour Rail fleet of tampers come from?
• Finally could you let me know which UK company is building this equipment, where they build it and who they sell it to?

Dymaxrail make OTP based equipment. That simply isn't suitable for the kind of work or volume of work the machines I am talking about undertake.
Harsco Rail equipment is made in America. We have no idea what our trading framework with the USA will be in the future. They also don't make (yet) a UK/European style tamper or regulator

PS you missed LORAM off your list.



NR already buy equipment from outside of the UK. The issue is that importing that material is covered by out existing EU trade deals. We have to negotiate new deals with third party countries and we do not know what the terms of those deals will be. I am not naive enough to think they will be identical and I am not naive enough to think that railway equipment will form a important part of those conversations!

We can already buy things from China. There are some clear reasons why that doesn't happen. The obvious one is quality.

I dont have to answer any of your questions as I really dont care for them because I was not the one who made a clear statement that you cannot buy these machines anywhere else in the world - your words, not mine. I was merely pointing out that you were wrong.

 

[Ken H]

I dont have to answer any of your questions as I really dont care for them because I was not the one who made a clear statement that you cannot buy these machines anywhere else in the world - your words, not mine. I was merely pointing out that you were wrong.

I am sure Plasser import many of the components from outside Austria, maybe even from outside the EU. There is no reason they cant import part made machines to their Ealing plant and add in non EU parts, thus avoiding EU import tariffs.

 

[Peter Kelford]

I am sure Plasser import many of the components from outside Austria, maybe even from outside the EU. There is no reason they cant import part made machines to their Ealing plant and add in non EU parts, thus avoiding EU import tariffs.

Great idea! Let me pay higher UK or WTO tariffs with more bureaucracy!