What has been the fallout - if any - on the EMR "Connect" services to Corby?

[peteb]

Given the better service from Kettering, meaning more flexibility in travel arrangements plus the fact that many regular travellers drive in from surrounding villages to both Wellingborough and Kettering (and to Harborough for that matter from places like Desborough and Rothwell), I suspect many will simply head there to park rather than put themselves through a suburban train experience from Wellingborough.

Also given that Milton Keynes is less than 1/2 hour from Wellingborough except at peak times, a drive there, off peak parking and a 35 minute train ride into Euston seems distinctly attractive to those living south of Wellingborough.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Interesting to see the differences between the MML and ECML in this regard.

The northern terminus of Thameslink trains on both routes are Bedford and Peterborough, but Peterborough is further out and comparable in distance to Kettering.

So, yeah, I see why the Nottinghams are first stop Kettering, from a distance perspective. I am sure that ECML intercity trains would be much slower if they would be first stop Sandy and all stations to Doncaster.

Just because Sandy happens to be a similar distance from the London terminus as Bedford means nothing. The significant populations (in terms of rail travel) on the MML and the ECML are totally different north of Hitchen/Stevenage and Luton respectively. (And if you live in Huntingdon as implied by your avatar, you should surely know that.)

This was reflectied historically, when, until electrification, Biggleswade/Sandy/St Neots had an almost non-existant service outside the peaks - in complete contrast to Bedford and Wellingboro'. (I suspect home-building may have changed the proportions over the years, however.)

Given electrification and 2TPH to Corby, I think it's quite understandable that planners would want Bedford and Wellingborogh passengers when heading north to change at Kettering for much of the day (and certainly during the peaks), and v v, but to have effectively no direct services for the vast majority of the day is just wrong IMO, and will naturally push people from these intermediate towns (not to mention Flitwick folks etc) into their cars.

People, or 99% of normals, simply don't like changing and all the worries and uncertainty that changing trains entails. If Chief Planner, with free tickets and expert knowledge of the services, platforms etc, is put off by three changes, getting Joe Bloggs in Harlington, or even Aunt Maud in Bedford, to go to Leicester and onwards by train is going to be simply impossible.

 

[21C101]

I think Wellingborough are huge losers from this and if I were living there I would be fuming. From a full intercity service to smelly old 3+2 seats with no refreshments, no first class and 100 mph max, but still having to pay a fare commensurate with a full intercity service, while suburban pax from St Pancras to Cricklewood have new, far more comfortable trains.

It is noticeable that few at Bedford appear to have swapped to the EMT service from Thameslink as its starting saw little difference in loading and if the EMT service is late or cancelled then little extra pax on the next Thameslink.

The good folk of Kettering & Market Harborough must be very glad that the wires didn't reach Leicester or they would have suffered the same.

Its a bit of a mess to be honest.

 

[43066]

suburban pax from St Pancras to Cricklewood have new, far more comfortable trains.

I agree with some of your post, but not this bit. The seats in the 360s are very comfortable and I’d personally rate them above those found in 700s.

 

[Envy123]

Just because Sandy happens to be a similar distance from the London terminus as Bedford means nothing. The significant populations (in terms of rail travel) on the MML and the ECML are totally different north of Hitchen/Stevenage and Luton respectively. (And if you live in Huntingdon as implied by your avatar, you should surely know that.)

This was reflectied historically, when, until electrification, Biggleswade/Sandy/St Neots had an almost non-existant service outside the peaks - in complete contrast to Bedford and Wellingboro'. (I suspect home-building may have changed the proportions over the years, however.)

I was comparing distances because Kettering and Peterborough are similar distances from London, to try to justify why the planners chose Kettering as the first stop on the Nottinghams. I know of the differing rail populations, as housing was more easily found in places like Biggleswade, St Neots and Huntingdon for commuters - as opposed to there being nothing suitable in Harlington and Flitwick at the time at least. And Kettering doesn't have an east to west interchange like Peterborough does.

