Don't TfL still sell paper travelcards/tickets? I thought you could buy one with cash at most stations.
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
What happened to upgrading the Oyster system to support more zones?
- Thread starter Railguy1
- Start date
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
You can, I can't imagine they sell many nowadays though with the ubiquity of contactless payments. I think it's also slightly more expensive than contactless, to encourage people to use Oyster or contactless.
Of course, plenty of people have orange National Rail tickets that include TfL zones/Underground transfer, so there will still have to be a place for paper tickets even once this contactless extension is fully rolled out.
Last edited:
Peter Sarf
Established Member
You used to be able to buy paper travelcards at Newsagents. Not much use if you need a bus to get to the station before being able to buy one. Even less use if you only wanted to use a bus anyway !.
I believe the plan is to phase those out, in order to save a significant amount of maintenance costs.
Peter Sarf
Established Member
To me that (phasing out of paper ticket readers in London) would indicate that the Oyster card needs to continue to be available for use otherwise we are talking about progress to far/fast.
Class15
Established Member
Really? I use an Oyster card and I don’t find it outdated!
The current technology is outdated, but that doesn't mean the concept / user interface is outdated.
It makes sense to update Oyster technology to an account based system (i.e. the gatelines communicate to the back office rather than the card itself), and for a multitude of reasons (Photocards, Railcards, those without bank accounts/cards) there needs to be something that doesn't solely rely on bank cards or phone apps.
Phasing out paper National Rail Travelcards would be tricky. I suppose it's possible that within the ~NSE area you can mandate that all Season Tickets and day tickets with Travelcard addons would be issued on new generation Oyster or Oyster-compatible cards. Unless the industry actually implements the mooted policy change of completely decoupling Travelcards from (outboundary) National Rail fares altogether, which to me would be a retrograde step. The National Rail + Travelcard combination is one of those aspects of integrated transport this country should be proud of. Technology should serve the desired underlying product, not the other way round.
Are there still plans to abolish the Travelcard destination for National Rail fares? From memory this was mooted (proposed) when the then Conservative government and Sadiq Kahn didn't 'get on' - has there been any clarifications/updates since the General Election?
It makes sense to update Oyster technology to an account based system (i.e. the gatelines communicate to the back office rather than the card itself), and for a multitude of reasons (Photocards, Railcards, those without bank accounts/cards) there needs to be something that doesn't solely rely on bank cards or phone apps.
Phasing out paper National Rail Travelcards would be tricky. I suppose it's possible that within the ~NSE area you can mandate that all Season Tickets and day tickets with Travelcard addons would be issued on new generation Oyster or Oyster-compatible cards. Unless the industry actually implements the mooted policy change of completely decoupling Travelcards from (outboundary) National Rail fares altogether, which to me would be a retrograde step. The National Rail + Travelcard combination is one of those aspects of integrated transport this country should be proud of. Technology should serve the desired underlying product, not the other way round.
Are there still plans to abolish the Travelcard destination for National Rail fares? From memory this was mooted (proposed) when the then Conservative government and Sadiq Kahn didn't 'get on' - has there been any clarifications/updates since the General Election?
Peter Sarf
Established Member
I agree it would be very difficult if someone usually buying a dual purpose ticket (outboundary travel card) ended up needing two items.
Would they be issued with a return to the boundary and then an Oystercard Mk2 for the the rest of the journey. How would validators in London cope with a card that had not been touched in ?.
Who would be expected to pay for the Oystercard equivalent piece of plastic. Perhaps a single use Oyster Mk2 card ?.
As for mobile apps - please NO. The single biggest cause of delay at the pay on entry to buses is in my experience people having problems with their mobile OR just not being ready and the rest of the queue being stuck behind them. Even get log jams at station barriers caused by people not ready (and its usually a mobile). I always refer to that well known acronym - KISS (keep it simple stupid).
So if the Oyster Mk2 has to liaise with a central server I just think - cumbersome.
Withdrawal of paper travelcards was averted by an increase in the price, and changes to the revenue allocation in favour of TfL, which seemed a very low price to pay for their retention given how much TfL could have stood to gain if they had actually been withdrawn.
Ah that's good to know, thanks for the info.
They can be problematic ... Not had much experience myself but had a few cases of passenger in front having their ticket rejected by the barrier.
Id say it depends on the gate type, the pneumatic and first generation of electronic gates seem to take these largely with no problem, the later second generation of electronic gates which is everything installed since (IIRC) 2004, and including all Wide aisle gates, are a lot more tricky because they require the customer to force the ticket in before it is picked up by the rollers.
