What is your controversial railway opinion/idea?

[Groningen]

If you want a railwayfranchise and want to pay too much (looking back), than deal with the consequences.

 

[al78]

HS2 will not only benefit London - Birmingham travel, but will benefit those traveling on routes like Southampton - Manchester (especially if the Southern Approach to Heathrow is built and direct trains between Woking and OOC). Each route may not generate much traffic, however there's likely to be quite a long list that there's quite a lot of stations within one or two changes at each end of a HS2 journey where HS2 would improve the journey time (especially as it's likely to increase frequenties when compared with XC and avoid the need to fight across London on the underground). Therefore the combined total could be quite significant, which is often overlooked by those opposed to HS2.

I have a feeling it will come down to whether or not there is a premium price for using HS2 as part or for a whole journey, like the Gatwick Express. If HS2 permitted fares are ramped up just because it is seen as a premium service, that will restrict demand.

 

[fowler9]

Once Lime Street reopens give Northern two weeks and if they don't stop cancelling everything go back to rail replacement bus for a while. May take longer but at least I know it will turn up when it's meant to.

 

[Bobdogs]

Single tickets should be half the price of walk up return tickets.

Reopening Carmarthen to Aberystwyth is a brilliant idea. The 2 intermediate towns of Lampeter and Tregaron (populations 3000 and 1200 respectively) will definitely ensure that the proposed schedule of 1 train every 90 minutes will be crammed. If it opened in my lifetime, I, and many other concessionary pass holders will undoubtedly prefer to pay an exorbitant fare rather than waste half an hour of our lives travelling for free on an excellent hourly T1 omnibus.

 

[Parallel]

Single tickets should be half the price of walk up return tickets.

Reopening Carmarthen to Aberystwyth is a brilliant idea. The 2 intermediate towns of Lampeter and Tregaron (populations 3000 and 1200 respectively) will definitely ensure that the proposed schedule of 1 train every 90 minutes will be crammed. If it opened in my lifetime, I, and many other concessionary pass holders will undoubtedly prefer to pay an exorbitant fare rather than waste half an hour of our lives travelling for free on an excellent hourly T1 omnibus.

I would also use Carmarthen to Aberystwyth as I live in SW England, and it’d likely be the fastest and cheapest way. I also have friends from Cardiff that would use it too. Currently they get the train to Carmarthen, then bus.

 

[vlad]

I don't know if that's a controversial opinion, but it's certainly an interesting one. Feel free to expand on it any time you're ready.

I didn't realise we had to explain our opinions in this thread - I thought we were just making sweeping statements.

The simple answer is that Beeching was appointed by the BRB and told to save money, hence the writing of his report. However, he didn't have the authority to put what he'd written into practice: the Government had to do that. He did put forward ideas like integrated transport which were ignored.

In the 1964 election Labour campaigned that they'd stop the rail cuts if elected, which is something they reneged on. Castle was Minister for Transport from 1965 so she was right in the thick of things.

Do you want me to explain why I like Pacers now?

 

[fowler9]

Once Lime Street reopens South Parkway should keep the portaloos.

 

[squizzler]

Want a controversial opinion? Fasten your seat belts!

Many rail enthusiasts and contributors to this forum resent the success of the railways over the last quarter century. Probably many of them felt an affinity with the state of railways during the period of retrenchment. These contributors now gleefully pounce on any bad news as evidence we will have another "Beeching" which will return them to the comfortable feeling of victimhood that they aspire to return to.

Ironically the motor trade suffers declining sales particularly of young motorists, and the image of technical competence spoiled by "diesel gate" and failure to market electric cars. These same forum contributors who have become disillusioned by the success of the rail industry likely have a new underdog to champion and this is probably why so many on here are now rooting in favour of motorcar investment over that for rail!

 

[Rail Blues]

Many rail enthusiasts and contributors to this forum resent the success of the railways over the last quarter century. Probably many of them felt an affinity with the state of railways during the period of retrenchment. These contributors now gleefully pounce on any bad news as evidence we will have another "Beeching" which will return them to the comfortable feeling of victimhood that they aspire to return to.

Leaving aside the privitisation debate which IMO has had little to do with the upswing in passenger numbers, I agree with the broad thrust of your post.

I think it is a mistake calling them rail enthusiasts though, rail nostalgists is probably a better description. To me being an enthusiast involves a recognition and belief in the possibilities of what the railway might be like in the future and how they can be improved as a system of mass transportation.

 

[Fearless]

Leaving aside the privitisation debate which IMO has had little to do with the upswing in passenger numbers, I agree with the broad thrust of your post.

I think it is a mistake calling them rail enthusiasts though, rail nostalgists is probably a better description. To me being an enthusiast involves a recognition and belief in the possibilities of what the railway might be like in the future and how they can be improved as a system of mass transportation.

