What else should have been included in 'Network North' ?

[bluenoxid]

I think you've misread that - the post you're replying to said "a basic 3-car single platform".

Thank you for pointing that out. I have corrected the post. Definitely mistyped but it doesn’t change my opinion on the costs unfortunately.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Thank you for pointing that out. I have corrected the post. Definitely mistyped but it doesn’t change my opinion on the costs unfortunately.

No worries - and I agree with you re the costs!

 

[deltic08]

Most of the trackbed is still there but like a said there's an housing estate now in pool.
You still can see the trackbed in these pics from the leeds rd roundabout heading towards the harrogate line.

Absolutely no way would I say £20m for cracking into an existing signalling system, three switches, a mile of track, a three carriage station and a car park. This kind of project is at least £60m and that’s with the stars aligning for it. And if you are hoping to utilise a 5 minute turnaround in Leeds, there is very little chance that anyone is going to sign off a single lead, single platform and track at the other end. Platform 0 was built to support 4 TPH on the Harrogate line. This would push up to 8 TPH from the Harrogate line

Unfortunately, heavy rail is not really the best value solution for the small “towns” you list without some major changes to infrastructure in the north and an acceptance on development.

Alright, maybe not £20M now but certainly not £60M. Where is your proof for this costing? I have mine.
Only six years ago the same scenario as I mentioned was costed at £17M by local railway consultants opposed to the station proposed in a deep cutting outside Bramhope tunnel, then costed at £25M, as an alternative to this station as a Park and Ride station. The access road and car park as proposed is too steep especially in winter with snow and ice.
What price is £25M in 2017 now then? £75M? That is probably why this station has quietly been dropped.
The idea that passengers using Leeds/Bradford would use this station from Leeds and Harrogate and then change again into a bus to then transfer to the airport is a nonsense when there are direct buses from Leeds and Harrogate already to the airport terminus. It is near enough to use taxis from both places door to door as most do.
These consultants were also in favour of a heavy rail branch to the airport from the siding at Horsfoth with trackwork and signalling already installed in 2013 for such but "experts" kept telling us that a gradient of 1 in 35-45 was too steep for heavy rail ignoring the fact that the entrance and exit to Snow Hill tunnel under the Thames in London is 1 in 29 originally traversed by steam engines and the steepest part of the Lickey Incline is 1 in 39 where electric trains accelerate up from a standing start.
There were already 4tph to/from Harrogate before Platform 0 was built. Platform 0 was built to allow a 3 car Harrogate train and 2x3 car Airedale/Wharfedale train in the same platform when 6 coach trains were proposed pre covid instead of the usual 4.
Light rail is not the solution either for small towns outside of Leeds. The small towns are no longer small towns. The ones I have mentioned are all rapidly expanding with them being 3-4 times their size since the decision to close them in 1963. Ripon in particular has 2200 houses in the planning pipeline to be 6 times larger in 2026 than it was in 1963 with most of the employment being in Harrogate and Leeds.
The study Connecting Communities suggested 15,000 population as qualifying for a heavy rail connection. Wetherby almost qualifies and Ripon certainly does with estimated 26,000 population by 2026.
The plan to connect Leeds, Harrogate, York, Leeds/Bradford airport and Ripon by tram train was fortunately dismissed in 2005/2006. A study by North Yorkshire CC to connect Ripon to the Harrogate Loop by tram in 2005 was hurriedly recalculated to heavy rail costs mid study.
We have since discovered that Beeching and team cooked the books to make the Ripon Line look as if it was loosing money when it was actually making a small £13,000 profit by discounting the revenue generated by the army traffic as that did not go through Ripon fare box but paid directly by MOD to BR and non stop passenger and freight train operating costs were added to the operating costs of the line even though they could have easily been diverted via York but sent via Ripon as an operating convenience to free up the Leeds-Micklefield-Church Fenton route that was at capacity even then. The up and down Queen of Scots Pullman and Heysham-Teesside tanks were examples. He stole the railway from us.
Beeching was evil and didn't deserve a Knighthood. No one will persuade the people of Ripon different.

It was dismantled on completion of the bore.

What a waste of money for one job. How much did it cost to build?

 

[bluenoxid]

Pool P&R station

Have you got a copy of the report by the local railway consultants? How many assumptions and what years pricing have they used?

Personally, I’m using £35m per mile, £15m for the station and car park and £10m for the switches, crossings and signalling required to join the network. Everything is large doses relative to the length of the scheme, which means that the “cost savings” from lengthier sections of plain track like Levenmouth and the Border Railway are lost here creating a short spur. Skelmersdale is another example where the costs sound ridiculous but you’ve got a junction and full station to deliver in that short spur. I would admit to cooking the figures high but I wouldn’t be taking anyone putting forward sub £50m as being serious without having seen them surveying the proposed route and digging into the formation that they are planning to use.

