What is the Optimum Length of a Heritage Railway?

[Paul Hitchcock]

Would you care to provide an example of where a railway has expanded it's coaching fleet to accommodate an extended line?
At my railway the size of the fleet is set to meet special and commercial events (Thomas, Santa Pullman Dining etc. ) many of which don't operate the full length of the line and "museum" factors in accordance with our charitable aims.

Any railway which has to run extra train sets simply to maintain a reasonable service frequency following an over eager extension, comes in this category.

 

[WAB]

Don't forget that with a maximum of 25mph an increase in mileage has an impact on the number of return journeys that a set of carriages can make each day.

Yes, the WHR has this problem. Two sets can only realistically do 1.5 return journeys a day, and so that meant pre-Covid two round trip departures per day at 0940 and 1255, and a half-way round trip at 1540. Additional carriages, especially Pullmans, toilet and buffet cars don't come cheap for additional sets which may only be used for peaks. Of course, you also have to factor in that if it is more than six carriages long, you need to find another Beyer-Garratt from somewhere which is extremely pricey.

The WHR has reduced its frequency massively from the early days to accommodate the additional length.

 

[PacerTrain142]

I’d say around 5-7 miles is about right, East Lancs Railways and Keighley and Worth Valley Railway fit into this category are a good heritage lines imo.

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

I’d say around 5-7 miles is about right, East Lancs Railways and Keighley and Worth Valley Railway fit into this category are a good heritage lines imo.

+1

 

[PacerTrain142]

I was thinking about this in relation to proposals for tram trains between Bury and Rochdale. The latest proposal is for single track parallel to East Lancashire Railway. Even if this is viable option for health and safety, I am not convinced it would be the best option for ELR. Bury to Rawtenstall is a about ten miles and a 40 minute journey. That sounds optimal and tram trains between Bury and Rochdale would still allow ELR to move rolling stock to and from the national rail network at night. It is different if the alternative is closing reopened track.

I’ve thought in the past that the East Lancs Railway would be very viable to re-open as a normal railway, as Rawtenstall, Ramsbottom, Bury and Heywood are sizeable towns so the line could attract some commuters, especially if they were to provide services into Manchester. The small intermediate stations on the route could be closed or just become request stops. Alternatively it could stay as a heritage line but could operate as a community rail service during the week. They could provide an hourly or half-hourly service using something cheap and cheerful like a pacer or a 153 while running a e heritage service at weekends.

Tbh, I’m surprised the ELR became a heritage line in the first place as it’s not like it’s a rural countryside line in the middle of nowher.

 

[Chester1]

I’ve thought in the past that the East Lancs Railway would be very viable to re-open as a normal railway, as Rawtenstall, Ramsbottom, Bury and Heywood are sizeable towns so the line could attract some commuters, especially if they were to provide services into Manchester. The small intermediate stations on the route could be closed or just become request stops. Alternatively it could stay as a heritage line but could operate as a community rail service during the week. They could provide an hourly or half-hourly service using something cheap and cheerful like a pacer or a 153 while running a e heritage service at weekends.

Tbh, I’m surprised the ELR became a heritage line in the first place as it’s not like it’s a rural countryside line in the middle of nowher.

The business case for commuter services was done about 10 years ago and was poor. Bury is by far the largest market and a train service would be out competed by Metrolink. Since that report TfGM has pushed for tram trains between Bury and Rochdale. Bury to Rawtenstall would be a very good length for ELR, especially if the connection to national network could be retained for empty rolling stock movements.

 

[william.martin]

For me the Severn Valley Railway's 16 miles of track is just perfect, as a person who can easily sit down and look out at the countryside for an hour it suites me well and I still have enough time to stick my head out of the window like a spaniel , if only there timetable was better for the other half of the country (I am one of them) and had earlier full-line Bridgnorth starts, the SVR does not start any diagrams at what used to be there main base in Bridgnorth which means the first train isn't until 12:00.

 

[Cowley]

I’d say around 5-7 miles is about right, East Lancs Railways and Keighley and Worth Valley Railway fit into this category are a good heritage lines imo.

The East Lancs is around 12 miles long.

 

[PacerTrain142]

The business case for commuter services was done about 10 years ago and was poor. Bury is by far the largest market and a train service would be out competed by Metrolink. Since that report TfGM has pushed for tram trains between Bury and Rochdale. Bury to Rawtenstall would be a very good length for ELR, especially if the connection to national network could be retained for empty rolling stock movements.

