What I want to see in CP6

[Bald Rick]

I stand corrected. I'm not gonna lie to you Bald Rick, I'm not as familiar with the Lea Valley as I thought I was!
Not 4-tracking the WAML would be incredibly remiss though, especially with Crossrail 2 apparently on the horizon...

4 tracking of the WAML is an integral part of Crossrail 2. There's no point in doing it beforehand as there's no space in London to send any additional trains (without the Crossrail 2 tunnels). Therefore it won't be happening without Crossrail 2 (and there is no separate project looking at it).

I think describing Crossrail 2 as being on the horizon is incredibly optimistic

That depends on how far away the horizon is. Short of some major restructuring or disaster for the economy, I can definitely see it happening. But from what I have heard there is at least 5 more years of planning work, and 10 years construction.

The title of the thread is about what folk want to see in CP6. It was telling that the railway profs didn't read the title and did their usual put-downs - inappropriately.

Guilty as charged. But then saying 'what I want to see in CP6', when it has largely already been decided, is like saying 'the team I want to win the Premiership this year' and stating 'Arsenal'.

Now if the thread was titled 'what I want to see in CP8', it could have generated more debate.

 

[kevconnor]

Investment in some bottles of Mr Sheen and a pack on Pledge Dusters for the Northern Rail 150's.

 

[Domh245]

That depends on how far away the horizon is. Short of some major restructuring or disaster for the economy, I can definitely see it happening. But from what I have heard there is at least 5 more years of planning work, and 10 years construction.

The impression that I've got from other forums is that the DfT are trying to force through all manner of independent reviews and similar, seemingly as part of some sort of battle against TfL (who being led by someone with a red rosette are the 'bad guys'). Quoting @plcd1's post from another forum

"I can't recall where he made his recent remark about CR2 but Mr H said that requesting repeated "independent reviews" was a classic govt move when it wanted to kill something off. Mr Grayling will, of course, always say that he is merely trying to protect the national purse in respect of CR2 and ensuring "value for money for taxpayers" and that "a proper balance of funding sources" is in place and that "the right scheme" is taken forward.

What we seem to be seeing a classic battle over scope, cost, benefits and funding. We were here for 30+ years with Crossrail and probably 25+ years for a large scale Thameslink scheme. The fact TfL are trying to get CR2 through in about a decade must be viewed as sheer provocation by some in government - especially as CR1 has yet to finish, to carry a fare paying passenger or prove its worth. You don't need much imagination (or excessive viewing of Yes Minister) to imagine the "arguments" being put forward in the DfT and Treasury about not wanting a mad dash to build CR2. There are also just a "few" other issues preoccupying government at present but that's not for here."

Of course, that doesn't preclude it ever going ahead, but by your own admission it seems the best case scenario is that the horizon is at least one CP away.

 

[D365]

Have I actually woken up this morning or am I accessing the forum through my dreams??

 

[HowardGWR]

Perhaps the OP would kindly alter his thread title to 'What I want to see in CP9' and then we can have a renewed sensible discussion instead of the unnecessary carping comment. If a scheme has merit, then what is really an issue is 'why we are proceeding with schemes in CP6 (not many of those by the way, are there?) when a better scheme, had it commenced with initial feasibility study, would almost certainly have overtaken the ones that are further down the road?

I cite 1) Exeter to Plymouth via Okehampton and raise you 2) MML electrification plus Derby to Buxton via Bakewell. Both are strategically important respectively to extend and balance main line provision in England. Much loose change left over after not proceeding with HS2 phase 2b.

I am ignoring Scotland and Wales as these are devolved issues and I simply don't have a clue about Northern Ireland or Gibraltar and don't want to either .

 

[59CosG95]

A more sensible suggestion, perhaps?
I'm sure it's been raised many times in the forum before now to reopen the Leicester-Burton line to passenger traffic, along with reopening the Castle Donington Line to passenger traffic.
Personally, I'd like to see EMT (or the new EM franchise holder) restore services along the routes; of those two, Leicester-Coalville-Burton seems to have the better business case as it serves a larger number of settlements, but resignalling that whole route and restoring the northbound curve at Knighton Junction will be the main obstacles to overcome.
Providing the Castle Donington route with passenger services could reap more rewards if the Sinfin branch was extended along its old alignment through Chellaston to rejoin the Castle Donington route near Swarksetone Rd; however, the Bonnie Prince Roundabout on the A50 (Derby Southern Bypass) is in the way.
I mention Donington on here as

1. it could improve the service frequency of the Leicester-East Mids Pkwy corridor if these services used that route,
2. it could provide IC services from Leicester with a diversionary route into Derby if the line via Long Eaton is shut for any reason,
3. a station at Castle Donington would be very well received by the racetrack during large events (particularly Download Festival).