Leeds-Bradford Airport Parkway

I was ambivalent on the Parkway station for the airport but I could see the benefits. Currently the bus from the centre of Leeds is a long, unreliable timetabled 35-40 minute slog through Kirkstall. The station and the proposed shift of the terminal to the long stay car parks would have shifted the bus connection to a couple of minutes, with a 15-30 minute frequency and ~20 ish minute end to end journey time. It would have also put Leeds-Bradford on par with Luton, which was a similar size to Leeds-Bradford in terms of passenger numbers at the time Luton Airport Parkway railway station opened. A lot of people didn’t like it but I think the local transport authorities laid down a sensible gauntlet to the airport.

The business case for the station has been hit by the changes to commuting patterns post covid (it was going to be a north west Leeds P&R stop) and the step back from the Leeds-Bradford Airport relief road, which would have provided the link road

Leeds Bradford Airport direct link (station at the airport served by a branch from Horsforth)

A direct rail link suffers from the same issue that destroyed the Glasgow Airport Rail Link business case. Trains carrying passengers to places where people live (Skipton, Ilkley and Harrogate) are going to have a better case than virtually empty trains carrying people to an airport.

Connecting Communities

Connecting Communities is 15 years old next year. It was drafted by a pro- rail organisation in a different political environment and forecast for rail. My memory might be off but I don’t recall any of those settlements that you mentioned making the final set of recommendations in that report.

Ripon

Beeching and the general feeling of life being unfair doesn’t really matter nor does it build a business case.

Personally, my view on the campaign for restoring rail to Ripon is that they’re looking at the wrong route. If you were going to do anything, I would suggest looking towards Thirsk and the best option to get a link to the national rail network off the ground this side of 2050 might not be a train.

 

[Dr Hoo]

We have since discovered that Beeching and team cooked the books to make the Ripon Line look as if it was loosing money when it was actually making a small £13,000 profit by discounting the revenue generated by the army traffic as that did not go through Ripon fare box but paid directly by MOD to BR and non stop passenger and freight train operating costs were added to the operating costs of the line even though they could have easily been diverted via York but sent via Ripon as an operating convenience to free up the Leeds-Micklefield-Church Fenton route that was at capacity even then. The up and down Queen of Scots Pullman and Heysham-Teesside tanks were examples. He stole the railway from us.
Beeching was evil and didn't deserve a Knighthood. No one will persuade the people of Ripon different.

You've got me confused here. The Ripon closure case was decided by Barbara Castle after a submission by British Rail under Chairman Stanley Raymond. Closure was in March 1967, almost two years after Richard Beeching had left BR and received his knighthood under a socialist government.

Castle and Raymond had been working on the 'Network for Development' documents, which they co-signed and published, also in March 1967. This clearly showed Ripon closed to passengers but retaining a freight line as far as Melmerby that allowed the MoD traffic to continue for a while. Final closure was in mid-1969, I think.

(Beeching's 'Trunk Routes' document of February 1965 had, of course, proposed the Leeds-Micklefield-Church Fenton route as one worthy of investment.)

 

[jonesy3001]

Redoubling and electrifying the track between guide bridge and stockport and reinstate the train service instead of the once a week running parliamentary service.

 

[deltic08]

Ripon

Beeching and the general feeling of life being unfair doesn’t really matter nor does it build a business case.

Personally, my view on the campaign for restoring rail to Ripon is that they’re looking at the wrong route. If you were going to do anything, I would suggest looking towards Thirsk and the best option to get a link to the national rail network off the ground this side of 2050 might not be a train.

Ripon

Beeching and the general feeling of life being unfair doesn’t really matter nor does it build a business case.

Personally, my view on the campaign for restoring rail to Ripon is that they’re looking at the wrong route. If you were going to do anything, I would suggest looking towards Thirsk and the best option to get a link to the national rail network off the ground this side of 2050 might not be a train.

It very much does matter to the population of Ripon. We were cheated out of our railway. Had Beeching done his job properly instead of being incompetent, then Ripon would still be rail connected and Harrogate, the largest town in North Yorkshire, would be on a through route to the North and not on a branch line.
As a Ripon-Leeds daily commuter in the late 1960s, closure directly impacted on my life. My commute now included motoring to Harrogate on a poor A road, finding a parking space at an already full car park instead of cycling to Ripon station, negotiating very busy Harrogate roads as the station was in central Harrogate. This increased my 45 minute commute to 65 minutes. Progress

A study was undertaken in 2004 to determine if the Ripon line should go via Thirsk or Northallerton. It concluded that Thirsk station is too far from the town for local journeys from Ripon and Harrogate, it was cheaper to join the two track ECML at Northallerton than four track at Thirsk and that the majority of passengers from Ripon and Harrogate wanted the faster route direct to Northallerton so your view is incorrect.

£35M for less than a mile of single track railway? £10M for three switches and three signals? £15M for a single wooden jigsaw type platform?
Two switches, two signals and a relayed siding were installed in Harrogate to accommodating terminating London trains in November 2021 costing £2M.
A single jigsaw platform with lighting to accommodate 3 coaches is less than £2M. The platforms built at Workington North as an emergency measure were only in the hundreds of thousands.