ThisIsSurbiton
Member
- Joined
- 16 Aug 2017
- Messages
- 365
In my experience, Google Pay (etc.) is as fast as an Oyster card and quicker than a bank card - both need power from the gate and time to react while the phone needs none of that. Customer faff, on the other hand...
rmHawk765
Member
The problems you can sometimes get with Google Pay etc are usually not specific to gatelines, and actually it's rarely something that wouldn't happen with a regular bank card. Oyster is obviously the quickest and most reliable as the whole system is internal and there is no faffing about with external services.
signed
Established Member
Google Pay is specific in which you usually don't open the app and just tap a unlocked phone, so it needs a few seconds to open the app and tap. I am sure there is a locked mode as well, but I never used it. Both Apple and Samsung require you to initialize the app which makes the tap instant
Samsung Pay takes as long as Osyter last time I used it, it was even faster from feel than my SE The Key smartcard.
And even with Apple, phone turned off (it keeps a small reserve when you are out of battery to make that work)
Samsung Pay takes as long as Osyter last time I used it, it was even faster from feel than my SE The Key smartcard.
The worst thing is that I doubt most people know that both Apple and Samsung have Transit modes that allow tapping fully locked and screen turned off.
And even with Apple, phone turned off (it keeps a small reserve when you are out of battery to make that work)
Not quite sure what you are saying here, but with Google Pay you don't need to open an app, just wake your phone, which is usually a fingerprint or a facial recognition. It doesn't need anything open.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
This depends on whether the facial recognition meets banking standards. I had a Oneplus phone where that would unlock the phone but where the PIN was required for payment. More needs to be made of transit mode, though, many don't need to be unlocking at all.
Personally I'd like the option to associate my Bus and Tram Photocard to a bank card, but I can understand why there are others who'd rather use Oyster instead.
As for tapping on gatelines and bus readers, the difference between the methods is minimal. Even with Apple Pay/Google Pay, most passengers have figured out where to position their handset on the readers.
As for tapping on gatelines and bus readers, the difference between the methods is minimal. Even with Apple Pay/Google Pay, most passengers have figured out where to position their handset on the readers.
rmHawk765
Member
Yes, this is exactly what I said earlier. Photocards will need to stay, there's not really a better solution.
The next Revenue Collection Contract (labelled Proteus) will include the creation of a brand-new, account-based Oyster system (in a similar vein to contactless PAYG) that replaces the existing Oyster system initiated under the 1998 Prestige contract. The awarding of Proteus is currently scheduled for late August and the contract would go live following a transition period of 1-2 years; beyond that it will take a few more years to design / install / test the new system and otherwise ready it for general use. Basically its launch is at least 5 years out.
Project Proteus: New features in TfL revenue collection tender
I found some of the new features mentioned in the latest TfL revenue collection tender interesting: During the life of the Proteus Contract, we anticipate that there will be a number of changes, the key planned changes expected to be delivered during the Proteus Contract term include: • Hina...www.railforums.co.uk
If it is really 5 years away, not something to worry about just yet, but does this mean the balance will no longer be stored on the card?
I believe the NR TVMs which allow Oyster top ups do not have a live connection to TfL's database, so top ups via them may no longer work / no longer be instantly usable? How about the Oyster systems in convenience stores?
rmHawk765
Member
My experience with topping up Oysters at NR machines is that they do work instantly, i.e you can tap in straight after. However they are not aware that the balance has been updated until you tap in, i.e if you tap it on the machine after, it will display the old balance.
You don't require a connection to any sort of database to perform a topup in person, the balance is stored on the card and transmitted to the card by the machine. This is why you have to touch your card on the machine a second time, after payment has been made.
If so, I am surprised that such a TVM has not yet been illicitly obtained, and dissected by hackers to extract the encryption key. The same thing happened to the DVD format's AACS encryption key in 2005.
It already has, in 2008, (without stealing a TVM!).
Oyster cards cloned
A group of scientists from Radbound University in the Netherlands has discovered that Oyster cards can be cloned by connecting a Mifare card reader to a computer. After successfully cloning the card, they travelled around the London uynderground using the cloned card in order to demonstrate...
www.railforums.co.uk
rmHawk765
Member
Yes, storing data on the card is indeed an obviously flawed idea for many reasons including security. The backend doesn't actually know what the balance is supposed to be at all times. You could theoretically modify the balance if you managed to decrypt the data. However back in the 2000s storing so much data on servers wasn't really an option so it is what it is.
Last edited:
I am aware of this instance, but the MiFare Classic vulnerability did not involve having access to the encryption key. Cloning is a different exploit than balance alteration.