What has been the fallout - if any - on the EMR "Connect" services to Corby?

[43066]

It's no more than a token service. For most useful practical intents and purposes this journey is no longer possible to make with a direct train.

I suppose it’s really aimed at people with early business meetings in Derby/Notts/Sheffield.

 

[A0]

It’s even worse if you are making this type of journey to or from somewhere like St. Albans with 3 changes and very long journey times. The M1 certainly wins.

Nice try, but not quite true.

St Albans - Leicester is 1h 32m of which 15 min is connection - 10 of that at Luton waiting for the Kettering train. So the net loss versus the pre Corby services is 5 minutes.

If you reckon you can do centre of St Albans to centre of Leicester in rush hour in that time, I'd like to know what you're driving. Even leaving *now* at past 10pm Google Maps reckons it'll take 1h 54m.

 

[name_required]

The pro, because I can only think of one, is I presume, the new, 2TPH fast, high-capacity electric service connecting the Lutons/Bedford/Wellingboro/Ket/Corby.

One undeniable pro is that journeys from stations such as Beeston and Loughborough to London are faster. Other stations such as Nottingham now have more faster trains to London, since the stopping train in each hour no longer stops at Wellingborough, Bedford and one of the Luton stations. Not quite Nottingham in Ninety, but still an improvement.

There may also be a benefit northbound from London of long-distance passengers no longer competing for seats with passengers to Luton or Bedford, but covid makes it hard to know how much difference the change of stopping patterns made.

 

[ChrisC]

Nice try, but not quite true.

St Albans - Leicester is 1h 32m of which 15 min is connection - 10 of that at Luton waiting for the Kettering train. So the net loss versus the pre Corby services is 5 minutes.

If you reckon you can do centre of St Albans to centre of Leicester in rush hour in that time, I'd like to know what you're driving. Even leaving *now* at past 10pm Google Maps reckons it'll take 1h 54m.

But that isn’t what I was saying. If you had read the quote above my post you would see that it was referring to journeys to and from places north of Leicester such as Derby, Chesterfield and Sheffield. These do require 3 changes of train which is far more inconvenient than before.

 

[43066]

My final destination is usually Farringdon and according to NRE, taking the EMR 360 service from Bedford and changing at St Pancras at my usual time is 5 minutes slower than the direct Thameslink train and with more hassle too. The return journey has exact same timings for both options, so better take the direct train for less hassle.

Based on your location, presumably you’re comparing taking the direct GTR train from Huntingdon. Yes that probably is quicker than driving to Bedford and taking a TL from there!

Starting from Bedford the EMRs are approx 20 mins quicker than the GTR trains. Going from St Pancras to Farringdon is a simple matter of walking downstairs and jumping onto the first available southbound GTR, which will very often be one the EMR will have overtaken at Mill Hill or similar. The interchange only takes five minutes or so if you walk reasonably briskly!

 

[flitwickbeds]

Based on your location, presumably you’re comparing taking the direct GTR train from Huntingdon. Yes that probably is quicker than driving to Bedford and taking a TL from there!

Starting from Bedford the EMRs are approx 20 mins quicker than the GTR trains. Going from St Pancras to Farringdon is a simple matter of walking downstairs and jumping onto the first available southbound GTR, which will very often be one the EMR will have overtaken at Mill Hill or similar. The interchange only takes five minutes or so if you walk reasonably briskly!

I assume they were comparing Bedford to Farringdon in both cases with different operators. The minimum connection time at St Pancras is set at 15 minutes so your 20 minutes faster minus 5 minute difference works out correctly. I agree you don't need 15 minutes to change between EMR and TL at St Pancras, but I think you'd struggle to do it in 5 unless you're at the very front of the EMR and walk quickly.

 

[yorksrob]

It sounds very much as though the Treasury want to charge InterCity fares for a local service.

They should rectify this (as others have pointed out, they're quick to Jack up the price when the change is the other way round !).

