What happens to staff at franchise changes?

[FlyinScotsman]

When a franchise comes to an end, are those employees transferred to the new operating company? Are rules like TUPE used at all?

Or is it a case of everybody off! I have done a quick forum search, but can not spot an article. Any guidance is appreciated. Thank you.

 

[michael769]

Yes
Yes
No

Seriously though permanent staff are mostly TUPE'd to the new franchise - the new franchisee needs folks to run it's trains you see!

Temporary and contract staff are at risk depending on their contracts and the new franchisee's requirements.

For upper management - it is very much a case of lay off time (though some may be re-hired if the incomer values their experience and domain knowledge).

 

[FlyinScotsman]

Yes
Yes
No

Seriously though permanent staff are mostly TUPE'd to the new franchise - the new franchisee needs folks to run it's trains you see!

Temporary and contract staff are at risk depending on their contracts and the new franchisee's requirements.

For upper management - it is very much a case of lay off time (though some may be re-hired if the incomer values their experience and domain knowledge).

Thank you. Very concise.

 

[CatfordCat]

To be slightly less concise -

Absolutely, yes. TUPE is law not optional (at least at the moment - elements within the conservative party have talked about abolishing it, but not sure that's official party policy)

Where 'an economic entity' (in this case a rail franchise but it applies for something like a council's dustcart contract being re-tendered) is transferred then all staff are entitled to transfer to the new employer on their existing pay, terms and conditions, and length of service (for things like entitlement to redundancy pay / protection from 'unfair dismissal')

Obviously casual staff and the like are then easier to sack than those on permanent contracts (although they do have some employment rights) And staff employed through agencies and sub-contractors may be in a different position

(although conversely, if a TOC re-tendered its station cleaning contract part way through a franchise, those cleaning staff ought to have the right to TUPE to the new contractor - although it would get more complicated if those cleaners do other work as well.)

But there are plenty of railway staff out there who got TUPEd from BR to one franchise company and have been transferred again a time or two.

The old employer may (but does not have to) offer staff the chance to stay with them if it has other work (unlikely in the case of something as big as a rail franchise), the new employer can't refuse to take individuals or groups of people on, and the staff can't refuse to be transferred - if you decline to transfer, it's legally resignation not redundancy.

There is no definitive time limit in law how long such protection lasts but an awful lot of opinion bandied about on this. It also gets complicated if the new employer wants you to move to a new base.

What is not so simple is any 'central services' roles at group HQ - if Windmill Holdings plc was to lose one of its rail franchises, it may find it needed less people at group HQ but those people didn't work solely for that franchise. That might be more complicated and result in redundancies.

(The above is based on personal experience and research - I'm not a lawyer so it's not "legal advice" - if you're facing TUPE I'd suggest seeking qualified advice, and your union's probably the best place to start.)

 

[FlyinScotsman]

Thanks for the info. Not in the industry. Yet.
Just looking for knowledge for when I do.

Am I right in thinking that only passenger services are franchised?

 

[swt_passenger]

Thanks for the info. Not in the industry. Yet.
Just looking for knowledge for when I do.

Am I right in thinking that only passenger services are franchised?

Yes. Freight is all commercial - although the main players were given a bit of a head start at privatisation they were basically left to get on with life on their own...

 

[LCC106]

Yep - Catford Cat's understanding of TUPE is the same as my own. It's a long time since I studied TUPE (2008?) and I haven't been directly involved since then so I too use the disclaimer that I'm not a lawyer.

The best way I've heard TUPE explained by an employment lawyer, however, is that the new owner simply "steps in to the old owner's shoes" i.e. everything else remains the same. The best way I've heard it explained by railway employees is being given a new uniform and new name badge.

 

[CatfordCat]

Am I right in thinking that only passenger services are franchised?

Yes. Freight is all commercial - although the main players were given a bit of a head start at privatisation they were basically left to get on with life on their own...

Although...

the railway freight companies will have some sort of contract in place with each of their customers.

Those customers will occasionally review those contracts and may seek new quotes occasionally, and this could result in a customer signing a new contract with a different freight operator.

If any staff of the operator spend most or all of their working time doing work for that customer, then it's possible that TUPE might apply.

 

[GadgetMan]

What happens to staff at franchise changes?

We get issued with a interim uniform, followed by a new permanent uniform and then at some point another new uniform when suppliers have to be changed.

The envelope our wageslip arrives in changes.

New 'fresh' management with fabulous impractical ideas get transplanted in replacing the more experienced and respected old dinosaurs who don't do as they are told without sometimes questioning it.

And then it all happens again a few years later.

 

[swt_passenger]

Although...

the railway freight companies will have some sort of contract in place with each of their customers.

Those customers will occasionally review those contracts and may seek new quotes occasionally, and this could result in a customer signing a new contract with a different freight operator.

If any staff of the operator spend most or all of their working time doing work for that customer, then it's possible that TUPE might apply.

I'm sure it does apply - but I was really only confirming that the freight operators are not franchised in the way the passenger TOCs are.

 

[Ploughman]

We get issued with a interim uniform, followed by a new permanent uniform and then at some point another new uniform when suppliers have to be changed.