 

[Dr Hoo]

It very much does matter to the population of Ripon. We were cheated out of our railway. Had Beeching done his job properly instead of being incompetent, then Ripon would still be rail connected and Harrogate, the largest town in North Yorkshire, would be on a through route to the North and not on a branch line.
As a Ripon-Leeds daily commuter in the late 1960s, closure directly impacted on my life. My commute now included motoring to Harrogate on a poor A road, finding a parking space at an already full car park instead of cycling to Ripon station, negotiating very busy Harrogate roads as the station was in central Harrogate. This increased my 45 minute commute to 65 minutes. Progress

You still seem to be having difficulty in accepting that Ripon's services were only withdrawn a couple of years after Richard Beeching (and Ernest Marples and the tories) had gone, thanks to a submission by a subsequent BR Chairman to a subsequent minister in a subsequent administration under a different political party that had campaigned on a 'no major rail closures' manifesto but then even proceeded to close quite a few more routes that hadn't even been on the original list.

If it's any consolation, the passenger rail service on the closest line to where I was living at the time was also withdrawn under the same administration.

 

[deltic08]

You still seem to be having difficulty in accepting that Ripon's services were only withdrawn a couple of years after Richard Beeching (and Ernest Marples and the tories) had gone, thanks to a submission by a subsequent BR Chairman to a subsequent minister in a subsequent administration under a different political party that had campaigned on a 'no major rail closures' manifesto but then even proceeded to close quite a few more routes that hadn't even been on the original list.

If it's any consolation, the passenger rail service on the closest line to where I was living at the time was also withdrawn under the same administration.

Look at Reshaping of British Railways published in 1963. The decision to close the Harrogate-Ripon-Northallertom line had already been taken, whether Beeching or Marples were around or not, on Beechings recommendation. Gutless Barbera Castle just signed it off.
It was agreed that the line would reopen as a single line between Harrogate and Northallerton with minimal signalling at six level crossings if the Councils in Harrogate, Ripon and Northallerton shared the annual operating cost of £40,000 in proportion of head of population. Ripon and Northallerton agreed but Harrogate refused as they always do to help anybody living outside Harrogate although they had as much to gain as the other two towns. Harrogate was still rail connected and now didn't give a damn. That is when Barbara Castle signed it off as closed
Reopening was complicated by the fact that to prevent the line being used again for diversion after it was temporarily used as a diversion during blockage of the ECML crash south of Thirsk in July 1967 where DP2 was written off, BR demolished an overbridge with explosives without lifting the track first at Sinderby immediately the ECML reopened to prevent the line being opened again after it had been closed. Sick metallity.

 

[The Planner]

Redoubling and electrifying the track between guide bridge and stockport and reinstate the train service instead of the once a week running parliamentary service.

You could run a half hourly service along there now without either of those two things.

 

[bluenoxid]

It very much does matter to the population of Ripon. We were cheated out of our railway. Had Beeching done his job properly instead of being incompetent, then Ripon would still be rail connected and Harrogate, the largest town in North Yorkshire, would be on a through route to the North and not on a branch line.
As a Ripon-Leeds daily commuter in the late 1960s, closure directly impacted on my life. My commute now included motoring to Harrogate on a poor A road, finding a parking space at an already full car park instead of cycling to Ripon station, negotiating very busy Harrogate roads as the station was in central Harrogate. This increased my 45 minute commute to 65 minutes. Progress

A study was undertaken in 2004 to determine if the Ripon line should go via Thirsk or Northallerton. It concluded that Thirsk station is too far from the town for local journeys from Ripon and Harrogate, it was cheaper to join the two track ECML at Northallerton than four track at Thirsk and that the majority of passengers from Ripon and Harrogate wanted the faster route direct to Northallerton so your view is incorrect.

£35M for less than a mile of single track railway? £10M for three switches and three signals? £15M for a single wooden jigsaw type platform?
Two switches, two signals and a relayed siding were installed in Harrogate to accommodating terminating London trains in November 2021 costing £2M.
A single jigsaw platform with lighting to accommodate 3 coaches is less than £2M. The platforms built at Workington North as an emergency measure were only in the hundreds of thousands.

Matters from what is now 50 years ago are not going to build a business case to restore the railway line. The A1 upgrades and A1/M1 link have substantially changed the Leeds-Ripon traffic flow.

I haven’t been able to locate the evidence of the costs for new carriage siding at Harrogate but I would highlight that the switch is straight outside of Harrogate signal box and I understand that there was an old siding there from a very long time ago, so it probably wasn’t the most difficult piece of work to leverage into the existing signalling system.

