What happens if last train of the day is cancelled

[09065]

Which I'm sure, as (I believe) a member of station staff, he's fully aware of.

But if you're standing at an unstaffed station, in the cold/dark/rain, with no other means of contacting 'the railway' and, 45 minutes after it was due, the last train hasn't shown up and there's no other information...

You still don't go telling passengers to use STP's and "Lineside" Phones or you get lots of people knowing they are there for all the wrong reasons; especially if that passenger turns out to be a disgruntled commuter who then tells all their commuter friends and the signaller get a barrage of calls every time a train is two minutes late.

If a TOC can not take responsibility for it's own customers, it is not their staffs right to fob it off onto a signaller who might actually be dealing with a massive problem.

Or is that not commonsense?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And yet I would still say that is unacceptable from FGW / the bus drivers.
The vast majority of football fans are not violent, and I am willing to bet that a hell of a lot of those who were left stranded at GCR did nothing at all wrong.
If I was left stranded at a station for no reason other than being a football fan, then I would not be happy to say the least.

Bus Drivers can refuse reasonable right to travel. Can you imagine if they were forced to take them and a rowdy fan caused an accident with a bus full of dead?

 

[PR1Berske]

Which I'm sure, as (I believe) a member of station staff, he's fully aware of.

But if you're standing at an unstaffed station, in the cold/dark/rain, with no other means of contacting 'the railway' and, 45 minutes after it was due, the last train hasn't shown up and there's no other information...

I agree. "Process" is one thing, but safety is quite another.

 

[yorkie]

The passengers were sorted out into "ordinary" and "fans" by police at Gcr...

If I was left stranded at a station for no reason other than being a football fan, then I would not be happy to say the least.

In my experience, it's not simply a question of "is this a football fan?" when something like that is done, it's whether or not they are part of a rowdy group. Rowdy groups can consist of people going to York races or people from dumps in Teeside who let themselves loose into the city of York on a Saturday evening, not just football fans.

I've been on my way back from a football match and, along with others, been asked to move into 1st class as a group of scumbags heading towards Grimsby were being escorted onto the train at Doncaster and they wanted "normal" people in one part of the train.

I've also been on trains approaching York where the Guard (a member of this forum) has said that anyone continuing to York could go into 1st class which was being kept for normal passengers, as some rowdy passengers were boarding at York.

If you are behaving yourself and not associating yourself with an unruly group, you should be categorised into the "ordinary" group

 

[Flamingo]

And yet I would still say that is unacceptable from FGW / the bus drivers.
The vast majority of football fans are not violent, and I am willing to bet that a hell of a lot of those who were left stranded at GCR did nothing at all wrong.
If I was left stranded at a station for no reason other than being a football fan, then I would not be happy to say the least.

Read it again more carefully. It was not because they were fans, it was because of their behaviour. If they had been behaving in a civilised manner, the bus drivers would not have had a problem. Once the lesson got home to them four or five hours later, they settled down, and the drivers agreed to transport them. If they (or a significant number of them) had been behaving themselves in the first place, the problem would not have arisen at all, and the train would have run.

 

[enjoy_trains]

I often use the Birmingham - Wolverhampton local station stopper train and at NS it is usually Platform 4C or B but can change. From Wolverhampton it is always platform 5 but London Midland recently made changes to their timetables and the last train of the day was no longer on the usual platform because it was coming from Liverpool I think but I didn't know this as LM didn't advertise it. Although I did think it was odd that the information board didn't display the train times. So anyway I got there in plenty of time for the 2301 last train to Tipton and it wasn't until about 15 mins after the advertised time that I realised so I went to explain and they gave me a taxi home along with another confused passenger. I was soooo relieved but learnt my lesson...

 

[Beveridges]

Depends on the circumstances...Network Rail make sure the relevant bodies are aware of planned Engineering Work.

No engineering work involved, this was a normal case of TOC's just running trains to the timetable and putting on very little extra capacity leaving tens of thousands stranded during big events.

It must have been possible to hire in a few 13-coach Loco Hauled to provide the capacity required? But no chance will they bother.

