What is going on at Barnham this morning? (04/07/2023)

[43066]

I wouldn't regard "taking a few days" as acceptable, and it wouldn't be in, for example, the NHS, a government department, or a local authority.

And there was no certainty that they would get back in the building the same day, that would not have been the case if there had been structural damage.

There’s never going to be enough money flying around to justify a spare depot “just in case” though. As above the contingency will be cancelling some trains, cross covering with spare/standby drivers from other depots where possible.

I’m sure there are many, many areas of the NHS, government departments etc. which also lack redundancy!

 

[OscarH]

The traincrew depot/room is now above the Co-op iirc. Fair old walk from the station as you go down the ramps and round that passageway.

For platform 3 I think they often use the staff gate in the car park, but yeah, long walk for 1 and 2

 

[Towers]

One would hope that, in addition to criminal proceedings, he will be landed with a very hefty bill for all the delayed trains (with no option to duck out through bankruptcy)

Well, ramraid by crane, you’d hope for more than a suspended sentence certainly!

I say lock him up - that’ll weigh heavy!

 

[Bald Rick]

But that's not the point. Even if it hadn't happened before it is still a non zero risk, and one that has today been demonstrated to have a high impact.

well, it is the point. The size of the non-zero risk determines what your mitigation for that risk is.

If the risk is, say, a once a year chance of completely shutting the infrastructure on a certain stretch of route for 24 hours+ with no notice, then it’s quite likely you’ll make arrangements to counter that where that is feasible eg twice as many feeder stations as the network needs, and standby generators for signalling supplies.

If the risk is say, a once every 50 years chance of not being able to provide traincrew for some (but not all) services on a give stretch of route, then it’s quite likely that you won’t have mitigating arrangements other than “don’t run the service”

 

[Dave W]

well, it is the point. The size of the non-zero risk determines what your mitigation for that risk is.

If the risk is, say, a once a year chance of completely shutting the infrastructure on a certain stretch of route for 24 hours+ with no notice, then it’s quite likely you’ll make arrangements to counter that where that is feasible eg twice as many feeder stations as the network needs, and standby generators for signalling supplies.

If the risk is say, a once every 50 years chance of not being able to provide traincrew for some (but not all) services on a give stretch of route, then it’s quite likely that you won’t have mitigating arrangements other than “don’t run the service”

I am intrigued by this view, not because I disagree with it, far from it - from my (limited) business continuity work in IT the once in 50 year catastrophe usually involves the building collapsing or something - but because the railway's business is purely largely about the provision of a service, and so in the pursuit of carrying on their business you'd expect other business continuity plans to overlap, perhaps even from service recovery plans.

Then again - a few years ago I set up a new provision for an insourced team of back-end service devs - building, networking, hardware the lot. If the building fell over there was a "backup location" which we'd tried to sort as a (non-IT but passable) office in the nearest big town 30 miles away. The eventual solution was some 200 miles north, the manning of which would take long enough that the entire organisation would have ground to a halt in the mean time

 

[DarloRich]

But that's not the point. Even if it hadn't happened before it is still a non zero risk, and one that has today been demonstrated to have a high impact.

High impact ( although debatable how high on a company/operational site manager basis) and very low likelihood. What colour would that score on your risk assessment matrix?

I wouldn't regard "taking a few days" as acceptable, and it wouldn't be in, for example, the NHS, a government department, or a local authority.

And there was no certainty that they would get back in the building the same day, that would not have been the case if there had been structural damage.

Are you suggesting that if one ward on a hospital was closed the whole hospital would close, decamp to an alternative site and run from there and do so almost instantly? That just isn't realistic.

In reality your plan would say: Ward 15 is closed due to X ( X being a non contagious reason like a power cut) transfer all patients to other wards and in particular ward 17/19. Refuse admissions for ward 15 specialties until reopened. Redirect patients to St James in Little Snoddlington . Inform Little Snoddlington of our emergency.

IF the hospital burnt down I would expect an emergency relocation to an alternative and pre identified site but even then that alternative site isn't set up as a hospital just waiting to be activated. There is going to be a degraded service for some time while staff and equipment are relocated/sourced.

If you are talking about critical national infrastructure then I would expect a fully ready alternative location to be available 24/7 but nothing we are discussing here fits that definition.

 

[Mojo]

What happens in a crew depot that couldn't be done remotely, assuming systems and processes etc. were set up to work that way?

A driver on Twitter said that he was unable to drive because his license was in his locker and they have to have it at all times.

 

[DJ_K666]

A friend of mine (who is a GB Railfreight manager but ex Southern driver) posted a picture showing the situation.

It was a JCB extendable forklift with a postbox being used as a battering ram.

Looks like no Members' £1 coffees* in Co-Op further foreseeable...


*Are they still doing that?

 

[Robertj21a]

A driver on Twitter said that he was unable to drive because his license was in his locker and they have to have it at all times.

Amazing, an utter lack of common sense somewhere.
If there's a fire, or he just mislays it, I assume he just sits at home for a long while...!!

 

[Magdalia]

Ward 15 is closed due to X ( X being a non contagious reason like a power cut) transfer all patients to other wards and in particular ward 17/19. Refuse admissions for ward 15 specialties until reopened. Redirect patients to St James in Little Snoddlington . Inform Little Snoddlington of our emergency.