I’m surprised at that. Because you have quiet lines like Ormskirk to Preston still in operation, yet a commuter route into Manchester was closed. I would have thought there would be quite a few people from Rawtenstall and Ramsbottom who would use it to get into Manchester. As for it being out competed by metrolink, I’m not sure about that because surely heavy rail would be faster than a tram system.

The East Lancs is around 12 miles long.

I didn’t think it was that long. But when I’ve been on it ive usually just been between Rawtenstall and Bury, which is around 30 minutes journey time, very similar to Keighley to Oxenhope on the KWVR.

 

[Chester1]

I’m surprised at that. Because you have quiet lines like Ormskirk to Preston still in operation, yet a commuter route into Manchester was closed. I would have thought there would be quite a few people from Rawtenstall and Ramsbottom who would use it to get into Manchester. As for it being out competed by metrolink, I’m not sure about that because surely heavy rail would be faster than a tram system.

I didn’t think it was that long. But when I’ve been on it ive usually just been between Rawtenstall and Bury, which is around 30 minutes journey time, very similar to Keighley to Oxenhope on the KWVR.

The train would take a less direct route and would only stop in Victoria. While the Metrolink journey time from Bury is slightly longer there is a tram every six minutes and every tram stop in Manchester city centre apart from Exchange Square is served from Bury. The success of the ELR as a herritage railway also hurt the BCR. Its makes a significant economic contribution that would disappear if the line returned to the national network.

Bury to Rawtenstall is 40 minutes but Bury to Heywood is 15 minutes. A 55 minute through journey starts to push the boundaries of acceptable journey time. Plenty of people just do Bury to Rawtenstall return. I like the novelty of the Heywood section but it wouldn't be a great loss if Metrolink took it over for a Bury - Rochdale tram train.

 

[PacerTrain142]

The train would take a less direct route and would only stop in Victoria. While the Metrolink journey time from Bury is slightly longer there is a tram every six minutes and every tram stop in Manchester city centre apart from Exchange Square is served from Bury. The success of the ELR as a herritage railway also hurt the BCR. Its makes a significant economic contribution that would disappear if the line returned to the national network.

Bury to Rawtenstall is 40 minutes but Bury to Heywood is 15 minutes. A 55 minute through journey starts to push the boundaries of acceptable journey time. Plenty of people just do Bury to Rawtenstall return. I like the novelty of the Heywood section but it wouldn't be a great loss if Metrolink took it over for a Bury - Rochdale tram train.

It does but then you have to remember it’s a preserved line so restricted to 25 mph. If it returned to being a national network the speed limit could be greatly increased so journey times would be quicker. I wonder if anyone actually uses the ELR for just getting from A to B rather than a trip out.

 

[Chester1]

It does but then you have to remember it’s a preserved line so restricted to 25 mph. If it returned to being a national network the speed limit could be greatly increased so journey times would be quicker. I wonder if anyone actually uses the ELR for just getting from A to B rather than a trip out.

Sorry my second paragraph related to thread topic. I.e. that Bury - Rawtenstall is around the optimum length for a herritage service.

Rawtenstall to Victoria would be an acceptable journey time but the market is Heywood, Ramsbottom and Rawtenstall to Victoria. Very few people in Bury would choose train over tram for journeys within Greater Manchester. Bury to Victoria is 29 minutes via Metrolink with a turn up and go six minute frequency and a range of well located city centre alternative tram stops to chose from. A hourly or half hourly service taking 20+ minutes to be dropped off at edge of city centre wouldn't be competitive.

 

[Titfield]

I’ve thought in the past that the East Lancs Railway would be very viable to re-open as a normal railway, as Rawtenstall, Ramsbottom, Bury and Heywood are sizeable towns so the line could attract some commuters, especially if they were to provide services into Manchester. The small intermediate stations on the route could be closed or just become request stops. Alternatively it could stay as a heritage line but could operate as a community rail service during the week. They could provide an hourly or half-hourly service using something cheap and cheerful like a pacer or a 153 while running a e heritage service at weekends.

Tbh, I’m surprised the ELR became a heritage line in the first place as it’s not like it’s a rural countryside line in the middle of nowher.

My Dad was one of the very last commuters on the ELR travelling from Bury to Rawtenstall and back each day Monday to Friday. The announcement of the closure was one of the reasons which compelled him to consider moving (it wasnt the only reason) and we moved down to Bournemouth in early 1973.