Staff getting loads of abuse; verbal and physical assaults break out on rail staff on late/night shift due to problems caused by higher managers who were safe at home in bed at the time the problems they caused broke out.

Was that the night that they invaded the track (causing the station to be closed for a time) and broke several train windows (causing services to be cancelled)?

Disorder broke out due to frustration about how they were stranded and unable to get home. You'd expect that from a minority when there were 10's of thousands stuck there all night and some of the next morning.

Capacity will always stifle Britain's railways. There's no "give" in the system, you either accept the timetable and its restrictions or you're stuffed.

TPE think running the normal timetable but with 2x 185 on services instead of the usual 1 will be enough to get nearly a hundred thousand out of the station.

 

[Tomnick]

Can you possibly have just recommended a passenger to go to a lineside telephone and talk to the signaller? Are you really that stupid considering that many areas are 3rd Rail, many areas still have non-passenger trains running and Lineside/SPT Telephones are not there for the whim of disgruntled passengers.

I would expect better from someone on a railway forum.

I think we've already got past the fact that it's entirely possible to find lineside phones (or SPTs, for that matter!) on the platform, accessible to the public. Indeed, I think some lineside phones on the Settle & Carlisle line are labelled as phones available for punters to use to obtain train running information from the Signalman. Anyway, moving on from that: I'd certainly have some sympathy with the intending passenger, facing the prospect of a long night stranded on a very cold isolated platform, who uses such a phone to contact the Signalman. I'd agree that it's not so reasonable, unless the phone is intended and labelled for the purpose, for every man and his dog to start ringing a potentially busy Signalman every time a train's more than a couple of minutes late...but that's not really what's being talked about!

 

[transportphoto]

SPTs on the platform may well be not for passenger use, but they are not always labelled 'not for passenger use' so if a passenger found a phone when they were stranded late at night, knowing that this may just get them the help they need, why shouldn't they use it?

TP

 

[DelayRepay]

If (like me) you have a capped contract you would be unable to call BTP (0800) or 101 with its flat rate so would that make it acceptable to call 999 even though it is not a real emergency but is the only way you have to get in touch with someone.

I don't think it is - sorry. 999 is for emergencies where there is a danger to life or limb, or a crime is being committed. I do think that if you're going to go out late at night, relying on the last train to get you home it is prudent to have some cash (even coins for a payphone) in case you get stuck. Would you consider calling 999 if your bus didn't turn up, or if a booked taxi didn't arrive?

 

[Tomnick]

SPTs on the platform may well be not for passenger use, but they are not always labelled 'not for passenger use' so if a passenger found a phone when they were stranded late at night, knowing that this may just get them the help they need, why shouldn't they use it?

TP

Indeed, it might help to get them out of a potentially rather dicey situation (I wouldn't fancy someone's chances stranded on a remote platform on a really cold night with little shelter and no help nearby if they weren't well prepared for it!), so I think they'd be justified in doing so if the situation demanded it!

 

[AlexS]

Can you possibly have just recommended a passenger to go to a lineside telephone and talk to the signaller? Are you really that stupid considering that many areas are 3rd Rail, many areas still have non-passenger trains running and Lineside/SPT Telephones are not there for the whim of disgruntled passengers.

I would expect better from someone on a railway forum.

No, you ignorant tool. I am referring to a 'lineside telephone', as in a telephone that will connect you to the signaller that is not associated with a signal and is therefore not a 'Signal Post Telephone'. Commonly found at foot crossings, station platforms, and other locations around the network, generally marked with the phrase 'not for 999 calls' and a telephone symbol or a cross on top of it, as opposed to the diagonal lines for an SPT.

A lineside telephone is nothing to do with being 'on or about the line'.

If you're unfamiliar with the phrase 'lineside telephone' and what it means then I would suggest you have no place commenting.

And I'm sorry chap, but being stranded after the last train is cancelled is a very different matter to being a disgruntled commuter. The former is a fairly serious problem and any member of railway staff should recognise that and deal with the situation appropriately, however they are contacted.

Disgruntled commuters, drunks and the like are fairly capable of causing a disruption and inconvenience regardless.