The point I was trying to make, was that the outer suburban services on the MML end too close to London, in comparison to the ECML, and intercity trains had to stop at Wellingborough, Kettering and so on to provide some sort of a London service. That slows down the service to Nottingham and Sheffield. But on the other side, the ECML can have express trains to York* in addition to the stoppers because the ECML goes further than South Yorkshire, so stopping intercity trains are not so much of an issue.

I think the train planners tried to copy what the ECML has done for express services, but this completely messes things up. The uncertainty on the MML was partly what led me to move to places on the ECML - Huntingdon and then Peterborough shortly.

* - I know Doncaster has some express services from Grand Central, but I shouldn't really be comparing an open access operator with EMR.

It is noticeable that few at Bedford appear to have swapped to the EMT service from Thameslink as its starting saw little difference in loading and if the EMT service is late or cancelled then little extra pax on the next Thameslink.

When there was disruption on the ECML a few times, my mother and I drove to Bedford to take the train to London. Our final destination is Farringdon and the slower EMR service than before makes the direct train a more suitable choice. NRE implies that it can even be slower by taking EMR and changing at St Pancras. So, it depends on the final destination. If we needed to get to the West End and we needed the tube from Kings Cross St Pancras, EMR would be a better choice than Thameslink for us.

 

[jayah]

I think Wellingborough are huge losers from this and if I were living there I would be fuming. From a full intercity service to smelly old 3+2 seats with no refreshments, no first class and 100 mph max, but still having to pay a fare commensurate with a full intercity service, while suburban pax from St Pancras to Cricklewood have new, far more comfortable trains.

It is noticeable that few at Bedford appear to have swapped to the EMT service from Thameslink as its starting saw little difference in loading and if the EMT service is late or cancelled then little extra pax on the next Thameslink.

The good folk of Kettering & Market Harborough must be very glad that the wires didn't reach Leicester or they would have suffered the same.

Its a bit of a mess to be honest.

How does this work elsewhere?

Twyford to Torquay in one stop changing at Reading.

St Neots to Newcastle changing at Peterborough.

Where are the Peterboroughs and Readings on this line?

The Corby service seems like a bit of a muddle. The electrified railway ie. Thameslink doesn't end at Beford anymore, except they don't seem to have noticed. The Littlehampton trains run 90mins south of the river.

Even in these post COVID times they have 8tph south of Luton. Is there any reason they can't run an express service north of St Pancras like they do south of London?

Wellingborough feels like the Newbury or Huntingdon of the route (but with far less footfall) so the Intercity operation certainly should not pivot on it. But they do need to be stopping somewhere the EMUs do, whatever that service looks like.

A 60min Wellingborough St Pancras journey time, but continuing through the core, stopping at Beford, St Albans and the Lutons doesn't feel unreasonable.

 

[Starmill]

The Littlehampton trains run 90mins south of the river.

There are only a tiny handful of these.

 

[Watershed]

How does this work elsewhere?

Twyford to Torquay in one stop changing at Reading.

St Neots to Newcastle changing at Peterborough.

Where are the Peterboroughs and Readings on this line?

The Corby service seems like a bit of a muddle. The electrified railway ie. Thameslink doesn't end at Beford anymore, except they don't seem to have noticed. The Littlehampton trains run 90mins south of the river.

Even in these post COVID times they have 8tph south of Luton. Is there any reason they can't run an express service north of St Pancras like they do south of London?

Wellingborough feels like the Newbury or Huntingdon of the route (but with far less footfall) so the Intercity operation certainly should not pivot on it. But they do need to be stopping somewhere the EMUs do, whatever that service looks like.

A 60min Wellingborough St Pancras journey time, but continuing through the core, stopping at Beford, St Albans and the Lutons doesn't feel unreasonable.

The 'least worst' option seems to me to have extended the Bedford-Brighton services up to Corby when electrification occurred. Unfortunately, whilst I'm sure that more could be built 'for the right price', the likelihood of additional 700s being procured is effectively nil and there are insufficient spare units to do it within the existing fleet.

