What is the point of Gatwick Express anymore?

[jimbo99]

HEx had that. Additional security was indeed a barrier, but also how far in advance it was necessary to do it (plus the additional risk of misrouteing), and also the move to trolley luggage which is really no effort to pull around also limited its effectiveness - who still lugs around large non-wheeled suitcases? I haven't seen one for years.

ISTR having done it once at the Kuala Lumpur version years ago, which also no longer exists.
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Missed this - I stand corrected - I thought it was no longer available. I have used it years ago.

Also you can check your luggage in at the station in Hong Kong and I have done this a number of times, most recently last month. A very nice express service. Also not really non-stop, running: Asiaworld Expo - Airport - Tsing Yi - Kowloon - Hong Kong. But no real commuter traffic though.

 

[edwin_m]

For a brief period you could check in at Paddington (for Heathrow) though I don't know whether you could dump your bags as well?

To expand on previous postings, yes you could. The check-in was in the Lawn area of Paddington and baggage was loaded into lockable trolleys (solid walls not mesh) and taken to the country end of the trains, via a tunnel I think. The trolley was wheeled bodily through the first set of doors and parked in area behind the cab, which was reserved for baggage. The Heathrow stations had the corresponding area barriered off with (I think) a baggage lift immediately adjacent. The baggage was treated as landside, only X-rayed after arrival at Heathrow, probably meaning security precautions weren't as severe as they would otherwise have to be.

The 460s on Gatwick Express also had a baggage car, like the push-pull sets before them. However this was at the London end meaning that baggage handling at Victoria clashed with the flow of passengers to and from the rest of the train. I don't think there was a baggage check-in at Victoria in that era.

 

[yorksrob]

I did the same on Saturday. It was my first time on a 442, and it was indeed fairly pleasant for a trip to Brighton. But as a brand... Gatwick Express just doesn't make sense. Heathrow and Stansted make sense as they're on branches which trains would otherwise bypass, but given Gatwick's on the main line, there seems no point.

Of course, perhaps the end solution is to transfer GatEx to Thameslink - run non-stop from Gatwick to London Bridge and from St Pancras to Luton Airport Parkway. Clearly this would be a useful and worthwhile service.

Yes, I think it's worth having the express (particularly to Brighton, as there has always been one, even if it used to stop at Croydon, rather than the airport). Perhaps the problem is having a separate fares structure which might put off some of the people you want to remove from the other trains.

 

[hwl]

Use your Oyster to E Croydon and then a Thameslink only paper ticket the rest of the way and it's cheaper again. It really is very cheap to get out there if you know what you're doing.

Indeed or since oyster all the way to Gatwick just break the journey at East Croydon ticket barriers to get the best southern fares.

 

[Deepgreen]

Yes, I think it's worth having the express (particularly to Brighton, as there has always been one, even if it used to stop at Croydon, rather than the airport). Perhaps the problem is having a separate fares structure which might put off some of the people you want to remove from the other trains.

That doesn't require a separate brand/'semi-TOC' and all the complications that seem to go with it, it just requires trains that stop at, say, Gatwick and Brighton only.

 

[yorksrob]

That doesn't require a separate brand/'semi-TOC' and all the complications that seem to go with it, it just requires trains that stop at, say, Gatwick and Brighton only.

No it doesn't, although you might want to differentiate it in some way to attract more people from the stoppers, just not in terms of fares.

Gatwick express has always been a bit different from other InterCity type services, as it has always needed to act as a bit of a relief for the rest of the line (hence all other Victoria services shown as terminating at Clapham) rather than just a "premium".

Perhaps they need to price it slightly cheaper to draw people off of the other trains.

 

[coppercapped]

To expand on previous postings, yes you could. The check-in was in the Lawn area of Paddington and baggage was loaded into lockable trolleys (solid walls not mesh) and taken to the country end of the trains, via a tunnel I think.

Yes, there was a tunnel at least in part built specially for the HEx service. There used to be a subway connecting the Paddington platforms partway along their length, this tunnel cut the subway which then was taken out of use.

 

[Kentish Paul]

Also you can check your luggage in at the station in Hong Kong and I have done this a number of times, most recently last month. A very nice express service. Also not really non-stop, running: Asiaworld Expo - Airport - Tsing Yi - Kowloon - Hong Kong. But no real commuter traffic though.