The question was 'what do you do if the last train is cancelled and you have no means of resolving the situation yourself'. The answer, as it is likely to be well outside of normal customer service hours, is to alert the railway operator to your situation however possible, as sleeping on an unstaffed station is not a safe position to be in. If this means ringing the signaller off a phone on the platform, then so be it.

 

[Frothy]

I've been turned up at Durham before, booked on the penultimate EC service at 2027 down to King's Cross, to connect onto the last HS service down to Ashford, and from there onto the very last service further south at around 0100 the next morning.

When I got there, I found that the 2027 was cancelled. It emerged that the down working forming the 2127 to King's Cross had run into problems, so my train was effectively being delayed an hour, making the connection at King's Cross impossible (or at least very unlikely).

It seems TOCs will go to lengths to ensure that the last train of the day is not cancelled, even if it messes up other people's plans. Would my rights in this situation be the same as someone who had missed the last train? Should East Coast have payed for a taxi to get me home and then back the following morning?

 

[09065]

No, you ignorant tool. I am referring to a 'lineside telephone', as in a telephone that will connect you to the signaller that is not associated with a signal and is therefore not a 'Signal Post Telephone'. Commonly found at foot crossings, station platforms, and other locations around the network, generally marked with the phrase 'not for 999 calls' and a telephone symbol or a cross on top of it, as opposed to the diagonal lines for an SPT.

A lineside telephone is nothing to do with being 'on or about the line'.

If you're unfamiliar with the phrase 'lineside telephone' and what it means then I would suggest you have no place commenting.

And I'm sorry chap, but being stranded after the last train is cancelled is a very different matter to being a disgruntled commuter. The former is a fairly serious problem and any member of railway staff should recognise that and deal with the situation appropriately, however they are contacted.

Disgruntled commuters, drunks and the like are fairly capable of causing a disruption and inconvenience regardless.

The question was 'what do you do if the last train is cancelled and you have no means of resolving the situation yourself'. The answer, as it is likely to be well outside of normal customer service hours, is to alert the railway operator to your situation however possible, as sleeping on an unstaffed station is not a safe position to be in. If this means ringing the signaller off a phone on the platform, then so be it.

Awwww....

A member of platform staff who can see into the future and ONLY tell passengers who are going to become stranded at an unstaffed station in advance to use the "lineside" telephone..... and yes I know what a lineside phone is; I have used them enough times - obviously some routes have a different definition of them.

But the point still stand, if YOU tell passengers to use them when they are stranded you are obviously doing it in advance; otherwise you would be a member of staff at that station at the time and not doing your job to be fobbing them off to the signaller.

Therefore you are telling passengers to use the phones with no good reason.


You are almost as laughable as the post saying you should flag down a passing train....

 

[Tomnick]

Who said anything about platform staff, or anyone else for that matter, routinely telling passengers to use lineside phones if they become stranded? There's been no suggestion that anyone contributing to this thread has done so, other than in response to the OP's hypothetical question.

 

[ModernRailways]

Awwww....

A member of platform staff who can see into the future and ONLY tell passengers who are going to become stranded at an unstaffed station in advance to use the "lineside" telephone..... and yes I know what a lineside phone is; I have used them enough times - obviously some routes have a different definition of them.

But the point still stand, if YOU tell passengers to use them when they are stranded you are obviously doing it in advance; otherwise you would be a member of staff at that station at the time and not doing your job to be fobbing them off to the signaller.

Therefore you are telling passengers to use the phones with no good reason.


You are almost as laughable as the post saying you should flag down a passing train....

He never said he would tell passengers to use it. But if in the case of someone being stranded at a station in the middle of the night with the last train cancelled then he would.

If you were left stranded on a station in a fairly remote location with the last train gone would you rather risk a paying a 'Penalty for Improper use' (which would be probably be waived) to contact the signaller so someone knows you are there and can help you or risk spending a cold night on a cold platform in the middle of nowhere and risk catching hypothermia or something similar? Also, the signaller can check to see if your train is running and then if it isn't you would know.