 

[A0]

But that isn’t what I was saying. If you had read the quote above my post you would see that it was referring to journeys to and from places north of Leicester such as Derby, Chesterfield and Sheffield. These do require 3 changes of train which is far more inconvenient than before.

And the impact is still the same as it has been for the last dozen or so years ie. since Corby opened.

Since Corby reopened the pattern for the Kettering, Wellingboro' Bedford and Luton was 2 tph, 1 to Corby the other Nottingham, so a change at Leicester was needed so that's not new or related to the Corby electrics.

 

[Envy123]

Based on your location, presumably you’re comparing taking the direct GTR train from Huntingdon. Yes that probably is quicker than driving to Bedford and taking a TL from there!

Starting from Bedford the EMRs are approx 20 mins quicker than the GTR trains. Going from St Pancras to Farringdon is a simple matter of walking downstairs and jumping onto the first available southbound GTR, which will very often be one the EMR will have overtaken at Mill Hill or similar. The interchange only takes five minutes or so if you walk reasonably briskly!

I did use Bedford when the ECML was severely disrupted. And station to station, NRE implies that the direct Thameslink train is faster in the morning at my usual times than taking EMR and changing. So I’d take Thameslink from there if my usual Huntingdon route was disrupted.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

But that isn’t what I was saying. If you had read the quote above my post you would see that it was referring to journeys to and from places north of Leicester such as Derby, Chesterfield and Sheffield. These do require 3 changes of train which is far more inconvenient than before.

Back in the day , I was able to ensure the "slow" Nottingham made an hourly call at Luton Airport Parkway (the out of touch DfT wanted a call in the then hourly Corby) , this gave good connectivity to the north or what the Yanks would call a "one seat journey" for a good number of destinations. It seemed to work quite well and there were examples of interesting journeys - such as LAP - Manchester on affordable fares being routed this way.

Now - living in St Albans - this was a doddle as when my eldest son studied at Nottingham University it was a simple , easy journey and one that matched the off peak M! journey, and we used it frequently.

Even with free rail travel , one does not consider using the MML northbound due to the need to change at least twice , so the options of doing so by rail are so tedious and awkward one does not do so. Neighbours who did business journeys , as well as a new generation of students at Notts or Sheffield , have not used the train.

So a smallish flow lost - and pardon for mentioning this again , but in the context of the usefulness of the MML , it is a gap. Compare to the ECML with useful calls at Stevenage for longer distance trains - accessed easily from the large Herts etc catchment areas.

 

[70014IronDuke]

...
Now - living in St Albans - this was a doddle as when my eldest son studied at Nottingham University it was a simple , easy journey and one that matched the off peak M! journey, and we used it frequently.

Even with free rail travel , one does not consider using the MML northbound due to the need to change at least twice , so the options of doing so by rail are so tedious and awkward one does not do so. Neighbours who did business journeys , as well as a new generation of students at Notts or Sheffield , have not used the train.

...

Well, if it's too much bother with free tickets available, it's certainly too much trouble when you have to pay. What a sad state of affairs.

 

[A0]

Well, if it's too much bother with free tickets available, it's certainly too much trouble when you have to pay. What a sad state of affairs.

The irony is the added impact is minimal - it's one further change and that change has added 5 minutes to the overall journey time - to give an example

Leaving St Albans City (SAC) around 11am today, the journey time to Nottingham is 1h 56m.

The first train is SAC - Luton Airport d 11.11 a 11.22

The second train is Luton Airport - Kettering d 11.37 a 12.14

The final train is Kettering - Nottingham d 12.21 a 13.07

There would *always* have been the interchange at Luton and that's the longest wait (15 mins).

The new timetable deliberately minimised the connection time at Kettering - so whilst there is an additional change the impact of it was minimised as far as practical.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 May 2022 ==

Back in the day , I was able to ensure the "slow" Nottingham made an hourly call at Luton Airport Parkway (the out of touch DfT wanted a call in the then hourly Corby) , this gave good connectivity to the north or what the Yanks would call a "one seat journey" for a good number of destinations. It seemed to work quite well and there were examples of interesting journeys - such as LAP - Manchester on affordable fares being routed this way.