The EMR Connect service sits uneasy at the moment. At the very least, the necessary legal changes should be made (to the NRCoT or legal operating structure) to allow for 'EMR Connect only' fares from Corby, Kettering and Market Harborough, on a similar pence per mile basis to the Thameslink-set fares out to Bedford.

 

[A0]

Also given that Milton Keynes is less than 1/2 hour from Wellingborough except at peak times, a drive there, off peak parking and a 35 minute train ride into Euston seems distinctly attractive to those living south of Wellingborough.

You're pushing it to do it in sub 30 mins - even now on a Sunday afternoon Google Maps reckons 35 minutes.

Add in the places south - I'd say South West - of Wellingboro are primarly small villages as well so relatively few people. For places like Sharnbrook, Bedford is more likely to be used.

 

[43074]

The other is that load factors better Bedford and Corby are rubbish. Trains have become more frequent but are carrying very few people. It's more expensive to run two eight car EMUs per hour than one four / five car DMU because the staff cost is much higher and this cannot be offset by the efficiency gain from AC traction.

That was true of the Corby services before though, the bulk of the demand on the Corby services was always expected (and as it seems to have materialised) to come from Bedford/Luton/Airport to London traffic. As an example, the 1650 St Pancras to Corby from May 18 was non stop to Wellingborough, usually a 2+6 HST and never once did I experience crowding on it. North of Bedford, the Northants towns are really somewhere convenient to run an outer suburban EMU service to. That being the case "EMR Connect only" fares from Wellingborough/Kettering and Corby really should have been implemented to match the level of service (or lack of) now provided.

Given electrification and 2TPH to Corby, I think it's quite understandable that planners would want Bedford and Wellingborogh passengers when heading north to change at Kettering for much of the day (and certainly during the peaks), and v v, but to have effectively no direct services for the vast majority of the day is just wrong IMO, and will naturally push people from these intermediate towns (not to mention Flitwick folks etc) into their cars.

People, or 99% of normals, simply don't like changing and all the worries and uncertainty that changing trains entails. If Chief Planner, with free tickets and expert knowledge of the services, platforms etc, is put off by three changes, getting Joe Bloggs in Harlington, or even Aunt Maud in Bedford, to go to Leicester and onwards by train is going to be simply impossible.

I think that confirms the premise of the OP was a bit of a loaded question, but people are using the interchange at Kettering to change, probably in the ballpark of 20 or so passengers per train when I've used it. Calls at Luton Airport Parkway would address the journeys which need multiple changes at Luton Airport then Kettering then Leicester to get to points north, but the structure of the timetable wouldn't allow it without a 10 min increase in the journey time of the EMR Intercity which would call (the Nottingham to London service is 2.5 mins in front of the Bedford to Gatwick south of Harpenden so it would have to follow rather than proceed this.)

It is noticeable that few at Bedford appear to have swapped to the EMT service from Thameslink as its starting saw little difference in loading and if the EMT service is late or cancelled then little extra pax on the next Thameslink.

EMR are under pressure to strengthen some of the peak services to 12-cars which implies there has been some sort of shift from Thameslink - when you consider EMR services didn't call in the peaks south of Wellingborough (except a few at Luton Airport) pre May 21, a fair proportion of those passengers will have come from Thameslink.

 

[Starmill]

That was true of the Corby services before though, the bulk of the demand on the Corby services was always expected (and as it seems to have materialised) to come from Bedford/Luton/Airport to London traffic. As an example, the 1650 St Pancras to Corby from May 18 was non stop to Wellingborough, usually a 2+6 HST and never once did I experience crowding on it. North of Bedford, the Northants towns are really somewhere convenient to run an outer suburban EMU service to. That being the case "EMR Connect only" fares from Wellingborough/Kettering and Corby really should have been implemented to match the level of service (or lack of) now provided.

Indeed but a more frequent service costs more to run and therefore usually you expect some positive return on that, whereas in this case the worsening of journey times and withdrawal of First Class means that higher costs have bought lower growth.