 

[ac6000cw]

It must help to attract a wider range of passengers (and hence more revenue) if the place at the other end appeals to a wide range of people, not just heritage railway enthusiasts. The North Norfolk from Holt into Sheringham fits that bill very well in summer - a rare example of a steam-hauled park-and ride service...

I also think the NNR has it about right - a long enough return ride for the average customer, interesting places at each end to look around, good scenery and some decent gradients. Yes it's a bit out on a limb in terms of getting to it, but it's a very popular, year round, holiday area so a fair amount of custom comes from people staying in the area.

At the other end of the spectrum, having been to a few galas there, I think the West Somerset Railway is a bit too long, at 20 miles and around 1 hour 25 minutes to ride the whole length.

 

[Krokodil]

The Welsh Highland (at a five hour or so round trip) is very long by UK standards but comparable to many tourist railways in other parts of the world. Durango and Silverton for example will take more than nine hours. Chemin de fer du Vivarais takes seven hours. Shorter trips on each are available of course, but the same applies to the WHR where it's trains run only half of the distance.

 

[Dave S 56F]

I’d say around 5-7 miles is about right, East Lancs Railways and Keighley and Worth Valley Railway fit into this category are a good heritage lines imo.

East lancs is 12 miles from Rawtenstall to Heywood but actually to castleton N.R. jct its 13 miles K.V.W.R. is 4 and 3 quarter miles not quite 5 miles.

 

[simonw]

I’ve thought in the past that the East Lancs Railway would be very viable to re-open as a normal railway, as Rawtenstall, Ramsbottom, Bury and Heywood are sizeable towns so the line could attract some commuters, especially if they were to provide services into Manchester. The small intermediate stations on the route could be closed or just become request stops. Alternatively it could stay as a heritage line but could operate as a community rail service during the week. They could provide an hourly or half-hourly service using something cheap and cheerful like a pacer or a 153 while running a e heritage service at weekends.

Tbh, I’m surprised the ELR became a heritage line in the first place as it’s not like it’s a rural countryside line in the middle of nowher.

I believe that there was council support for it opening as a heritage line as a way of helping regenerate the areas it runs through.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

East lancs is 12 miles from Rawtenstall to Heywood but actually to castleton N.R. jct its 13 miles.

Does any visitor ever normally get to ride the ELR beyond Heywood?

 

[12C]

Does any visitor ever normally get to ride the ELR beyond Heywood?

Very rarely and only on a charter. I did it on a tour with 40145 from Carnforth about 9 years ago, not sure if there have been any more since.

 

[railfan99]

I also think the NNR has it about right - a long enough return ride for the average customer, interesting places at each end to look around, good scenery and some decent gradients. Yes it's a bit out on a limb in terms of getting to it, but it's a very popular, year round, holiday area so a fair amount of custom comes from people staying in the area.

At the other end of the spectrum, having been to a few galas there, I think the West Somerset Railway is a bit too long, at 20 miles and around 1 hour 25 minutes to ride the whole length.

Travelling on NNR late last year, the volunteers said the majority of patronage originates at Holt as 'parking is easier.'

Coming from elsewhere, where parking is rarely a problem, I was surprised, but very evident. Presumably Sheringham has limited parking in the town centre (I lacked time to explore).

WSR may be too long for younger children, but quite a few alight or board at Watchet (history and boat harbour) and Blue Anchor (beach). Minehead is a drawcard (I stayed overnight). At Dunster one morning I alighted ex Minehead and walked uphill via the creek/river and Dunster Steep to the excellent castle, well worth visiting - wish I'd had longer. The line is not bereft of intermediate station attractions.

 

[Kilopylae]

The WSR has to be one of the longest. As a kid, I loved it - we used to take it back from Butlins Minehead to Taunton (or technically to Bishop's Lidyeard to meet the bus) - and I particularly enjoyed the fact it was long enough to be a 'real journey'; we were using it unironically as a genuine mode of transport, not just an amusement.

One advantage of that was getting to use the luggage car, which I was also once able to do on the Peterborough Nene Valley Railway (returning from the holiday inn express to the NR station), much to the guard's pleasant surprise!

 

[railfan99]

One advantage of that was getting to use the luggage car, which I was also once able to do on the Peterborough Nene Valley Railway (returning from the holiday inn express to the NR station), much to the guard's pleasant surprise!

i also had my suitcase on the morning train from Minehead to Dunster, left at the station while I visited the Castle. But I just carried it on to the next up, 1228 hours from Dunster to Bishops Lydeard.