Now - living in St Albans - this was a doddle as when my eldest son studied at Nottingham University it was a simple , easy journey and one that matched the off peak M! journey, and we used it frequently.

Even with free rail travel , one does not consider using the MML northbound due to the need to change at least twice , so the options of doing so by rail are so tedious and awkward one does not do so. Neighbours who did business journeys , as well as a new generation of students at Notts or Sheffield , have not used the train.

So a smallish flow lost - and pardon for mentioning this again , but in the context of the usefulness of the MML , it is a gap. Compare to the ECML with useful calls at Stevenage for longer distance trains - accessed easily from the large Herts etc catchment areas.

But as you'll also be aware the long standing complaint from East Mids and South Yorks was that they had slow trains to London by comparison to other destinations a similar distance from London and that their trains were being crowded out by commuters using them from Luton and Bedford to / from London - which was a fair criticism.

The fastest Nottingham trains are ~ 1h 32m, compared with Newark which is ~ 1h 15m or Sheffield which is ~1h 58m compared to Doncaster which is ~1h 30m.

EMR were caught a bit between a rock and a hard place on this. Putting the interchange at Kettering made most sense because Bedford would have meant Kettering and Wellingborough passengers wishing to travel north would have had to double back - whereas the impact on their journey time is minimal. Putting Luton calls into one of the Nottinghams or Sheffields would add 3-5 minutes to their journey times - which isn't a "good news" story to them as I'm not sure they value a link to Luton that much.....

 

[Envy123]

But as you'll also be aware the long standing complaint from East Mids and South Yorks was that they had slow trains to London by comparison to other destinations a similar distance from London and that their trains were being crowded out by commuters using them from Luton and Bedford to / from London - which was a fair criticism.

The fastest Nottingham trains are ~ 1h 32m, compared with Newark which is ~ 1h 15m or Sheffield which is ~1h 58m compared to Doncaster which is ~1h 30m.

EMR were caught a bit between a rock and a hard place on this.

Interesting to see the differences between the MML and ECML in this regard.

The northern terminus of Thameslink trains on both routes are Bedford and Peterborough, but Peterborough is further out and comparable in distance to Kettering.

So, yeah, I see why the Nottinghams are first stop Kettering, from a distance perspective. I am sure that ECML intercity trains would be much slower if they would be first stop Sandy and all stations to Doncaster.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The subtle point made , is that forcing say 2 changes on leisure and some business journeys onto quite prosperous areas for travelling north kills the possible business. Which does not travel by rail as a result.* People do not want to schelp over footbridges etc for what used to be "one seat" journeys.....

Of course , everyone wants a nice quick journey with no tedious intermediates boarding and tramping into your personal space. The old scatter gun approach of East Midlands doing all sorts of calls in the up peak (HST's calling at Luton Airport Parkway in the peak on the fast lines might have gained a slice of ORCATS business) - sort of defeats your argument -and for what is left of the commuter traffic to that there London being segregated thanks to the Corby electrics probably makes sense.

One argues for a call in the "slow" Nottinghams at Parkway - and not much more. Non commuter traffics.

I do not care for my (free) travel being redirected elsewhere , but a known senior lawyer who used to travel on "EMR" for Crown Court attendances , many leisure and university etc passengers etc from here just do not consider the train unless they can be persuaded to drive to Stevenage or even Watford (and there you just get an hourly West Midlands service , having run the gauntlet of local traffic and then get price gouged for parking)

*An example - a group of 10 fare payers asked my advice for a group outing - Stamford via Leicester might have been an option - considered that via Kings Cross and PBO - in the end they went to splendid Broadstairs via an easy change and a mooch around St Pancras before getting HS1 - doubt 3 changes at Luton / Kettering / Leicester would have made for what Wallis and Gromit might have termed a "Grand Day Out" .....

Yes they went - and it was a good day out.

 

[43066]

Neighbours who did business journeys , as well as a new generation of students at Notts or Sheffield , have not used the train.