Costs have risen significant and this proposal would not be built tomorrow even if Rishi signed an effective blank cheque. Portway Park and Ride was over £5m for a single platform (and construction on that started before the recent rises of construction inflation). The car park and access road are also required to be funded. We don’t build wood platforms any more for new stations. Expectations and standards are higher and suggesting the temporary station at Workington North (opened 14 years ago next month) isn’t realistic for a new railway.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Look at Reshaping of British Railways published in 1963. The decision to close the Harrogate-Ripon-Northallertom line had already been taken, whether Beeching or Marples were around or not, on Beechings recommendation. Gutless Barbera Castle just signed it off.
It was agreed that the line would reopen as a single line between Harrogate and Northallerton with minimal signalling at six level crossings if the Councils in Harrogate, Ripon and Northallerton shared the annual operating cost of £40,000 in proportion of head of population. Ripon and Northallerton agreed but Harrogate refused as they always do to help anybody living outside Harrogate although they had as much to gain as the other two towns. Harrogate was still rail connected and now didn't give a damn. That is when Barbara Castle signed it off as closed
Reopening was complicated by the fact that to prevent the line being used again for diversion after it was temporarily used as a diversion during blockage of the ECML crash south of Thirsk in July 1967 where DP2 was written off, BR demolished an overbridge with explosives without lifting the track first at Sinderby immediately the ECML reopened to prevent the line being opened again after it had been closed. Sick metallity.

Some good conspiracy theory stuff here but I'll take it with a pinch of salt.

In the 1963 Reshaping Plan it is made abundantly clear from the Foreword to the Summary, and on the maps, that any withdrawals/closures mentioned were proposals (not a 'decision' in sight). It was, of course, for the Minister of Transport to take the decision, after considering a report from the relevant Transport Users' Consultative Committee. It was Barbara Castle who made the decision about Ripon.

Barbara Castle was in no mood to retain any track or route on the off-chance that it might be needed. In early 1967 she had agreed to let the track on disused Morfa Mawddach-Ruabon (closed under her predecessor Tom Fraser) line be lifted (apart from retaining freight facilities from Ruabon to Llangollen). The Transport Act 1968 introduced the concept of Surplus Track Capacity [hasty elimination thereof] Grants, which gave a new spur to closures, singling and de-quadrification over the next five years.

Despite looking back through Railway Magazine and Modern Railways of the time I haven't been able to find any reports of the alleged 'agreement' about re-opening. When was this?

 

[deltic08]

Matters from what is now 50 years ago are not going to build a business case to restore the railway line. The A1 upgrades and A1/M1 link have substantially changed the Leeds-Ripon traffic flow.

I haven’t been able to locate the evidence of the costs for new carriage siding at Harrogate but I would highlight that the switch is straight outside of Harrogate signal box and I understand that there was an old siding there from a very long time ago, so it probably wasn’t the most difficult piece of work to leverage into the existing signalling system.

Costs have risen significant and this proposal would not be built tomorrow even if Rishi signed an effective blank cheque. Portway Park and Ride was over £5m for a single platform (and construction on that started before the recent rises of construction inflation). The car park and access road are also required to be funded. We don’t build wood platforms any more for new stations. Expectations and standards are higher and suggesting the temporary station at Workington North (opened 14 years ago next month) isn’t realistic for a new railway.

It doesn't really matter about what happened 50 years ago but still irritating.
In 2005 a business case was costed and proved for Ripon-Harrogate at £38M for a long siding operated with one engine in steam or £46M with a dynamic loop and full signalling for 2tph.
BCR was better than Edinburgh-Airdrie, Borders line or Levenmouth.

You have an answer for everything glossing over facts to help your argument.
No, the A1 upgrade to motorway standard has not substantially changed traffic flow of Ripon-Leeds traffic. In 2005 Ripon-Leeds traffic flow on the A61 was 11% of all traffic on this road from Ripon. In 2018, it was still 11%. What has changed is Ripon-Harrogate traffic. Not only has traffic gone up from 49% to 53% of all traffic, but the volume has increased enormously with traffic regularly queueing for 3 miles in the morning peak to get into |Harrogate taking over an hour. This will get worse as Ripon expands without expanding employment. Rail users have to queue also as the station is in the middle of Harrogate.
Ripon-Bradford traffic accounts for 3% of all traffic on the A61 as far as Killinghall.
Traffic volume on the A661 from Wetherby into Harrogate is nearly the same with traffic queueing for an hour.

You don't need to search for evidence about works in Harrogate station to accommodate 6 through London trains per day with long layovers. You will have to take my word for it as it came straight from NR but available in ECML upgrade for Azumas.
Thank you for highlighting that a switch was installed outside the signal box for the siding. I had missed that one. I thought the old switch had been reused. Two other switches were necessary for a facing crossover at the south end and signal for it. A new signal was necessary at platform north end to allow entry into the siding and siding relayed. As the siding had been out of use for so long and previously controlled by a dismantled semiphore, I assume an exit signal was also installed.
A platform was installed in the siding for crew and cleaners to embark and disembark during layover. All completed in two weekends for £2.2M
Harrogate signal box covers the signalling at Arthington so would be no more difficult or expensive to install a trailing crossover and turnout to the branch with one extra distant signal for in and out of the proposed branch. The only difference I can see is less than a mile of single track and single platform 3x the length of the one coach platform installed in the siding.
As you say access road and car park would be extra.
£60M. I don't think so.