And yes whilst I agree you shouldn't be using the telephone, I also agree that if at a remote station and it's your only way to contact someone - other than maybe the police on 999/101 - then it is perfectly acceptable to do so.

Yes the signaller may have something important like clearing a delay, but then again shouldn't human life be more important?

They should never be used though unless for something like the last train showing up after 30 minutes or so of waiting.

I know an ex-signalman for the Newcastle area and he say's he's had one call from a passenger at Manors once and all he did was say 'Your train isn't running, I'll contact Arriva.' That was pretty much the call, and like he said to me he would rather someone contacted them on that rather than find out the next day that someone's train didn't turn up and so they got raped/killed/assaulted (yes those are extremes but it is true). Apparently, the person ended up being given a taxi to Newcastle station then had a hotel booked by GNER for the night.

 

[09065]

This member of platform staff did, on a public forum, which has been quoted by national media (so it is clear that they peruse what you all say)

If that's not possible for some reason, then if there's a signal post or lineside telephone on the platform call the signaller who can pass a message on to the TOC that they have a passenger stranded.

If he is telling all and sundry on a big public facing forum that is easily searched, what for god is he telling the passengers?


(also remember that social media and IT policies that your TOC or industry partner might have apply to forums as well - the forums discussion on Twitter being the prime example)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes the signaller may have something important like clearing a delay, but then again shouldn't human life be more important?

and where is the risk to human life? If a passenger is stranded on a cold night you would hope they would have been intelligent enough to have started the journey with the ability to keep warm anyway......

 

[Tomnick]

This member of platform staff did, on a public forum, which has been quoted by national media (so it is clear that they peruse what you all say)
...
If he is telling all and sundry on a big public facing forum that is easily searched, what for god is he telling the passengers?

I'm not sure that a member of platform staff at a busy station in the middle of a fairly large and busy city would ever find themselves giving advice to a passenger stranded, or likely to be stranded, in the middle of nowhere. I know that we've all got to be careful what we put on t'Internet, but in this case I think anyone finding themselves truly stranded on a platform with just a lineside phone for company would probably use it anyway (to contact "the Railway") rather than using their non-existant mobile phone to look here first!

and where is the risk to human life? If a passenger is stranded on a cold night you would hope they would have been intelligent enough to have started the journey with the ability to keep warm anyway......

Intelligent? Sounds optimistic to me!

 

[michael769]

and where is the risk to human life? If a passenger is stranded on a cold night you would hope they would have been intelligent enough to have started the journey with the ability to keep warm anyway......

In very cold (below zero) conditions exposure can set in very quickly and death through hypothermia can happen in a couple of hours. Conditions we can easily cope with when moving about can quickly become lethal when we are not moving.

Yes an intelligent person could be expected to wear clothes suitable for travelling in such conditions, but clothing suitable for travelling is unlikely to be suitable for sleeping in an open platform at -5c, and I do not see how you could reasonably expect someone travelling on public transport to expect to need to do so. One must also remember that not all rail passengers are healthy adults. A disabled pensioner could easily be in serious danger even in relatively mild conditions.

In certain conditions someone stranded at a remote station in midwinter could well be in real danger and a call to the emergency services would be appropriate. If you think i am being alarmist - hospitals in city centers get numerous cases of hypothermia amongst otherwise healthy adults every year

On the other hand in midsummer sleeping on a station platform might not be a very pleasant experience but it is unlikely to cause any harm - a healthy adult using signal telephones or
dialing 999 in such conditions would not expect a very friendly or helpful response.

 

[AlexS]

Do you really think I actually tell passengers to go and have a fiddle with railway telephones? Of course I don't. What I am saying is if a passenger finds themselves stuck without information that there should be no recriminations and it's actually a fairly sensible thing for a passenger to do to use a telephone if there is one present and there's no sign of any assistance. If that's one that rings the TOC or a signaller, then I don't see how it matters, they deal with calls from members of the public in a variety of situations on a regular basis.

The worst that will happen is that they will say 'sorry guv, can't help you'. Go up the S&C and you'll find lineside phones labelled as such by Network Rail that ring the signaller directly for train running information as a matter of course. Before my local 'box shut back home, there was one there for that purpose, and that was only a couple of miles out from a large city in the West Midlands.