The envelope our wageslip arrives in changes.

New 'fresh' management with fabulous impractical ideas get transplanted in replacing the more experienced and respected old dinosaurs who don't do as they are told without sometimes questioning it.

And then it all happens again a few years later.

And the colour of the vans changes yet again.

 

[FlyinScotsman]

Great info so far.

Any ideas on Pension's. Are they run by the TOC and do they have a transfer scheme or such like?

Seems a life on the railway could, (I assume) lead to lots of little pension pots!

 

[Starmill]

We get issued with a interim uniform, followed by a new permanent uniform and then at some point another new uniform when suppliers have to be changed.

There must be a lot of uniforms rotting then...

 

[83G/84D]

There must be a lot of uniforms rotting then...

No they get sold on ebay!!

 

[Flamingo]

As I have pointed out to more than one passenger who has said "I hope you lose your franchise"
"If we do sir/madam, the only difference is I will be standing here in a different coloured jacket. Your ticket will still be invalid"

 

[CatfordCat]

Great info so far.

Any ideas on Pension's. Are they run by the TOC and do they have a transfer scheme or such like?

Seems a life on the railway could, (I assume) lead to lots of little pension pots!

Most of the big transport groups do offer a pension scheme.

Broadly speaking, a pension scheme doesn't transfer with you if you change employers under TUPE, you would however be eligible to join the new employer's pension scheme.

Normally, if you leave a pensioned job (whether that's through TUPE or whatever) you're allowed to 'freeze' your entitlement in the old employer's pension scheme, and that way, yes you would end up getting a few little pensions when you retire.

You are usually allowed to transfer the fund you've built up in an old pension scheme into your new employer's scheme, but it's not always in your best interests to do so, and this decision should be made with great care, making sure you have all the facts to hand, and possibly professional advice.

 

[Pumbaa]

As I have pointed out to more than one passenger who has said "I hope you lose your franchise"
"If we do sir/madam, the only difference is I will be standing here in a different coloured jacket. Your ticket will still be invalid"

Bwahahahaha!

 

[FlyinScotsman]

Most of the big transport groups do offer a pension scheme.

Broadly speaking, a pension scheme doesn't transfer with you if you change employers under TUPE, you would however be eligible to join the new employer's pension scheme.

Normally, if you leave a pensioned job (whether that's through TUPE or whatever) you're allowed to 'freeze' your entitlement in the old employer's pension scheme, and that way, yes you would end up getting a few little pensions when you retire.

You are usually allowed to transfer the fund you've built up in an old pension scheme into your new employer's scheme, but it's not always in your best interests to do so, and this decision should be made with great care, making sure you have all the facts to hand, and possibly professional advice.

Thank you. Something well being aware off!

 

[the sniper]

When a franchise comes to an end, are those employees transferred to the new operating company? [...] Or is it a case of everybody off!

It always amazes me when people/passengers/some new starters (!) believe this! How would this even work...?

Most of the big transport groups do offer a pension scheme.

Broadly speaking, a pension scheme doesn't transfer with you if you change employers under TUPE, you would however be eligible to join the new employer's pension scheme.

Normally, if you leave a pensioned job (whether that's through TUPE or whatever) you're allowed to 'freeze' your entitlement in the old employer's pension scheme, and that way, yes you would end up getting a few little pensions when you retire.

You are usually allowed to transfer the fund you've built up in an old pension scheme into your new employer's scheme, but it's not always in your best interests to do so, and this decision should be made with great care, making sure you have all the facts to hand, and possibly professional advice.

You're not describing the railway system though, are you? Railway staff aren't members of their franchise owners company pension scheme. We're part of the Railway Pension Scheme, which then has different sections for each different TOC, FOC and NR (I believe the BTP section is it's own scheme now).

And for FlyinScotsman's information, as it's the thing most people are most interested in, most members of (and new entrants into) the Railway Pension Scheme are on Defined Benefits, aka Final Salary, pensions.

 

[185]

There must be a lot of uniforms rotting then...

My 1999 Northern Spirit jacket is still used for gardening.



it's got this 'N' on it - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ↓↓↓↓

 

[PauloDavesi]

It is a very great shame that a new franchise holder is forced to continue employing operatives that are not selected by the new franchise holder and do not meet that companies criteria for employment, and in many cases are actually harmful to the reputation and brand image of the new operator.

the new franchise holder should be allowed to select the operatives it wishes to retain and issue new employment contracts without any restrictions that harm the delivery of a good quality service.

 

[FlyinScotsman]

You're not describing the railway system though, are you? Railway staff aren't members of their franchise owners company pension scheme. We're part of the Railway Pension Scheme, which then has different sections for each different TOC, FOC and NR (I believe the BTP section is it's own scheme now).

And for FlyinScotsman's information, as it's the thing most people are most interested in, most members of (and new entrants into) the Railway Pension Scheme are on Defined Benefits, aka Final Salary, pensions.

Thanks for the link.