I can certainly see that (just as I can see why Wellingborough passengers are cheesed off), but I suppose the *much* larger congregation of potential users in London heading to Sheffield/Notts, and vice versa, are now more likely to use EMR due to shortened journey times.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I can certainly see that (just as I can see why Wellingborough passengers are cheesed off), but I suppose the *much* larger congregation of potential users in London heading to Sheffield/Notts, and vice versa, are now more likely to use EMR due to shortened journey times.

Agreed - but the smaller flows , as I mentioned , add revenue and so on to the bottom line. As I said , a modest intervention for one train an hour - off peak even can add a bit more cash.

(we had interesting debates as long ago as 2003 on calls at Watford Junction on the WCML for minor places like Manchester / Liverpool and so on - which were removed for the benefit of the non stop journeys from / to further north in the benefit of improved journey times - leaving just the West Midlands only as calls - but shall we say the revenue was not inconsiderable. Many hundreds of thousands in some cases) HS2 should be a solution , if not before.....

 

[philthetube]

and similarly to the discussion, fares from Watford were not reduced to reflect the inferior service either.

 

[Jimini]

and similarly to the discussion, fares from Watford were not reduced to reflect the inferior service either.

Fares to / from Watford are nothing short of ridiculous. Bit off topic, but they are absolutely bonkers.

 

[DelayRepay]

Now - living in St Albans - this was a doddle as when my eldest son studied at Nottingham University it was a simple , easy journey and one that matched the off peak M! journey, and we used it frequently.

Even with free rail travel , one does not consider using the MML northbound due to the need to change at least twice , so the options of doing so by rail are so tedious and awkward one does not do so. Neighbours who did business journeys , as well as a new generation of students at Notts or Sheffield , have not used the train.

When I lived near St Albans, with family in Sheffield, I was a regular MML user, changing at Luton Airport Parkway and Nottingham. Now I'd have to change at Kettering too.

The reason I went by train was I found it more relaxing than driving. Not sure I'd choose the train if I had to make the journey today, with three changes.

 

[baz962]

When I lived near St Albans, with family in Sheffield, I was a regular MML user, changing at Luton Airport Parkway and Nottingham. Now I'd have to change at Kettering too.

The reason I went by train was I found it more relaxing than driving. Not sure I'd choose the train if I had to make the journey today, with three changes.

You could of gone south to st pancras on a Thameslink and then got on a Sheffield , still quicker than driving.

 

[Watershed]

You could of gone south to st pancras on a Thameslink and then got on a Sheffield , still quicker than driving.

Yes, but you have to pay quite a lot more to do so!

With the added change at Kettering, I don't think it would have been unreasonable for Corby/Wellingborough-London fares to be reduced (obviously the former being constrained by the Kettering fare), and for the price of Luton/St Albans/Bedford via London tickets to the north to be reduced to match the fare from London.

 

[Starmill]

I think that there are two significant takeaways:

One is that revenues from Wellingborough commuters are well down, and as noted upthread First Class from Wellingborough has gone from a nice money spinner to essentially nothing overnight. But it's impossible to remove the Covid effects from this and it's impossible to guess what state they'd be in now under the 2018 timetable.

The other is that load factors better Bedford and Corby are rubbish. Trains have become more frequent but are carrying very few people. It's more expensive to run two eight car EMUs per hour than one four / five car DMU because the staff cost is much higher and this cannot be offset by the efficiency gain from AC traction.

 

[43066]

The other is that load factors better Bedford and Corby are rubbish. Trains have become more frequent but are carrying very few people. It's more expensive to run two eight car EMUs per hour than one four / five car DMU because the staff cost is much higher and this cannot be offset by the efficiency gain from AC traction.

A few £hundred million to electrify that section of route, £20k+ each time one of the electric units is dragged to Northampton for maintenance, £5-15k in delay minutes each time one has sat down (depending on length obviously).

But the staff costs are *clearly* the main problem.

 

[DelayRepay]

You could of gone south to st pancras on a Thameslink and then got on a Sheffield , still quicker than driving.