Of course there is one obvious way to turn that around, which is to run an hourly four car between Bedford and Corby and run half hourly 8 / 12s between Bedford and London, but that would have even more serious stakeholder concerns.

 

[jayah]

The 'least worst' option seems to me to have extended the Bedford-Brighton services up to Corby when electrification occurred. Unfortunately, whilst I'm sure that more could be built 'for the right price', the likelihood of additional 700s being procured is effectively nil and there are insufficient spare units to do it within the existing fleet.

The EMR Connect service sits uneasy at the moment. At the very least, the necessary legal changes should be made (to the NRCoT or legal operating structure) to allow for 'EMR Connect only' fares from Corby, Kettering and Market Harborough, on a similar pence per mile basis to the Thameslink-set fares out to Bedford.

As I understand Thameslink is operating well below pre COVID timetable and don't ever expect commuting to return to those levels.

In which case there is the potential to reach Corby every 30mins with no additional rolling stock.

 

[bramling]

As I understand Thameslink is operating well below pre COVID timetable and don't ever expect commuting to return to those levels.

In which case there is the potential to reach Corby every 30mins with no additional rolling stock.

Is the Thameslink service that reduced now? Certainly on the GN side things are returning to 100% of the pre-Covid Thameslink service provision as of the new May timetable.

I know the Midland side isn’t quite back there yet (on the GN side the cuts have been borne by Great Northern branded services, leaving Thameslink intact), but this can’t leave that many 700s sitting spare now.

I’m sure there would be sufficient units to extend two of the Bedfords north (assuming the infrastructure is or can be made 12-car compliant?), though I’m not sure the already disgruntled Wellingborough users would welcome ironing boards and more stops!

 

[43066]

As I understand Thameslink is operating well below pre COVID timetable and don't ever expect commuting to return to those levels.

“Ever” is a very long time…

 

[jayah]

Is the Thameslink service that reduced now? Certainly on the GN side things are returning to 100% of the pre-Covid Thameslink service provision as of the new May timetable.

I know the Midland side isn’t back there yet (on the GN side the cuts have been borne by Great Northern branded services, leaving Thameslink intact), but this can’t leave that many 700s sitting spare now.

I’m sure there would be sufficient units to extend two of the Bedfords north (assuming the infrastructure is or can be made 12-car compliant?), though I’m not sure the already disgruntled Wellingborough users would welcome ironing boards and more stops!

The current peak service seems to be 19tph in the peak, further reduced off peak. Rather less than 24tph which was the core part of the Thameslink upgrade.

By distance Wellingborough and Huntingdon are very similar and the offer would be comparable. The season ticket fares look very close too at around £159pw.

 

[Starmill]

The current peak service seems to be 19tph in the peak, further reduced off peak. Rather less than 24tph which was the core part of the Thameslink upgrade.

By distance Wellingborough and Huntingdon are very similar and the offer would be comparable. The season ticket fares look very close too at around £159pw.

Wellingborough to London is £177.80 / week, Huntingdon to London is £149.20 / week.

 

[apinnard]

Given the better service from Kettering, meaning more flexibility in travel arrangements plus the fact that many regular travellers drive in from surrounding villages to both Wellingborough and Kettering (and to Harborough for that matter from places like Desborough and Rothwell), I suspect many will simply head there to park rather than put themselves through a suburban train experience from Wellingborough.

Also given that Milton Keynes is less than 1/2 hour from Wellingborough except at peak times, a drive there, off peak parking and a 35 minute train ride into Euston seems distinctly attractive to those living south of Wellingborough.

I do this journey regularly and cannot make MKC from Wellingborough town centre in under half an hour. Even on quiet days. The A509 isn’t a particularly fantastic road for getting anywhere quick.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

The current peak service seems to be 19tph in the peak, further reduced off peak. Rather less than 24tph which was the core part of the Thameslink upgrade.

By distance Wellingborough and Huntingdon are very similar and the offer would be comparable. The season ticket fares look very close too at around £159pw.

24tph have never ran though. Max was 22tph.