Some good conspiracy theory stuff here but I'll take it with a pinch of salt.

In the 1963 Reshaping Plan it is made abundantly clear from the Foreword to the Summary, and on the maps, that any withdrawals/closures mentioned were proposals (not a 'decision' in sight). It was, of course, for the Minister of Transport to take the decision, after considering a report from the relevant Transport Users' Consultative Committee. It was Barbara Castle who made the decision about Ripon.

Do what you like. No skin off my nose. Where is the conspiracy?

I said recommended. You said proposed. That is splitting hairs.

Barbara Castle eventually signed it off but not before a single line service was rejected by Harrogate Council. You are unnecessarily repeating what I said. She did agree to retain the track north of Melmerby until the process of sorting out contributions from local councils to retain a basic line was sorted out.
Not everything is in Modern Rail.

 

[bluenoxid]

It doesn't really matter about what happened 50 years ago but still irritating.
In 2005 a business case was costed and proved for Ripon-Harrogate at £38M for a long siding operated with one engine in steam or £46M with a dynamic loop and full signalling for 2tph.
BCR was better than Edinburgh-Airdrie, Borders line or Levenmouth.

You have an answer for everything glossing over facts to help your argument.
No, the A1 upgrade to motorway standard has not substantially changed traffic flow of Ripon-Leeds traffic. In 2005 Ripon-Leeds traffic flow on the A61 was 11% of all traffic on this road from Ripon. In 2018, it was still 11%. What has changed is Ripon-Harrogate traffic. Not only has traffic gone up from 49% to 53% of all traffic, but the volume has increased enormously with traffic regularly queueing for 3 miles in the morning peak to get into |Harrogate taking over an hour. This will get worse as Ripon expands without expanding employment. Rail users have to queue also as the station is in the middle of Harrogate.
Ripon-Bradford traffic accounts for 3% of all traffic on the A61 as far as Killinghall.
Traffic volume on the A661 from Wetherby into Harrogate is nearly the same with traffic queueing for an hour.

You don't need to search for evidence about works in Harrogate station to accommodate 6 through London trains per day with long layovers. You will have to take my word for it as it came straight from NR but available in ECML upgrade for Azumas.
Thank you for highlighting that a switch was installed outside the signal box for the siding. I had missed that one. I thought the old switch had been reused. Two other switches were necessary for a facing crossover at the south end and signal for it. A new signal was necessary at platform north end to allow entry into the siding and siding relayed. As the siding had been out of use for so long and previously controlled by a dismantled semiphore, I assume an exit signal was also installed.
A platform was installed in the siding for crew and cleaners to embark and disembark during layover. All completed in two weekends for £2.2M
Harrogate signal box covers the signalling at Arthington so would be no more difficult or expensive to install a trailing crossover and turnout to the branch with one extra distant signal for in and out of the proposed branch. The only difference I can see is less than a mile of single track and single platform 3x the length of the one coach platform installed in the siding.
As you say access road and car park would be extra.
£60M. I don't think so.

It doesn’t really matter what either of us think on the short spur to Arthington. The suggestion is not on any official radar and as mentioned by other posters, it’s not the best axis of approach to Otley.

I take a lot of the noughties business cases with a pinch of salt. They were very optimistic about the costs and assumptions.

Arthington is in the middle of plain line and there won’t be any existing interlocking to utilise to build into it. As far as I am aware, it’s panel operation. It won’t be a “£2.2m two weekend job”.

 

[Krokodil]

In the 1963 Reshaping Plan it is made abundantly clear from the Foreword to the Summary, and on the maps, that any withdrawals/closures mentioned were proposals (not a 'decision' in sight).

"Proposals" - how very appropriate to the subject of this thread where the government rather hastily clarified that the list merely consisted of proposals and ideas rather than actual commitments.

 

[deltic08]

It doesn’t really matter what either of us think on the short spur to Arthington. The suggestion is not on any official radar and as mentioned by other posters, it’s not the best axis of approach to Otley.

I take a lot of the noughties business cases with a pinch of salt. They were very optimistic about the costs and assumptions.

Arthington is in the middle of plain line and there won’t be any existing interlocking to utilise to build into it. As far as I am aware, it’s panel operation. It won’t be a “£2.2m two weekend job”.

Or £60M

 

[Bald Rick]

In 2005 a business case was costed and proved for Ripon-Harrogate at £38M for a long siding operated with one engine in steam or £46M with a dynamic loop and full signalling for 2tph.

How much was allowed for in the estimate for obtaining primary consent to build and operate the line?