All a lineside phone says on it message wise is 'Not for 999 calls'. This is to stop the public trying to use them to call the emergency services, because they can't. If a phone has a particular issue with being used inappropriately they are generally locked. Read the group standard, you might find it enlightening.

Are you a signaller? If you are not then I would suggest you'd struggle to comment, although I would welcome comments from actual signallers on how they would handle such a scenario for my own interest. I know a few of them and they wouldn't appear to have a problem.

I am well aware of online media rules etc and also that at least one of my managers most certainly does read what I post on this forum - which is just one reason why I post things online only in good faith and do not identify myself or my employer specifically. I should also say my profile information bears no relation to reality in terms of who I am - but then my manager is well aware of that too so it doesn't really make any difference.

With that in mind I have no desire to be embroiled in a slanging match with someone who obviously has their own opinion of a matter so having said my piece, I shall step aside and leave you to hold it, sir.

 

[bunnahabhain]

This member of platform staff did, on a public forum, which has been quoted by national media (so it is clear that they peruse what you all say)

If he is telling all and sundry on a big public facing forum that is easily searched, what for god is he telling the passengers?

(also remember that social media and IT policies that your TOC or industry partner might have apply to forums as well - the forums discussion on Twitter being the prime example)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


and where is the risk to human life? If a passenger is stranded on a cold night you would hope they would have been intelligent enough to have started the journey with the ability to keep warm anyway......

What is your actual gripe, just to put it down plain and simple so that we can all understand it. Are you angry that he has pointed out legitimate telephones that are there for passengers to use for train running information? Such as those on the Settle & Carlisle line, or indeed on many remote stations such as those in Wales and Scotland, where there is no Passenger Information System at all?

At the end of the day, AlexS knows what he's on about, you don't, and I'm not sure whether you're jealous of that or just trying to cause trouble for him, and/or this forum. You've had information from platform staff and signallers telling you that this is an acceptable use of lineside telephones, but you still won't have it.

 

[Tomnick]

I would welcome comments from actual signallers on how they would handle such a scenario for my own interest. I know a few of them and they wouldn't appear to have a problem.

Easy enough - answer the call (which you'd need to do anyway!) and let them tell their story, managing workload and asking them to call back (or offering to call them back if the equipment allows) if they've picked a busy moment. Tell them you'll get back to them, pass it onto Control and wait for them to deal with it and come back from the TOC with some sort of answer! If they say "sod off, we're busy", then so be it, but I don't see the harm in trying to help if the situation allows. It'd be more distracting to have an argument with them over their use of the lineside phone - far better (for everyone) to pass the problem upwards and move on.

 

[09065]

What is your actual gripe, just to put it down plain and simple so that we can all understand it. Are you angry that he has pointed out legitimate telephones that are there for passengers to use for train running information? Such as those on the Settle & Carlisle line, or indeed on many remote stations such as those in Wales and Scotland, where there is no Passenger Information System at all?

At the end of the day, AlexS knows what he's on about, you don't, and I'm not sure whether you're jealous of that or just trying to cause trouble for him, and/or this forum. You've had information from platform staff and signallers telling you that this is an acceptable use of lineside telephones, but you still won't have it.

Gripe: A member of TOC platform staff tells customers that they can use phones which are not there to give them rail information. That is what the Help Points and Customer Services teams are for.

I also know what I am talking about, having 19 years on the railway starting in the CO grades, going through signalling (at Grades 5,7 and 8) and now working on engineering planning. So strangely enough; I might know what I am talking about as well.

I don't need to cause trouble for this forum. The minority of established members make sure that my company as well as many others in the industry know it is here and I also KNOW (as in - for a fact) that they have had to use the media and PR machine to quell news stories as a direct result of the information the press have got ON THIS FORUM.

Now - Me, stir trouble - Don't think I need to!

 

[tsr]

You are almost as laughable as the post saying you should flag down a passing train....