There really aren't any spare class 700's in the peaks. On the East Coast side Thameslink is now back to a full timetable in the peaks.

And on the EM side, they are pretty close to full with the only thing missing a few Bedford - East Grinstead/Littlehampton workings.

And off peak they are 14tph through the core. Plus all the 700's used on Blakckfriars - Sevenoaks and London Kings Cross - Cambridge services. They really aren't much down on pre covid at all.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 May 2022 ==

Indeed but a more frequent service costs more to run and therefore usually you expect some positive return on that, whereas in this case the worsening of journey times and withdrawal of First Class means that higher costs have bought lower growth.

Of course there is one obvious way to turn that around, which is to run an hourly four car between Bedford and Corby and run half hourly 8 / 12s between Bedford and London, but that would have even more serious stakeholder concerns.

How do we know there has been lower growth. It seems the only evidence there has been lower growth is people on the forum saying there has been, with no actual numbers to back it up?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Agreed - Thameslink (Midland) are pretty much back a "normal" timetable , and loadings in the busy hours are much akin to the what they were , especially on the all stations trains south of Elstree which are now much improved in frequency (e.g the useful Rainham semi-fasts* return to 2 tph and through to Luton vice St Albans) - off peak (for now till the financial crunch really bites)

One factor for consideration for links northbound from Luton Airport , are the grand ideas - "Future Luton" , not exactly popular as you can imagine for the residents of Harpenden etc , for massive increases in air traffic , - and whilst the airport has been going on about dedicated fast links to London , somewhere in their thinking must be ideas on connectivity north to the East Midlands etc) - probably more traffic than retired railway managers and students as discussed before .....they have , after all , invested heavily in the airport and the people mover to replace the bus !


(* the semi fasts for residents of Luton /Harpenden / St Albans etc - plus Radlett / Elstree and Mill Hill are great for quicker links to West Hampstead and beyond...)

 

[A0]

Agreed - Thameslink (Midland) are pretty much back a "normal" timetable , and loadings in the busy hours are much akin to the what they were , especially on the all stations trains south of Elstree which are now much improved in frequency (e.g the useful Rainham semi-fasts* return to 2 tph and through to Luton vice St Albans) - off peak (for now till the financial crunch really bites)

One factor for consideration for links northbound from Luton Airport , are the grand ideas - "Future Luton" , not exactly popular as you can imagine for the residents of Harpenden etc , for massive increases in air traffic , - and whilst the airport has been going on about dedicated fast links to London , somewhere in their thinking must be ideas on connectivity north to the East Midlands etc) - probably more traffic than retired railway managers and students as discussed before .....they have , after all , invested heavily in the airport and the people mover to replace the bus !


(* the semi fasts for residents of Luton /Harpenden / St Albans etc - plus Radlett / Elstree and Mill Hill are great for quicker links to West Hampstead and beyond...)

BIB - the problem with that is there are other airports which are in easier reach of the East Mids already - East Mids itself, Robin Hood (Sheffield / Doncaster), Birmingham and even Manchester (if you look at the distance from J24 of the M1, so pretty much half way between Derby and Nottingham, Manchester Airport is 78 miles, Luton is 92).

 

[ChiefPlanner]

BIB - the problem with that is there are other airports which are in easier reach of the East Mids already - East Mids itself, Robin Hood (Sheffield / Doncaster), Birmingham and even Manchester (if you look at the distance from J24 of the M1, so pretty much half way between Derby and Nottingham, Manchester Airport is 78 miles, Luton is 92).

Yes - understood - but the flight service offer from Luton I am sure , continues to expand in destinations , - and is surely an opportunity for the future.

(besides - short term - neither Manchester or Birmingham have been great for airport operations recently , which will not do their reputation much good , and as for train services (recently) - East Midlands to Birmingham and beyond , shall we say , - "not great" and there is an ever so easy change at New Street (sorry - Grand Central) to be faced.

Consideration for an hourly service - even a semi/fast , is what is sought....

 

[jayah]

24tph have never ran though. Max was 22tph.