 

[deltic08]

How much was allowed for in the estimate for obtaining primary consent to build and operate the line?

How much was allowed for in the estimate for obtaining primary consent to build and operate the line?

You tell me. We didn't get that far as NYCC chose not to progress any further. They were and probably still are a tarmac county and not interested in railways.

It doesn’t really matter what either of us think on the short spur to Arthington. The suggestion is not on any official radar and as mentioned by other posters, it’s not the best axis of approach to Otley.

I take a lot of the noughties business cases with a pinch of salt. They were very optimistic about the costs and assumptions.

Arthington is in the middle of plain line and there won’t be any existing interlocking to utilise to build into it. As far as I am aware, it’s panel operation. It won’t be a “£2.2m two weekend job”.

Just been looking at the costs of upgrading the line to Okehampton in 2021, not that long ago.
11 miles a track relayed using 29,000 tons of ballast and repairs to 21 structures I assume are bridges. Total cost £40M.
Relaying less than a mile of track from Arthington to Pool without any bridges or structures to repair as there are none should be no more than £3.5M, 3 slow speed switches £2M, signalling £2M, a basic 3-car single platform jigsaw station £5M and 40 space car park and access road off the A658 £2M all estimated from actual figures from work completed in the last two years. Incidentals maybe £5M. Close to the £17M costed in 2018 and cheap enough to construct just experimentally to see if it will work.
How can you estimate less than a mile of track relaying and no structures to repair costing anywhere near £60M.
Regard yourself as one of the regular pessimists on this forum.

WYPTE wanted a 4 tph service between Leeds and Horsforth with 2 tph terminating at Horsforth and 2 tph continuing to Harrogate/York.. That is why the siding at Horsforth was upgraded and fully signalled for regular turnback when the line was resignalled in 2013. Just extend 2.5 miles to Pool and turnround there. Pool is still in West Yorkshire---just.
The east side of Otley is well populated to support 2 tph from Pool between the morning and evening peeks especially as Leeds CC plans to restrict the use of all cars, including electric cars, within 5 miles of the city centre by 2030.
Pool would be a better P&R station than Harrogate for residents of Ripon and Nidderdale as the car parks at Pannal and Weeton are small and regularly full each day and cannot be extended.

Edit. Just measured the length of the proposed branch to Pool on an Ordnance Survey map. It is 700yards from the Harrogate line to the bridge under the A658 and nowhere near a mile long as I thought. It could be 200 yards shorter by building the access road longer making the track only 0.33 miles long. £60M? I can't see it and neither could the Leeds based consultants who looked into it in 2018.
Pool would be the nearest railhead for Bramhope only a mile away. Bramhope has over 4,500 inhabitants and Pool nearly 3,000 in the 2021 census.

 

[billio]

It very much does matter to the population of Ripon. We were cheated out of our railway. Had Beeching done his job properly instead of being incompetent, then Ripon would still be rail connected and Harrogate, the largest town in North Yorkshire, would be on a through route to the North and not on a branch line.
As a Ripon-Leeds daily commuter in the late 1960s, closure directly impacted on my life. My commute now included motoring to Harrogate on a poor A road, finding a parking space at an already full car park instead of cycling to Ripon station, negotiating very busy Harrogate roads as the station was in central Harrogate. This increased my 45 minute commute to 65 minutes. Progress

A study was undertaken in 2004 to determine if the Ripon line should go via Thirsk or Northallerton. It concluded that Thirsk station is too far from the town for local journeys from Ripon and Harrogate, it was cheaper to join the two track ECML at Northallerton than four track at Thirsk and that the majority of passengers from Ripon and Harrogate wanted the faster route direct to Northallerton so your view is incorrect.

£35M for less than a mile of single track railway? £10M for three switches and three signals? £15M for a single wooden jigsaw type platform?
Two switches, two signals and a relayed siding were installed in Harrogate to accommodating terminating London trains in November 2021 costing £2M.
A single jigsaw platform with lighting to accommodate 3 coaches is less than £2M. The platforms built at Workington North as an emergency measure were only in the hundreds of thousands.

The amount of new railway needed to go via Thirsk is less than that direct to Northallerton, there are fewer buildings in the way, open fields make it look easier to cross the A1M and likewise to connect with the ECML It brings the possibility of additional of passengers travelling as this line would connect four significant towns in North Yorkshire. A fact more important as North Yorkshire is now a unitary authority based in Northallerton.

With the possibility of higher speed running on the ECML from Thirsk, I doubt whether the difference in journey times would deter passengers from Ripon and Harrogate.

How you would get the line through Ripon is something else.

 

[Bald Rick]

You tell me. We didn't get that far

Does that mean your estimate didn‘t include any allowance for the consents processes? It’s a fundamental component of the estimate for a new railway.

For a job like Harrogate to Ripon I would expect the Consents process to cost in the region of £20m.

Just been looking at the costs of upgrading the line to Okehampton in 2021, not that long ago.