Trent Jct would pose a problem if a circular service were to be created around Derby, however.

 

[jopsuk]

The six-track Cheshunt-Broxbourne section is perhaps the daftest bit. Four track with grade separation though...

If CR2 could be fast tracked, then a (mad) ambitious plan to further boost the lee Valley- re-redevelop Broadgate.

Rebuild the Broadgate development with a station in the basement. Route the tracks for the Overground into it, with a station at Shoreditch. There would be eight tracks from Bethnal Green inwards. This leaves Liverpool Street for:
West Anglia to Bishops Stortford, Stansted Airport and Cambridge (and beyond)
GEML Essex commuter services
GEML Suffolk and Norfolk express
Crossrail peak time extras
(and LTS diversions)

Also add:

An extra tunnel pair to take the WAML fast services from Tottenham Hale to Hackney bypassing Clapton

A chord at Coppermill Junction to allow Stratford-Chesunt services

Major reconstruction at Stratford- the whole station needs rethought, but specifically here to allow a high-capacity turn around.

four track Boxbourne-Harlow Town

full two-track Broxbourne-Hertford East.

Service patterns:

Crossrail 2: 16tph to Harlow Town

Overground from Broadgate:
8tph to Enfield Town
4tph to Chingford
4tph to Hertford East via Tottenham Hale
4tph to Cheshunt via Seven Sisters

Overground from Stratford:
4tph to Chingford
4tph to Hertford East

(gives 12tph to Edmonton Green and 24tph Tottenham Hale to Broxbourne stopper)

WAML
4tph Airport
4tph Stortford
4tph Cambridge

Upgrade Fast lines to allow 200km/h (125mph) operation

(as far as I understand reality was not required here?)

 

[59CosG95]

The six-track Cheshunt-Broxbourne section is perhaps the daftest bit. Four track with grade separation though...

If CR2 could be fast tracked, then a (mad) ambitious plan to further boost the lee Valley- re-redevelop Broadgate.

Rebuild the Broadgate development with a station in the basement. Route the tracks for the Overground into it, with a station at Shoreditch. There would be eight tracks from Bethnal Green inwards. This leaves Liverpool Street for:
West Anglia to Bishops Stortford, Stansted Airport and Cambridge (and beyond)
GEML Essex commuter services
GEML Suffolk and Norfolk express
Crossrail peak time extras
(and LTS diversions)

Also add:

An extra tunnel pair to take the WAML fast services from Tottenham Hale to Hackney bypassing Clapton

A chord at Coppermill Junction to allow Stratford-Chesunt services

Major reconstruction at Stratford- the whole station needs rethought, but specifically here to allow a high-capacity turn around.

four track Boxbourne-Harlow Town

full two-track Broxbourne-Hertford East.

Service patterns:

Crossrail 2: 16tph to Harlow Town

Overground from Broadgate:
8tph to Enfield Town
4tph to Chingford
4tph to Hertford East via Tottenham Hale
4tph to Cheshunt via Seven Sisters

Overground from Stratford:
4tph to Chingford
4tph to Hertford East

(gives 12tph to Edmonton Green and 24tph Tottenham Hale to Broxbourne stopper)

WAML
4tph Airport
4tph Stortford
4tph Cambridge

Upgrade Fast lines to allow 200km/h (125mph) operation

(as far as I understand reality was not required here?)

Of that, I can only really see the removal of the bottleneck at Ware being a realistic option.
Roydon poses a problem with its level crossing; if you were to expand the railway land southwards, you'd have to build right over the River Stort. (see here: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.7752692,0.0389617,17.28z)
You can already go from Cheshunt to Stratford via Coppermill Jct IIRC.
The Stratford reconstruction is however where I consider fetching the men in white coats.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I am easy to please. All I want in CP6 is more electrification.

 

[59CosG95]

More regional devolution would also be welcome, along with the transfer of services to other operators where feasible.
For example, Merseyrail services would be fully extended from Southport and Kirkby to Wigan Wallgate, creating a sort of "outer circle" between the 3 points; this could be advertised as a sort of longer-distance brand of Merseyrail (a la Silverlink County vs Silverlink Metro).
I'd also like to see

• TfWM taking control of WMR once the franchise handover occurs,
• a greater emphasis on TfGM controlling more of Northern's all-shacks services out of Manchester,
• the combined authorities of Portsmouth, Eastleigh & Southampton holding sway (though not that far west!) over services around the Solent
• the development of the Greater Bristol Metro, with reopening to Portishead.

 

[infobleep]

saying 'what I want to see in CP6', when it has largely already been decided, is like saying 'the team I want to win the Premiership this year' and stating 'Arsenal'.

Perhaps the thread could be changed to what I wouldn't like to see postponded or dropped altogether from CP6.