Not really. Obviously it depends on the time of day and where exactly you're travelling from and to. It's been a while since I've done the journey but National Rail is suggesting going via St Pancras takes three hours, station to station. Google Maps suggests road would take 2.5 hours door to door.

 

[baz962]

Not really. Obviously it depends on the time of day and where exactly you're travelling from and to. It's been a while since I've done the journey but National Rail is suggesting going via St Pancras takes three hours, station to station. Google Maps suggests road would take 2.5 hours door to door.

Well let's take today as I was on a st pancras to Sheffield. Got in on time . I didn't come from st Alban's city , but there was a 14.27. That's 2 hours and 31 minutes. Of course that's not door to door , but you wouldn't be going door to door if it stopped at Luton. As for Google maps , good luck. It's around 140 miles from st Alban's as the crow flies. I just looked and via M1 it's saying 154 miles and 2 hours 49 minutes. And yes it might be different at other times.

 

[Watershed]

Well let's take today as I was on the 15.02 st pancras to Sheffield. Got in on time at 16.58. I didn't come from st Alban's city , but there was a 14.27. That's 2 hours and 31 minutes. Of course that's not door to door , but you wouldn't be going door to door if it stopped at Luton. As for Google maps , good luck. It's around 140 miles from st Alban's as the crow flies. I just looked and via M1 it's saying 154 miles and 2 hours 49 minutes. And yes it might be different at other times.

That's only a 13 minute connection, which is less than the 15 minute minimum connection time. So you wouldn't be offered that itinerary by a journey planner and more importantly, would have no protection if you missed the 15:02 as a result of the 14:27 running late or being cancelled. You wouldn't be entitled to take the next train on an Advance, nor would you be entitled to any delay compensation.

Clearly there are still some reasonable journey times possible, but overall these kinds of journeys have become much more inconvenient and expensive than it previously was. It would be wrong to pretend otherwise.

The new MML timetable makes a trade-off that places a higher value on London to Leicester, Nottingham, Derby and Sheffield journeys, than those from intermediate stations south of Kettering. Whether that's the right call is another issue, but it is a trade-off and intermediate stations do lose out, considerably so in some cases.

 

[Starmill]

Well let's take today as I was on the 15.02 st pancras to Sheffield. Got in on time at 16.58. I didn't come from st Alban's city , but there was a 14.27. That's 2 hours and 31 minutes. Of course that's not door to door , but you wouldn't be going door to door if it stopped at Luton. As for Google maps , good luck. It's around 140 miles from st Alban's as the crow flies. I just looked and via M1 it's saying 154 miles and 2 hours 49 minutes. And yes it might be different at other times.

Most people will use National Rail Enquiries or the EMR website. They won't know about this short connection so they won't use it in their decision making.

 

[baz962]

Most people will use National Rail Enquiries or the EMR website. They won't know about this short connection so they won't use it in their decision making.

I only used national rail myself.

 

[Watershed]

I only used national rail myself.

The minimum connection time at St Pancras is 15 minutes, so I don't know how you would have got this itinerary to come up, unless you searched for each leg individually (which a novice traveller wouldn't necessarily think to do)?

 

[DelayRepay]

The minimum connection time at St Pancras is 15 minutes, so I don't know how you would have got this itinerary to come up, unless you searched for each leg individually (which a novice traveller wouldn't necessarily think to do)?

If anything I think a novice traveller is likely to extend the connection time rather than reduce it. Even as an experienced traveller, I'd be nervous about relying on an unofficial 12 minute connection at St Pancras unless I had a flexible ticket. You only need a little delay on Thameslink, which is not unknown, to cause you to miss the connection and if you're travelling on an advance ticket you're stuck.

But I think we're kind of straying from the point of the thread. I gave an example of a journey I used to make that I probably wouldn't make by rail now because of the changes to the northbound service pattern. I appreciate that for journeys between other combinations of stations, the changes tip the balance in favour of rail and the planners have to work out the optimum calling patterns at a macro level.