11 miles a track relayed using 29,000 tons of ballast and repairs to 21 structures I assume are bridges. Total cost £40M.

Relaying track is rather more simple when there is track already in situ, and it has been maintained, along with what is underneath it. What is the state of the ground conditions and drainage on this Pool branch? Best to allow a reasonable sum to get what goes under the ballast into decent condition.

3 slow speed switches £2M, signalling £2M

Slow speed switches start at around £1m each.

Signalling a new junction with a new interlocking and screenchanges at Harrogate, you‘re looking at £5m minimum. Plus the costs of enabling power supplies, radio coverage, etc.

40 space car park and access road off the A658

40 spaces seems rather unambitious for a park and ride station for Otley. That wouldn’t even fill a bus.


Don‘t forget to allow for the costs of obtaining the consents necessary to build and operate the railway, buying the land it needs (including for construction itself), and compensating the owners of nearby property who will see the value of their properties fall.

 

[billio]

I would like to suggest opening the through line from Rochdale to Bolton and enhancing the line from Wigan to Liverpool so that through services can run from West Yorkshire to Liverpool and Southport. These services would pass through several major towns in North Manchester and relieve pressure on Manchester Victoria.

To give you an idea of how useful this would be, an example. Last time I looked there were 17 trains from Liverpool to Drax every day. The route is approximately 40 miles shorter than the existing route. A saving of 34 times 40 miles a day, about 1340, or for a six day working week 8610, 424320 miles a year.

 

[Bald Rick]

To give you an idea of how useful this would be, an example. Last time I looked there were 17 trains from Liverpool to Drax every day.

6 paths a day each way. They don’t run every day, depending on where the biomass ships have docked and on the burn level at the powerstation. Only 1 has run today, for example, and not much over the summer at all.

 

[InkyScrolls]

6 paths a day each way. They don’t run every day, depending on where the biomass ships have docked and on the burn level at the powerstation. Only 1 has run today, for example, and not much over the summer at all.

Oi! Don't let facts get in the way!

 

[The Planner]

I would like to suggest opening the through line from Rochdale to Bolton and enhancing the line from Wigan to Liverpool so that through services can run from West Yorkshire to Liverpool and Southport. These services would pass through several major towns in North Manchester and relieve pressure on Manchester Victoria.

To give you an idea of how useful this would be, an example. Last time I looked there were 17 trains from Liverpool to Drax every day. The route is approximately 40 miles shorter than the existing route. A saving of 34 times 40 miles a day, about 1340, or for a six day working week 8610, 424320 miles a year.

What would you upgrade between Wigan and Liverpool? The line through St Helens isnt struggling for capacity.

 

[Bevan Price]

Some good conspiracy theory stuff here but I'll take it with a pinch of salt.

In the 1963 Reshaping Plan it is made abundantly clear from the Foreword to the Summary, and on the maps, that any withdrawals/closures mentioned were proposals (not a 'decision' in sight). It was, of course, for the Minister of Transport to take the decision, after considering a report from the relevant Transport Users' Consultative Committee. It was Barbara Castle who made the decision about Ripon.

Barbara Castle was in no mood to retain any track or route on the off-chance that it might be needed. In early 1967 she had agreed to let the track on disused Morfa Mawddach-Ruabon (closed under her predecessor Tom Fraser) line be lifted (apart from retaining freight facilities from Ruabon to Llangollen). The Transport Act 1968 introduced the concept of Surplus Track Capacity [hasty elimination thereof] Grants, which gave a new spur to closures, singling and de-quadrification over the next five years.

Despite looking back through Railway Magazine and Modern Railways of the time I haven't been able to find any reports of the alleged 'agreement' about re-opening. When was this?

Barbara Castle and the Wilson Government had little choice in the matter. The Labour government was in hack to the "money industry", who were insisting on big cuts in public spending - and continuing with the Marples/Beeching cuts was seen as an unavoidable consequence.

 

[HSTEd]

6 paths a day each way. They don’t run every day, depending on where the biomass ships have docked and on the burn level at the powerstation. Only 1 has run today, for example, and not much over the summer at all.

I'd suggest that it'd be way cheaper to either subsidise a move of biomass imports to an east coast port or even tranship the biomass onto a coaster that can run directly to the coaling stage at Drax than to open new railway infrastructure.

Or, given that Drax is hurtling towards end of life thanks to the lousy environmental properties of biomass, just give up on the whole operation.

 

[Bald Rick]

Or, given that Drax is hurtling towards end of life thanks to the lousy environmental properties of biomass, just give up on the whole operation.

Well, quite. I think thats fairly likely.

 

[deltic08]

The amount of new railway needed to go via Thirsk is less than that direct to Northallerton, there are fewer buildings in the way, open fields make it look easier to cross the A1M and likewise to connect with the ECML It brings the possibility of additional of passengers travelling as this line would connect four significant towns in North Yorkshire. A fact more important as North Yorkshire is now a unitary authority based in Northallerton.