So if a train moving at slow speed was passing a stranded passenger at a station, perhaps at 2am the following morning after an evening of especially severe disruption, you don't think it's appropriate for that passenger to attempt to attract the driver's attention? It is extremely hard for a passenger to just "flag down" (I quote you) a passing train, granted, especially whilst behind the yellow line and not under any authority or with any equipment or experience to do so. However, I think it is reasonable for this to be attempted as a last resort, which is basically what I originally implied. I am not condoning any dangerous action.

Drivers will probably not fail to realise that there has been a major problem affecting passenger services. Therefore, if they see someone on a rural station platform in the dead of night looking pretty desperate, as they roll by at 30mph or so, they may be able to make enquiries. If they are going faster, or if they are concentrating on a signal, the controls of the train, or something else, it is fair to expect them not to take any action. The visibility of the station platform will make a difference, too, it has to be said.

I would stress that I intended this concept to be considered as the last step before a passenger "gives up for the night", so to speak.

 

[Tomnick]

Gripe: A member of TOC platform staff tells customers that they can use phones which are not there to give them rail information. That is what the Help Points and Customer Services teams are for.

If we were talking about routine train running information, then I'd agree wholeheartedly with you. The whole discussion is based around the hypothetical passenger who has, rightly or wrongly, found themselves stranded on a cold platform with no means of obtaining help or information through the normal channels.

As an aside, anyone displaying any sort of emergency stop signal to a train in an attempt to stop it to seek information would, from me at least (and I'm sure the Driver would agree!), receive rather less sympathy...

 

[tsr]

As an aside, anyone displaying any sort of emergency stop signal to a train in an attempt to stop it to seek information would, from me at least (and I'm sure the Driver would agree!), receive rather less sympathy...

For the record, I was not suggesting any formal emergency stop signal. This would be an inappropriate way to attract attention.

 

[Tomnick]

Any light waved vigorously is an emergency stop signal, and I'd imagine Drivers might interpret any meaningful attempt to 'flag them down' as the same!

 

[tsr]

Any light waved vigorously is an emergency stop signal, and I'd imagine Drivers might interpret any meaningful attempt to 'flag them down' as the same!

I was thinking of an action similar to that which one might use at a request stop in order to attract the attention of the driver. The scenario of being completely stranded without any method of communication with a TOC/NRE/NR (whether via help points, phone boxes, mobile phones or anything else) that we are discussing is reasonably likely to occur, if at all, on lines where there are request stops, anyway, so drivers of passenger trains would probably be alert to people attempting to stop the train in order to board. If any Network Rail or freight trains were on the route, the drivers would probably be aware of earlier severe disruption on said route

An "emergency stop" hand signal or the use of a light waved vigorously would be inappropriate, yes.

 

[Tomnick]

That's fair enough, as long as everyone understands that there's a fine line between making a (probably ineffective) attempt to stop a slow-moving train and causing something to come up in a heap (with the associated risk of injury or damage). Generally not recommended!

 

[tsr]

That's fair enough, as long as everyone understands that there's a fine line between making a (probably ineffective) attempt to stop a slow-moving train and causing something to come up in a heap (with the associated risk of injury or damage). Generally not recommended!

The train is highly unlikely to stop if a nearby signal is not at danger, of course, but the driver may be able to call the signaller to report that a passenger has been stranded. I have made it quite clear in my previous posts that this is only really likely if the driver is not concentrating on something else or driving at a high linespeed.

Most isolated rural stations probably do not usually host agitated-looking people attempting to request trains to stop at (say) 2am - in normal circumstances, vandals would try to stay in the shadows, drunk/disorderly persons would probably be in places with larger populations, and normal people would have tried to go home - so I think it would be deemed pretty unusual, and, after major disruption, would imply something quite badly wrong.

 

[AlexS]

One thing I would say, despite my promise to withdraw, is that on reflection I could have used better terminology but it's hard to remember you aren't necessarily speaking to people who know what you're on about on here.

Lineside phone is the rulebook term for the kind of phone I refer to. It would probably have best been described as a railway telephone on a platform, as the term 'lineside' gives thought to things that in this case, it does not actually apply to.