There really aren't any spare class 700's in the peaks. On the East Coast side Thameslink is now back to a full timetable in the peaks.

And on the EM side, they are pretty close to full with the only thing missing a few Bedford - East Grinstead/Littlehampton workings.

And off peak they are 14tph through the core. Plus all the 700's used on Blakckfriars - Sevenoaks and London Kings Cross - Cambridge services. They really aren't much down on pre covid at all.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 May 2022 ==


How do we know there has been lower growth. It seems the only evidence there has been lower growth is people on the forum saying there has been, with no actual numbers to back it up?

Presumably the Class 700s were ordered for 24tph?

That suggests at least 10 'diagrams' the 700s were built for, that aren't operating.

Thameslinks website

https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/travel-information/plan-your-journey/latest-on-our-rail-service

says the following:

Trends suggest that people will continue to work from home more regularly in the future. The railway therefore needs to adapt to lower passenger numbers and the impact of reduced commuting on the industry’s finances, while at the same time, encouraging passengers to return when they are ready.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Yes - understood - but the flight service offer from Luton I am sure , continues to expand in destinations , - and is surely an opportunity for the future.

(besides - short term - neither Manchester or Birmingham have been great for airport operations recently , which will not do their reputation much good , and as for train services (recently) - East Midlands to Birmingham and beyond , shall we say , - "not great" and there is an ever so easy change at New Street (sorry - Grand Central) to be faced.

Consideration for an hourly service - even a semi/fast , is what is sought....

Presumably the Class 700s were ordered for 24tph?

That suggests at least 10 'diagrams' the 700s were built for, that aren't operating.

Thameslinks website

https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/travel-information/plan-your-journey/latest-on-our-rail-service

says the following:

<quote>

</quote>

I have to say - and am a few years now from direct dealings with GTR operations - but pass Cricklewood at say 0900 on a weekday , and there are quite a few berthed , or resting 700's there.

(but then - certain commentators here have said much the same for Camden CS and other places)

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Presumably the Class 700s were ordered for 24tph?

That suggests at least 10 'diagrams' the 700s were built for, that aren't operating.

Thameslinks website

https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/travel-information/plan-your-journey/latest-on-our-rail-service

says the following:

There are defintley not 10 diagrams worth of 700's sitting spare because 24tph isn't happening. Part of the 24tph service London Kings Cross - Cambridge is running anyway.

The bit that isn't is the bit from Finsbury Park to Maidstone East, and that not running has nothing to do with covid, and won't ever run now.

 

[A0]

Yes - understood - but the flight service offer from Luton I am sure , continues to expand in destinations , - and is surely an opportunity for the future.

(besides - short term - neither Manchester or Birmingham have been great for airport operations recently , which will not do their reputation much good , and as for train services (recently) - East Midlands to Birmingham and beyond , shall we say , - "not great" and there is an ever so easy change at New Street (sorry - Grand Central) to be faced.

Consideration for an hourly service - even a semi/fast , is what is sought....

But if you look at Luton's main operations they are split between the "budget" airlines - Easyjet, RyanAir, WizzAir and package operators like Jet2 or Tui.

East Mids have Ryanair, Robin Hood has Wizz, Manchester has Easyjet. Tui and Jet2 fly out of all of those - so unless Luton suddenly gains a load of attractive destinations - bearing in mind the places these airlines serve - it's not going to persuade people to travel further to fly from Luton.

Also, Luton's only runway is 7087ft - fine for smaller aircraft but too short for 777s, 787s, A350s - and no way of extending it unless you fancy a ski jump over the railway line towards Capability Green ?!

For the record, East Mids, Robin Hood, Manchester and Birmingham are over 9,000 ft so capable of taking pretty much anything. The latter two can take A380s as well, not sure about the first two.

 

[jayah]

Wellingborough to London is £177.80 / week, Huntingdon to London is £149.20 / week.

Somebody must understand rail fares then? I think the Huntingdon one may have been an option going via Cambridge. Why?