This year I must use the luggage area on some preserved railways if the case is with me!

 

[Jamesrob637]

Regardless of the length, I want a gradient so that the locos have to do some work in one direction.

Ideally, the length should be sufficient to buy and drink a pint between departure and arrival. Say 8-10 miles. While I love the KWVR (local bias) it would be great if the distances between the stations could be doubled.

For gradients, try the Churnet Valley Railway. 1 in 40 for a considerable distance.

 

[LUYMun]

Indeed although the rail shuttles finished several years before the line was truncated. Not really a siding - still a main line used by many freight trains for HS2 construction.

It has been suggested to reopen the station to mainline services as part of East West Rail's Aylesbury branch. I'd probably think Quainton Road would end up a similar layout to Smallbrook Junction (only open during museum times and the platforms take passengers straight to booking office). That might certainly help provide public transport connection to an otherwise isolated site.

 

[12LDA28C]

It has been suggested to reopen the station to mainline services as part of East West Rail's Aylesbury branch. I'd probably think Quainton Road would end up a similar layout to Smallbrook Junction (only open during museum times and the platforms take passengers straight to booking office). That might certainly help provide public transport connection to an otherwise isolated site.

Of course the EWR Aylesbury branch has been postponed indefinitely and may well not happen at all, despite local business and council support. Even if it does happen, I'd be very surprised if Quainton regained a passenger service given the small size of the village, even on event days.

 

[chrisp37]

We did the full length of the WHR from Porthmadog to Caernarfon and return (the "Harbourmaster" service) last September. The time really flew by and I loved every minute of it. Even my partner, who tolerates, but does not share, my rail obsession, didn't get bored (not that she admitted anyway). I think it's just so lovely that it's very easy to sit there and enjoy the scenery for 5 hours. Would have liked slightly more time in Caernarfon but maybe that's not feasible. I would have gladly gone straight back on it the next day!

 

[D6130]

For gradients, try the Churnet Valley Railway. 1 in 40 for a considerable distance.

Isn't there a short section of 1 in 27 on the climb from Leekbrook Junction to Ipstone?

 

[BRX]

I like heritage railways where you can feel you've done a "real" journey in some sense. Length is important but so is what's at either end. Ideal to me is a junction station with NR at one end and an actual town at the other. Quite a lot of heritage railways end at a stop in the middle of some fields somewhere, at a station that never existed in its real life as a terminus. This always destroys the illusion somewhat.

I'd say there are quite a few examples of railways where an extension of a mile or two would be quite transformational because it would bring the line back to a meaningful destination - rather than because it would allow a longer running time. Of course I'm aware of the reasons why these "last mile" extensions are often very difficult to achieve.

 

[chrisp37]

I like heritage railways where you can feel you've done a "real" journey in some sense. Length is important but so is what's at either end. Ideal to me is a junction station with NR at one end and an actual town at the other. Quite a lot of heritage railways end at a stop in the middle of some fields somewhere, at a station that never existed in its real life as a terminus. This always destroys the illusion somewhat.

I'd say there are quite a few examples of railways where an extension of a mile or two would be quite transformational because it would bring the line back to a meaningful destination - rather than because it would allow a longer running time. Of course I'm aware of the reasons why these "last mile" extensions are often very difficult to achieve.

On a related note, I do hope GWR re-introduce the Taunton to Bishops Lydeard shuttle that they previously trialled (2019 I think). I saw an article from last year that it was under consideration but don't know how likely it is that it'll happen any time soon. I do much prefer it when you can reach a heritage railway entirely by rail, e.g. Bluebell, Watercress, Bodmin, Isle of Wight.

 

[duffield]

On a related note, I do hope GWR re-introduce the Taunton to Bishops Lydeard shuttle that they previously trialled (2019 I think). I saw an article from last year that it was under consideration but don't know how likely it is that it'll happen any time soon. I do much prefer it when you can reach a heritage railway entirely by rail, e.g. Bluebell, Watercress, Bodmin, Isle of Wight.

Same here. Though I don't mind if it includes a short hike across town to the heritage station (e.g. Loughborough (Midland) to Loughborough Central) since that invokes the important heritage aspect of rival companies with their own stations, and you get to see a bit of the local area.

Of course you get both versions on the Spa Valley railway - cross-platform interchange at Eridge and cross-town at Tunbridge Wells.