What is a 'vestible'?!

[aj1977]

London Midland have put some new signs in the 1st class area of the Class 321s saying that you can't sit there without a 1st class ticket, "including the vestible". Surely they mean 'vestibule'!

 

[yorkie]

Yes, but 321s only have small FC compartments sandwiched between SC areas, and don't have their own vestibules do they?

A vestibule, in railway terms, is defined as 'an enclosed area between two rail cars', in the case of the 321s there are only the interconnecting doors between coaches, there are no external doors in this area, due to the 2/3 door alignment. And that's assuming the 321's FC area isn't behind the drivers cab (is it? I can't remember), if it is then there is no vestibule there.

Or are they referring to the doorway areas as vestibules? I've never known that area referred to as a 'vestibule', but that would be ludicrous, as both SC and FC adjoin that area.

 

[O L Leigh]

A vestibule is defined as 'an enclosed area between two rail cars'.

Vestibule: A passage, hall, or antechamber between the outer door and the interior parts of a house or building.

Essentially, the vestibules are the doorways. As you step onto the train, you are in a vestibule until you turn either left or right into the saloon.

O L Leigh

 

[matt]

The ex-silverlink 321s have first class accomodation behind the drivers cab and I think there is a set of doors for only the first class section as it goes, cab, first class saloon, doors, more first class then standard, other doors and a bit more standard.

 

[aj1977]

Yes, I assume they are calling the area immediately inside the doors the vestibule...except the sign says 'vestible'.

 

[delt1c]

Unlike the Liverpool St 321's the LM 321'2 have 2 1st class sections in the DTC. The 1st set of sliding doors behind the driving cab have 1st class compartments to both left and right on entering unlike the Liverpool St units which only have 1st class directly behind the driving cab. Saying that I would be very p****d of to pay for 1st class and have to stand in a vestible for the journey

 

[Nick279]

London Midland have put some new signs in the 1st class area of the Class 321s saying that you can't sit there without a 1st class ticket, "including the vestible". Surely they mean 'vestibule'!

maybe they mean vegetable, well thats the way I feel on some of the over subscibed services

 

[aj1977]

And another point is that on the Birmingham to Walsall route where they're using the 321s, you can't even buy a 1st class ticket! I thought this meant that 1st class was automatically de-classified but the posters and TMs don't seem to think so.

 

[yorkie]

It may well be applicable on the LM 321s then, I thought they were like the ones on the Great Eastern, but obviously not.

It's still daft though.

And another point is that on the Birmingham to Walsall route where they're using the 321s, you can't even buy a 1st class ticket! I thought this meant that 1st class was automatically de-classified but the posters and TMs don't seem to think so.

If there is no FC fare, then it's 1.5 times the Standard fare.

 

[Mojo]

If there is no FC fare, then it's 1.5 times the Standard fare.

There are some routes though where there is no First Class accommodation advertised. I believe this means First is automatically declassified. An example is Transpennine Express 158s working FGW local services and of course the 321s on Walsall services.

There are also other occasions when a train with First Class is advertised for providing services between two stations where no First Class fare normally exists. An example is the few Voyagers (CrossCountry) and HST which operates between Bristol Temple Meads & Filton Abbey Wood. I've once asked if I can buy a First Class fare, both from the Train Manager and ticket office, but I have always been refused, saying there is no First Class option on their ticket machine, so it is not avaliable.

 

[mrcheek]

I know what a "vestibule" is, and I assume "vestible" is just an alternate spelling designed by somebody who wants to cheat at scrabble.

But what I would like to know is where I can find the "passenger saloons" on local FGW services. Apparently they have posters there.....

 

[O L Leigh]

I did a Google search to try and find out if there really is something called a "vestible", but I keep hitting sexual health websites aimed at young women.

Apparently it is the name for a part of a lady's intimate anatomy, but even there it appears to be a misspelling given the variations between different websites (yes, I checked more than one).

O L Leigh

 

[hairyhandedfool]

There are some routes though where there is no First Class accommodation advertised. I believe this means First is automatically declassified. An example is Transpennine Express 158s working FGW local services and of course the 321s on Walsall services.

There are also other occasions when a train with First Class is advertised for providing services between two stations where no First Class fare normally exists.....

The NFM says:

Where a first class fare is not shown for the throughout journey and first class accommodation is available for part of the journey, a through first class ticket can still be issued. This is based on the the standard throughout fare plus the difference between the first class and standard fares for the portion of the journey where first class is available. If there is first class available for the whole journey and a first class fare is not shown, add 50% of the standard fare rounded to the nearest 10p.

For those who didn't do so well in maths that means, for example, 15p becomes 20p but 12.5p would be 10p.