That's a business continuity plan, and I'd expect GTR to have a railway equivalent in this case. To be fair, it has been suggested that some drivers were able to sign on at Littlehampton or Bognor Regis. But there was a big impact, RTT suggests that, up to lunchtime, only about a third of trains were running, presumably mostly those crewed by other depots.

well, it is the point. The size of the non-zero risk determines what your mitigation for that risk is.

Size of risk is a dangerous term to use in risk management, because it has two dimensions. A risk can be low probability but still needs to be mitigated because of the impact it might have. I'd regard only being able to run a third of the service as being an impact that needed mitigation.

And probabilities of events are not usually independent, with criminal activity being a good example. The probability of Barnham Co-op being ram raided at some time in the future is now higher because it has already happened once.

 

[island]

A driver on Twitter said that he was unable to drive because his license was in his locker and they have to have it at all times.

That sounds like a self-made problem.

 

[43066]

That sounds like a self-made problem.

It’s technically the correct thing to do. If it was just the license, it’s the sort of thing you might overlook if the goodwill was there, but if your entire bag was in the depot and inaccessible (as it would be for many) you wouldn’t be able to drive.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'd regard only being able to run a third of the service as being an impact that needed mitigation.

Running no services is an outcome that needs mitigation. And the mitigation was to run about a third of the services.

 

[CharlieSpotted]

That's a business continuity plan, and I'd expect GTR to have a railway equivalent in this case. To be fair, it has been suggested that some drivers were able to sign on at Littlehampton or Bognor Regis. But there was a big impact, RTT suggests that, up to lunchtime, only about a third of trains were running, presumably mostly those crewed by other depots.

Interesting to imagine that whilst some might have turned up to work (or been informed prior of the problems going on) and thought "can't work then, might as well bugger off home" whereas others might have thought "OK, how can I work around this?" and made enquiries about booking on elsewhere to start their day. Just human nature, I guess, but interesting.

 

[DarloRich]

Running no services is an outcome that needs mitigation. And the mitigation was to run about a third of the services.

Absolutely- what is a reasonable mitigation to a low probability, high impact risk

(High impact depends on your postion in the hierarchy of course. High impact on local depot, medium impact on company, limited impact on industry)

I'd regard only being able to run a third of the service as being an impact that needed mitigation.

Taking that as a discussion point: What would you propose as a suitable mitigation? You may say there should be a remote, automated sign on back up. I wouldn't disagree but would point out you are then into the realms of having to make a business case for funding based on a low probability/high impact risk. That isn't an easy sell.

 

[pompeyfan]

I can’t imagine an instruction to all crew that they must take kit bags and documents home with them after every shift in the event they had to sign on remotely would be particularly popular or workable either.

 

[Dieseldriver]

That sounds like a self-made problem.

How?

 

[Magdalia]

you are then into the realms of having to make a business case for funding based on a low probability/high impact risk. That isn't an easy sell.

I would have expected it to have been in the business case when they moved in.

 

[skyhigh]

That sounds like a self-made problem.

And if he took it home and his house burnt down he'd get criticism for that too.

 

[43066]

And if he took it home and his house burnt down he'd get criticism for that too.

Turning up at your depot and finding it inaccessible is actually a good day in the office. There was a minor fire at mine not so long ago. Cue lots of network rail types and firemen running around, the least stressed people of all were the traincrew! An early bath for quite a few .

 

[dastocks]

I can’t imagine an instruction to all crew that they must take kit bags and documents home with them after every shift in the event they had to sign on remotely would be particularly popular or workable either.

But that's pretty much the BCP for my employer, although it's less relevant now that most work is done remotely.
- processes are designed to avoid a dependency on an office.
- the requirement for any critical physical documentation is a big no-no (there are other reasons for this).
- if you're in the office when an evacuation alarm sounds you're expected to take any kit you might need to work remotely with you if at all possible.
- everyone has to do a course with annual refreshers.
- when we were in the office there were regular audits: someone would come round and take randomly selected employees through a questionnaire to ensure they knew what to do, and you had to prove you had a BCP hotline number stored in your contacts on a mobile device.

I did see the plan actually work when the fire alarm system for the office complex broke. We were evacuated, they escorted groups of people back in to the building to collect stuff they hadn't been able to take with them during the evacuation, and we worked remotely for a couple of days while a temporary fire detection/alarm system was installed.

 

[skyhigh]

Turning up at your depot and finding it inaccessible is actually a good day in the office. There was a minor fire at mine not so long ago. Cue lots of network rail types and firemen running around, the least stressed people of all were the traincrew! An early bath for quite a few .

Our locker room is in the basement - not that long ago it was flooded. They were a bit funny a while ago with us taking kit bags home and wanted "all company property to be left on company premises when not on duty".

So I turned up to work, booked on and couldn't move a train until I was supplied with the kit as required by the rule book and company instructions.

Oddly enough they didn't make such a fuss about keeping all kit at work afterwards.

 

[43066]

Our locker room is in the basement - not that long ago it was flooded. They were a bit funny a while ago with us taking kit bags home and wanted "all company property to be left on company premises when not on duty".

So I turned up to work, booked on and couldn't move a train until I was supplied with the kit as required by the rule book and company instructions.

Oddly enough they didn't make such a fuss about keeping all kit at work afterwards.

I’ve learned to leave as much as possible there…