With the possibility of higher speed running on the ECML from Thirsk, I doubt whether the difference in journey times would deter passengers from Ripon and Harrogate.

How you would get the line through Ripon is something else.

Please read my post again and absorb the reasons I gave for not going via Thirsk.
Last time I looked there were no buildings on the Melmerby-Northallerton proposed route bypassing the 3 buildings built on the former trackbed at Pickhill village apart from the new A1 that did not bridge the trackbed. This is also true for Melmerby-Thirsk trackbed. A substantial new bridge would be required over the river Swale replacing the one demolished in 1959 and a flyover from the Up slow line at Thirsk over four tracks onto the Melmerby/Ripon trackbed.
It is not easier to connect with the 4 track ECML at Thirsk than the 2 track ECML at Northallerton.

The river Swale metal bow bridge on the Northallerton route is still extant but has not been maintained since 1967 and would need replacing especially as the alignment will be straighter to eliminate a 40mph curve onto the bridge.

Going via Thirsk is no quicker as it is longer in distance, not much but longer. The slow lines on the ECML north of Thirsk are 80mph. 90mph is possible on the route Ripon-Northallerton. Speed is severely restricted by the curve at former Melmerby Jnc for Thirsk and right angle curve onto the ECML at Thirsk.

We have route protection from Harrogate to Northallerton given by Harrogate and Hambleton councils but this didn't stop planning permission for a development on former Ripon station site. Thankfully the goods yard is still clear and would need an offline deviation about the width of the up platform.
Where Ripon bypass has used the old formation, a viaduct would be built over Boroughbridge Road, the canal and River Skell with piers into the shoulder of the bypass embankment for about 300 yards as the railway at this point was 3 tracks wide. This viaduct was costed at £7M in 2005.

Does that mean your estimate didn‘t include any allowance for the consents processes? It’s a fundamental component of the estimate for a new railway.

For a job like Harrogate to Ripon I would expect the Consents process to cost in the region of £20m.

Arup did the study and I do not remember any mention of consent processes and a cost for this.
What is your estimate for the Pool in Wharfedale branch. What does Consent entail?

Relaying track is rather more simple when there is track already in situ, and it has been maintained, along with what is underneath it. What is the state of the ground conditions and drainage on this Pool branch? Best to allow a reasonable sum to get what goes under the ballast into decent condition.

I would think that drainage is non existant after nearly 60 years but there will me some kind of blocked drainage present. It is probably wettish ground as the field it crosses has always been grazed with no crops assuming it is too wet to plough.
On a branchline that short with 20mph turnouts, I can't see much formation base work would be needed as speed wouldn't be much above 30mph. Drainage was renewed on the Okehampton line and geomembrane fitted under the ballast still for approximately £3.5M per mile.

Slow speed switches start at around £1m each.

Signalling a new junction with a new interlocking and screenchanges at Harrogate, you‘re looking at £5m minimum. Plus the costs of enabling power supplies, radio coverage, etc.

I take your point but 3 switches and all the signalling added to the existing Harrogate panel was only £2.2M

40 spaces seems rather unambitious for a park and ride station for Otley. That wouldn’t even fill a bus.


Don‘t forget to allow for the costs of obtaining the consents necessary to build and operate the railway, buying the land it needs (including for construction itself), and compensating the owners of nearby property who will see the value of their properties fall.

I thought 40 spaces and then add to if necessary for the eastern side of Otley. I presumed the western side would use Menston. There is plenty of land available.

The only property anywhere near is the station masters house in the former triangle of junctions at Arthington and that is next to the Harrogate line with up to 4 tph each way in the peaks.
It was busy in its day as freight trains from Skipton and points west for the North were routed through Embsay, Ilkley, Otley, Arthington to Starbeck, avoiding Harrogate, and then Ripon to Northallerton for Teeside or Tyneside avoiding busy Leeds and York.
Up until the late 1950s there was a York-Blackpool-York holiday train on Saturdays that went this way via Colne and Skipton to Harrogate then York. If only.

 

[daodao]

@Yankee54

You are living in dreamland and nostalgia for the days before Beeching.

There is no perceivable viable business case and thus no prospect whatsoever of the re-opening of the following lines:

• Ripon to Northallerton/Thirsk
• Any part of the former line via Otley
• Ilkley-Skipton
• Skipton-Colne

There might be a case (albeit weak) for re-opening Ripon-Harrogate as a single line, with some sort of passing loop, as an extended Leeds commuter line, but any new Ripon station would probably need to be on its southern outskirts. It satisfies some of the criteria for rail re-openings previously proposed on this forum by @Altnabreac. However, affluent North Yorkshire and the northern fringes of Leeds don't merit rail re-openings on the grounds of "levelling up". Ripon is a city by name only and is actually quite a small town, with a population of under 20,000.

 

[billio]

Oi! Don't let facts get in the way!

With respect to the number of trains, I was just using information provided by Drax which could well be out of date.