It is understandable and not unreasonable to expect suburban pricing for suburban rolling stock, but simplicity and equity are not things normally associated with rail pricing...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 May 2022 ==

There are defintley not 10 diagrams worth of 700's sitting spare because 24tph isn't happening. Part of the 24tph service London Kings Cross - Cambridge is running anyway.

The bit that isn't is the bit from Finsbury Park to Maidstone East, and that not running has nothing to do with covid, and won't ever run now.

Were the Class 700s procured to deliver 24tph through the Thameslink core, or not?

In the highest peak hour there are 5 fewer trains north and 5 fewer south.

As the trains are off the core often far more than an hour, the actual number may be nearer to 20 than 10.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Somebody must understand rail fares then? I think the Huntingdon one may have been an option going via Cambridge. Why?

It is understandable and not unreasonable to expect suburban pricing for suburban rolling stock, but simplicity and equity are not things normally associated with rail pricing...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 May 2022 ==


Were the Class 700s procured to deliver 24tph through the Thameslink core, or not?

In the highest peak hour there are 5 fewer trains north and 5 fewer south.

As the trains are off the core often far more than an hour, the actual number may be nearer to 20 than 10.

From the new timetable in the highest peak there are two trains an hour fewer, not 5 so I'm not sure where you are getting your numbers from.

 

[bramling]

I have to say - and am a few years now from direct dealings with GTR operations - but pass Cricklewood at say 0900 on a weekday , and there are quite a few berthed , or resting 700's there.

(but then - certain commentators here have said much the same for Camden CS and other places)

From memory in the pre-Covid timetable at least, most of the units at Cricklewood would be 700/0s, those which go away as a result of Orpington-Luton being cut back to Orpington-Kentish Town.

 

[Mikw]

I think Wellingborough are huge losers from this and if I were living there I would be fuming. From a full intercity service to smelly old 3+2 seats with no refreshments, no first class and 100 mph max, but still having to pay a fare commensurate with a full intercity service, while suburban pax from St Pancras to Cricklewood have new, far more comfortable trains.

It is noticeable that few at Bedford appear to have swapped to the EMT service from Thameslink as its starting saw little difference in loading and if the EMT service is late or cancelled then little extra pax on the next Thameslink.

The good folk of Kettering & Market Harborough must be very glad that the wires didn't reach Leicester or they would have suffered the same.

Its a bit of a mess to be honest.

Isn't it 110 mph max? If so there's only a couple of places on the MML where you can do that anyway, and the superior accleration of the 360's means the journey times from Wellingborough are are about 52 mins.

I've got to be honest, i like the 8 car 360's with unreserved seating, you can always find a seat. Not so much with the 4 cars though.

Actually, i'm one of the "good folk" of Leicester and i wouldn't mind them coming here. The line between Wellingborough and Leicester isn't that quick. And i've noticed that you can often find - at short notice - advanced tickets Between Kettering and London on the 360's for £20- £30. A lot less than you get from Leicester usually. It's cheaper to drive from here and park at Kettering for a day in London.

 

[21C101]

As I understand Thameslink is operating well below pre COVID timetable and don't ever expect commuting to return to those levels.

Judging by the build up in traffic since Easter, even on Mondays and Fridays, their forecasts may need adjusting.

I can forsee Tuesdays to Thursdays overtaking pre pandemic levels by Christmas at this rate.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 May 2022 ==

From the new timetable in the highest peak there are two trains an hour fewer, not 5 so I'm not sure where you are getting your numbers from.

There are three an hour fast to/from bedford fewer than what their should be.

The other two will be the Maidstone Easts being caped at KX.

Are you sure they are permanently going to terminate at KX?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 May 2022 ==

Isn't it 110 mph max? If so there's only a couple of places on the MML where you can do that anyway, and the superior accleration of the 360's means the journey times from Wellingborough are are about 52 mins.

Trains are 110 but the OHLE south of Bedford is only 100mph rated (there is a programme to upgrade it though).

Fair comment though, with the 360s you can actually get a seat at Wellingborough