My last holiday in Barbados (2008) you could check in your luggage after breakfast in the hotel. This was with Virgin. Very smooth, hotel to cab to airport to plane.

 

[Deepgreen]

My last holiday in Barbados (2008) you could check in your luggage after breakfast in the hotel. This was with Virgin. Very smooth, hotel to cab to airport to plane.

So no railway involved then?

 

[JB_B]

It's busy today because of industrial action by Southern guards - they are running a skeleton service

( also @IKB and @cjmillsnun )

OP said this was a "couple of weeks ago" - I'm not aware of any industrial action then - sounds just like a normal day on Gatex to me

 

[cjmillsnun]

On the way back today, had to fight my way on a FIVE coach train at peak time which had clearly come from somewhere else first. It's sold as a specific airport service for which you pay a small premium, but if anyone can use it why bother with the Gatwick Express brand, just roll the services into Southern's normal brand. It feels like a con.

( also @IKB and @cjmillsnun )

OP said this was a "couple of weeks ago" - I'm not aware of any industrial action then - sounds just like a normal day on Gatex to me

The outbound was a couple of weeks ago, the return was yesterday

 

[JB_B]

The outbound was a couple of weeks ago, the return was yesterday

Oops - so it was - good point.

 

[nlogax]

Also you can check your luggage in at the station in Hong Kong and I have done this a number of times, most recently last month. A very nice express service. Also not really non-stop, running: Asiaworld Expo - Airport - Tsing Yi - Kowloon - Hong Kong. But no real commuter traffic though.

Indeed, checking in at HK Stn is incredibly useful. It's also a beautiful trip into HK or out to the airport first thing in the morning. Very scenic and a neat way to get an idea of the geography of the place. Can't say Croydon or Purley fill me with the same sense of serenity

Back to the main point (ish), I also find it curious that DfT have extended Oyster to Gatwick services but that usage on Heathrow Connect is limited to Hayes & Harlington while Express services don't allow it at all. What's the rationale behind that, I wonder?

 

[Wolfie]

Back to the main point (ish), I also find it curious that DfT have extended Oyster to Gatwick services but that usage on Heathrow Connect is limited to Hayes & Harlington while Express services don't allow it at all. What's the rationale behind that, I wonder?

Off topic but I will answer...

The tunnel from Hayes & Harlington to Heathrow was built, and is still owned, by Heathrow airport. They have chosen not to allow Oyster on that section... if it ever was allowed you better believe that it would not be normal Z6 prices....

 

[antharro]

I had a very pleasant journey on GX between London and Brighton the other day. We were able to use a Network card. The 442's provided a good travelling environment as well, so as an express to the coast l found it very handy.

I did the same on Saturday. It was my first time on a 442, and it was indeed fairly pleasant for a trip to Brighton.

While I'm happy that the 442s are still providing a decent travelling experience, there is a part of me that remembers how they used to be in SWT days, before they were "refurbished" (ruined) by Southern and wants to just shout "but their interiors are crap and uncomfortable now"!

Of course, perhaps the end solution is to transfer GatEx to Thameslink - run non-stop from Gatwick to London Bridge and from St Pancras to Luton Airport Parkway. Clearly this would be a useful and worthwhile service.

Could be called the Airports Express. But would it get a clear enough run through central London to make it worthwhile, or would it just sit behind slows all the way through and sit at platforms waiting for a green signal while people on the platform swear about a half empty train sitting in front of them that they can't use... And more importantly, would it justify taking up a path of a train that could provide another service for all the stations the Express will pass through? Capacity is finite, and I don't know if connecting Gatwick and Luton is justification enough. But then I'm not a railway planner.

 

[sarahj]

While I'm happy that the 442s are still providing a decent travelling experience, there is a part of me that remembers how they used to be in SWT days, before they were "refurbished" (ruined) by Southern and wants to just shout "but their interiors are crap and uncomfortable now"!

Wait until it's only the 387's and their joke seats and first class. Though they do have more luggage space and wi-fi* (and that's why drivers should be happy working them 12 car doo )

 

[urpert]

I doubt anybody wants to shell out for a 'premium' service if it is indistinguishable from the regular service trains on that route.