 

[Flamingo]

It is a very great shame that a new franchise holder is forced to continue employing operatives that are not selected by the new franchise holder and do not meet that companies criteria for employment, and in many cases are actually harmful to the reputation and brand image of the new operator.

the new franchise holder should be allowed to select the operatives it wishes to retain and issue new employment contracts without any restrictions that harm the delivery of a good quality service.

If an employee is not reaching a standard, that is something that can and should be addressed by their existing employer using existing training or diciplinary pathways.

anything else is an excuse for wholesale dismissal or redundancy without any of the statutory protection staff are entitled to, on the whim of a "new" employer.

I know some staff who have been doing the same job, working out of the same depot, with the same locker for over 25 years but had five different employers.

One thing that helps attract and retain staff is the job security that TUPE in part provides. The impact on staff morale (and subsequent knock on to customer service) if everybody thought their job was on the line every five years or so would be incalculable.

 

[Tomnick]

It is a very great shame that a new franchise holder is forced to continue employing operatives that are not selected by the new franchise holder and do not meet that companies criteria for employment, and in many cases are actually harmful to the reputation and brand image of the new operator.

the new franchise holder should be allowed to select the operatives it wishes to retain and issue new employment contracts without any restrictions that harm the delivery of a good quality service.

Referring mainly to Drivers and Guards: quite how you expect the incoming franchise holder to recruit and train any great quantity of staff in the timescales involved, I don't know, as this process can take anything up to a year and would require significant co-operation from the outgoing franchise holder (route and traction training etc.). As Flamingo says, any specific issues can be (and are) dealt with through the disciplinary process rather than taking the rather cowardly option of waiting for a franchise change to get rid of anyone whose face doesn't fit (which might translate to someone who believes in safety above performance, and has justifiably caused some delays as a result,for example...)

I certainly think it's right that their contracts are protected too - I certainly don't fancy witnessing the general decline in standards that other industries have seen in the race to employ folk of questionable quality as cheaply as possible.

 

[MacRae13]

It is a very great shame that a new franchise holder is forced to continue employing operatives that are not selected by the new franchise holder and do not meet that companies criteria for employment, and in many cases are actually harmful to the reputation and brand image of the new operator.

the new franchise holder should be allowed to select the operatives it wishes to retain and issue new employment contracts without any restrictions that harm the delivery of a good quality service.

What a novel and brilliant concept. It really is a wonder existing TOCs haven't thought of disciplining or dismissing existing employees for the reasons you suggest.

Groan.......

 

[martybabes]

It is a very great shame that a new franchise holder is forced to continue employing operatives that are not selected by the new franchise holder and do not meet that companies criteria for employment, and in many cases are actually harmful to the reputation and brand image of the new operator.

the new franchise holder should be allowed to select the operatives it wishes to retain and issue new employment contracts without any restrictions that harm the delivery of a good quality service.

The employer/franchise holder on the receiving end of the new arrangements takes the entire workforce which is subject to the TUPE provisions whether it likes it or not. It is a very important safeguard that an employee's job is protected simply because the undertaking is being transferred from one employer to another. The new employer is perfectly entitled later to institute new policies and working methods (after suitable consultation processes), and the employee then can choose whether to remain or to leave.
IMVHO, both the employer and the employee have rights and obligations which appear to be fair, reasonable and in balance.

 

[merlodlliw]

Thanks for the info. Not in the industry. Yet.
Just looking for knowledge for when I do.

Am I right in thinking that only passenger services are franchised?

Unlike open access, if a franchise toc goes bust, your job is protected, OA is like a real everyday Company on the high street. Just to add to the thread

Bob

 

[barrykas]

Unlike open access, if a franchise toc goes bust, your job is protected, OA is like a real everyday Company on the high street. Just to add to the thread

Though with Hull Trains being part of First and Grand Central (and formerly W&S) being part of Arriva, they'll almost certainly try to find alternative jobs for staff in the event of being wound up.

Certainly a number of W&S staff are now with Chiltern, and I'd hazard a guess that some have gone to ATW and possibly London Midland.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

It is a very great shame that a new franchise holder is forced to continue employing operatives that are not selected by the new franchise holder and do not meet that companies criteria for employment, and in many cases are actually harmful to the reputation and brand image of the new operator.

the new franchise holder should be allowed to select the operatives it wishes to retain and issue new employment contracts without any restrictions that harm the delivery of a good quality service.

or perhaps the Employer should use it;s all ready existing ( and legal) capability and/or disciplinary policies to address under performance ?

 

[185]

It is a very great shame that a new franchise holder is forced to continue employing operatives that are not selected by the new franchise holder and do not meet that companies criteria for employment, and in many cases are actually harmful to the reputation and brand image of the new operator.

the new franchise holder should be allowed to select the operatives it wishes to retain and issue new employment contracts without any restrictions that harm the delivery of a good quality service.

Haha, I would have been jobless in 2004 when TrashGroup took us over.

Before the takeover, FNW staff staff who transferred to our company refered to Arriva as either "The Great Escape" or "The Escape Committee".

Stalag FNW Piccadilly had a bit of a bad reputation. The only company I know that threated disciplinary action against guards who announced a service was "terminating" in case it offended or frightened elderly people - quote Vernon Barker, their MD.