There is no real mention of it in the CoC, excepting that there is no room in the standard section and you have permission from the on-train staff, unless you look in the season ticket part where it adds that a standard ticket holder can use first class compartments if there is a notice to say they can.

Thameslink used such notices, on some of the 319/1s, when they had half the 319/1s converted to standard only 319/3s.

 

[yorkie]

There are some routes though where there is no First Class accommodation advertised. I believe this means First is automatically declassified. An example is Transpennine Express 158s working FGW local services and of course the 321s on Walsall services.

Correct - if it is not advertised then it is declassified. Sometimes you have to prove it by showing them a timetable though (more in the case of RPIs than guards I believe).

There are also other occasions when a train with First Class is advertised for providing services between two stations where no First Class fare normally exists. An example is the few Voyagers (CrossCountry) and HST which operates between Bristol Temple Meads & Filton Abbey Wood. I've once asked if I can buy a First Class fare, both from the Train Manager and ticket office, but I have always been refused, saying there is no First Class option on their ticket machine, so it is not avaliable.

If you offer to pay the fare and they refuse, they are presumably allowing it free then?

They're wrong - it's 1.5 times the SC fare. I guess it's too much hassle for them for only a few pence extra, as there's probably no easy way to do it with their avantix machines. You could get the ticket from the ticket office perhaps?

 

[Mojo]

How would they do it? Would they have to issue a Standard ticket and then a Std to 1st excess? What about from station ticket machines?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If there is only a standard ticket, you can't do it on Fastis machines, there is no feature to allow it. I have never used the Fujitsu machines, but the Shere machines have a Manuel Ticket option. I would imagine the Advantix have the option but it may be too much hassle for the Guards.

If there is First class for part of the journey, for which there is a first class fare, you can do it on Fastis, if there is not, you can't.

As for station ticket machines (TVM) They generally, to my Knowledge, only have the fares as in the fares manuel, and would require that you speak to the guard.

Where is it written that first class sections of a train are declassified where the timetable says there is no first class? I don't think that I have ever seen that written anywhere.

 

[Mr Spock]

The timetable that I picked up at New St (Stafford-Birmingham via Walsall) shows that many of the trains have 1st class which are presumably the ones operated by 321's. So looks like no free up-grades.

 

[class 313]

The timetable that I picked up at New St (Stafford-Birmingham via Walsall) shows that many of the trains have 1st class which are presumably the ones operated by 321's. So looks like no free up-grades.

I think they are 350 routes, but I'm not sure with LM...

 

[yorkie]

You'd struggle to get a 321 or 350 from Stafford to Birmingham via Walsall...

 

[class 313]

You'd struggle to get a 321 or 350 from Stafford to Birmingham via Walsall...

Hmm I was indeed thinking that

 

[Mr Spock]

The timetable includes Birmingham-Walsall trains as well. As far as I am aware 350's do not run these services but are a mix of 323's and 321's.

 

[class 313]

Is the Abbey line (St Albans - Watford) still not covered by First Class or have LM made it a FC route?

 

[Galvanize]

Not like FGW who seem to of made Greenford, Windsor+Eton Central, Marlow, Henley-on-Thames and Biecester branches FC hock:

Aren't some of the stations on the Abbey Flyer route unstaffed anyway, so that would be interesting having to pay for FC tickets on the train.

 

[class 313]

Aren't some of the stations on the Abbey Flyer route unstaffed anyway, so that would be interesting having to pay for FC tickets on the train.

All stations apart from Watford Junction are unstaffed.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Is the Abbey line (St Albans - Watford) still not covered by First Class or have LM made it a FC route?

First class on a 313?, now that is desperate!!

 

[class 313]

First class on a 313?, now that is desperate!!

The line is mostly operated by a 321/4.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Ah my mistake thought it was still 313s

 

[class 313]

Ah my mistake thought it was still 313s

I hear reports now and then that it is a 313 but most of the time it is indeed a 321. As by the end of Silverlink, it was deemed a "county" route.

 

[Mojo]

It wouldn't surprise me that the service is run most of the time by a 321 seeing as London Midland don't have any 313s - I assume the ones you've heard about are on short term loan from London Overground?

 

[class 313]

It wouldn't surprise me that the service is run most of the time by a 321 seeing as London Midland don't have any 313s - I assume the ones you've heard about are on short term loan from London Overground?

Even before the end of Silverlink, 321s ran the line mostly. 2006ish and before it was mostly class 313s with the drivers based at Watford.

Though there is talk about having just one special unit for the line, be it a 313 or a 321. Then again, a 350 will soon need to be tested for the line!