But in general terms, travelling by the train to the airport remains very popular. A substantial proportion of those of working age in London (in their 20s & 30s especially) are renters who don't have a car. What are the alternatives?

Coaches are slow but cheap (1 hr 20 from Victoria coach station, £8+). A cab will can cost you £100. Londoners (or those from outside London) using the Long Stay car park will pay £80+ for a weeks storage (+fuel obviously).

I think the £15-£18 fare for a 30-40 minute Southern/GatEx rail journey is still the best offering.

It's also worth noting that Gatwick is uniquely badly connected by road to pretty much any part of London (because of the M23 never having been finished). Even Croydon can take 45 minutes or more by road.

 

[JamesTT]

Here is a little video from when southern took over.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FJP8QgNbZ4

[youtube]FJP8QgNbZ4[/youtube]
Only the driver left now methinks

Haven't they started to reintroduce train hosts?

 

[Taunton]

The original service started in 1958 had the best idea, which was a unit attached to the back (down) or front (up) of an 8-car Horsham service, which was coupled/uncoupled at the airport (shunter could do either in about 30 seconds, unlike the interminable time "modern" couplings require), and waited there for the return service. Train carried a good load through to London, dedicated coaches for airport passengers, and a formation suited to the passenger load. It also just had normal fares. Originally in 1958 it used the half-dozen 2-HAL that had been built postwar with SUB bodies, using the government funds for rolling stock destroyed in the war. Later as traffic built up a 4-VEP, and then the 4-VEG ones with interiors adapted for luggage.

 

[yorksrob]

While I'm happy that the 442s are still providing a decent travelling experience, there is a part of me that remembers how they used to be in SWT days, before they were "refurbished" (ruined) by Southern and wants to just shout "but their interiors are crap and uncomfortable now"!

.

True, they're never going to be in the same league as a 1964 CIG in terms of comfort, for example, but the seating seems better than a lot of current long distance trains in my experience, and the issues about door width seem over-exaggerated to me , given that the mk2's, VEG's and HAL's of previous incarnations seemed to have served the market perfectly well through most of it's existance.

 

[Frontera2]

It does seem to be something of an anachronism these days.

The rise of budget airlines (I believe Easyjet alone now accounts for over 40% of LGW's annual aircraft movements) and, as noted above, the loss of the lucrative North Atlantic air traffic, must have changed the profile of passenger using the airport greatly over the past couple of decades.

How many of Gatwick's present day passengers will be willing to shell out a premium rail fare to get to the airport? Very few, I imagine.

You've taken the words right out of my mouth. The passenger profile has certainly changed from Gatwick, with the number of "proper" airlines / flights reducing considerably and the low-cost boys have largely taken over the business / short haul market.

If you're too tight / price sensitive to pay BA or other full service airline fares, you're unlikely to shell out a premium to get to the airport. Just look at the demographics on Heathrow Express,. You don't get many customers on there who are jetting off for a week in Benidorm.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Haven't they started to reintroduce train hosts?

Here's an idea, they could call them "guards" and have them operate the...oh, never mind.
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While I'm happy that the 442s are still providing a decent travelling experience, there is a part of me that remembers how they used to be in SWT days, before they were "refurbished" (ruined) by Southern and wants to just shout "but their interiors are crap and uncomfortable now"! *

Agreed that that is an appalling attempt at a refurb, they couldn't even be bothered to clean the filth off the aircon grilles.

They should have been done to the high standard of the GWR HST or ATW Mk3.

 

[edwin_m]

Could be called the Airports Express. But would it get a clear enough run through central London to make it worthwhile, or would it just sit behind slows all the way through and sit at platforms waiting for a green signal while people on the platform swear about a half empty train sitting in front of them that they can't use... And more importantly, would it justify taking up a path of a train that could provide another service for all the stations the Express will pass through? Capacity is finite, and I don't know if connecting Gatwick and Luton is justification enough. But then I'm not a railway planner.

From a demand point of view there's absolutely no reason to connect Gatwick and Luton airports with a train service, since virtually nobody will be interlining between flights and other than that they are no different to any other two suburban stations.

Operationally speaking, a Thameslink "Airports Express" could provide airport access from a range of central London stations using half as many paths as two separate Airports Expresses would. However it would also take up scarce paths through the Thameslink core, and would probably have to be a 700 with an unsuitable interior like all other future Thameslink services. For the passenger the only benefit over using a normal Thameslink Brighton or Bedford service is missing a couple of intermediate stations.

I suspect also the operator wouldn't want to encourage any more passengers with heavy luggage to use the Thameslink core stations where dwell times will be so critical. At least at Victoria there is plenty of time to board, as there would be at St Pancras (except when they're trying to emulate Euston) under Luton's apparent assumption that EMT will provide them a fast service at 15min intervals.

 

[yorksrob]

Here's an idea, they could call them "guards" and have them operate the...oh, never mind.
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Agreed that that is an appalling attempt at a refurb, they couldn't even be bothered to clean the filth off the aircon grilles.

They should have been done to the high standard of the GWR HST or ATW Mk3.

The real mistake of the refurb was getting rid of the compartments and buffet (although I noticed when walking through that the first class saloon seemed to be superior to what passes for first on most of the Southern region these days).

 

[Mikey C]

The real mistake of the refurb was getting rid of the compartments and buffet (although I noticed when walking through that the first class saloon seemed to be superior to what passes for first on most of the Southern region these days).

But then the buffet is hardly needed on the routes they operate on now, whereas Weymouth is up to 3 hours from London...
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True, they're never going to be in the same league as a 1964 CIG in terms of comfort, for example, but the seating seems better than a lot of current long distance trains in my experience, and the issues about door width seem over-exaggerated to me , given that the mk2's, VEG's and HAL's of previous incarnations seemed to have served the market perfectly well through most of it's existance.

Door width becomes an issue if causes delays on the platforms, and with more and more passengers and trains operating through Gatwick is much more important now.

Accessibility standards are different now as well.

 

[jopsuk]

Quite. When the mark 1 bases stock, and even mark 2 and mark 3s, were built the approximate attitude towards accessibility was "sod it".

 

[yorksrob]

But then the buffet is hardly needed on the routes they operate on now, whereas Weymouth is up to 3 hours from London...
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Door width becomes an issue if causes delays on the platforms, and with more and more passengers and trains operating through Gatwick is much more important now.

Accessibility standards are different now as well.

Well, bung a 455 on there instead to sort out all your door issues for Gatwick package holiday makers. Leave the fast paths and the quality stock to those of us going to the coast.

 

[rmt4ever]

As some on here know, I have had my fair share of rows with GatEx. But generally I will still use them.

The reason being that it is quieter and more suitable for the airport. As someone who lives in London and generally goes on Holiday via Gatwick, we get better fares than tourists who arrive and travel to London. I.E some of the discounted tickets are only for Victoria-Airport return rather than the other way around.

So me and the Mrs going on Holiday in June got Anytime Open Return GatEx tickets with the group discount for just shy of £40. Not bad really, and about half price of using the Oyster or Contactless on the same journeys.

I used to do 1st on the GatEx as the seating was great, and catering/refreshments most welcome. Though no apparently the seating is crap on the new trains and no refreshments any more, would never bother with this again.

Also would always avoid the Brighton train and if that was next goto the Witherspoon upstairs for a quick pint and wait for the next airport only service for a quieter train.

Travelling last year in December the GatEx was half service due to engineering, then a train was cancelled due to no driver, so had to take the Southern service which stopped a couple of times before the airport. It wasn't so much the journey time or stops but the fact the place was packed and was a struggle to find luggage space.

That is why I do and always will be happy to pay extra for a dedicated airport express train. Just convenience.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Well, bung a 455 on there instead to sort out all your door issues for Gatwick package holiday makers. Leave the fast paths and the quality stock to those of us going to the coast.

They're doing that. They're putting Leccystars on the route.

 

[yorksrob]

They're doing that. They're putting Leccystars on the route.

Perhaps the real issue has been the lack of a decent express service to Brighton all along - sorted by the 442's.

Of course, I don't see a problem with stopping for the Freddie Laker Brigade at Gatwick, as long as they don't start forcing ridiculous demands, such as suburban door layouts on express services.