Great point, Rail Blues. Those of us who consider ourselves both nostalgists and enthusiasts might be nostalgic for practicalities that made rail travel so much more pleasurable than it is now: when West Country to Scotland services had 8 coaches instead of 4, for example, and when you could travel on those services for several hours without risking a DVT (and I mean deep vein thrombosis, not driving van trailer) as you do on Voyagers whose seats are too high, too upright, and digging into the back of your leg. All these little things add up to unpleasant travelling. So often I've heard people say that modern rolling stock is the TOC's subtle way of putting people off travelling as a way of coping with the increased numbers wanting to travel.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Preserved railway lines should focus exclusively on steam. Diesel locos are not worth preserving as they have no aesthetic or emotional appeal and few, outside of a handful of cranks, have any interest in them.

 

[Fearless]

Preserved railway lines should focus exclusively on steam. Diesel locos are not worth preserving as they have no aesthetic or emotional appeal and few, outside of a handful of cranks, have any interest in them.

Presumably your tongue is firmly in your cheek?!

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Presumably your tongue is firmly in your cheek?!

No - check the thread title and bear in mind that the vast majority of people who actually travel on preserved lines (as opposed to photograph them) are families, not enthusiasts!

 

[Rail Blues]

Great point, Rail Blues. Those of us who consider ourselves both nostalgists and enthusiasts might be nostalgic for practicalities that made rail travel so much more pleasurable than it is now: when West Country to Scotland services had 8 coaches instead of 4, for example, and when you could travel on those services for several hours without risking a DVT (and I mean deep vein thrombosis, not driving van trailer) as you do on Voyagers whose seats are too high, too upright, and digging into the back of your leg. All these little things add up to unpleasant travelling. So often I've heard people say that modern rolling stock is the TOC's subtle way of putting people off travelling as a way of coping with the increased numbers wanting to travel.

Interesting.

It might be a generational thing or personal preference, but I find voyagers a largely agreeable way to travel. Seats I find perfectly comfortable (on the proviso that I'm not too close to the loo) far more so that those in Mk4s, much like I find mk3s rough riding and squeaky. I suppose the intended trade off from the shorter trains on cross country was increased frequency. I know that demand has now far out paced capacity, but I'd rather stand for part of a journey that have to hang around the station for a hour or so, doubly so if I'm traveling for work. Pleasure doesn't really come into it, 9 times out of 10, I just want to get home and to bed as quickly as possible.

 

[Fearless]

No - check the thread title and bear in mind that the vast majority of people who actually travel on preserved lines (as opposed to photograph them) are families, not enthusiasts!

Controversial, okay, but offensive, no! Crank? I'm insulted. Live and let live, my friend!

 

[Fearless]

Interesting.

It might be a generational thing or personal preference, but I find voyagers a largely agreeable way to travel. Seats I find perfectly comfortable (on the proviso that I'm not too close to the loo) far more so that those in Mk4s, much like I find mk3s rough riding and squeaky. I suppose the intended trade off from the shorter trains on cross country was increased frequency. I know that demand has now far out paced capacity, but I'd rather stand for part of a journey that have to hang around the station for a hour or so, doubly so if I'm traveling for work. Pleasure doesn't really come into it, 9 times out of 10, I just want to get home and to bed as quickly as possible.

Try standing from Bristol to Edinburgh. Or being a short person with little legs. I once saw a child having a panic attack on the platform because the train (4 cars, Paignton to Dundee) was so jammed that she was too terrified to board it. We were meant to have increased service, as you say, but where's the crew to operate them? Too many footplate crew took early retirement when they could.

 

[SteveM70]

That Pacers shouldn’t be withdrawn when Northern’s new trains finally arrive

They’re mechanically reasonably sound, relatively fuel efficient because they’re so light, and presumably (or could be in the future) cheap to lease because their asset value is very low

Then keep them just for use to strengthen peak time services, always joined to a disability compliant 15x unit so at “overall train” level access is maintained for all

In short, I’d rather sit on a pacer then stand in the vestibule of a 15x; I’d rather stand on a pacer than be left on the platform, etc etc

 

[backontrack]

OK, I've already had a go on here, but I've got more opinions!

- Not only is HS2 a good idea, it should be the start of a backbone of high-speed rail across the UK:
- HS3 Hull to Liverpool via York, Leeds & Manchester
- HS4 Leeds to Edinburgh
- HS5 Leeds to London direct (relieving ECML)

Makes it a twin triangle network, with London, B'ham, Leeds & Manchester at the apexes. Plus extensions out.

Never mind the capital cost, it should be considered basic infrastructure for productivity in this country. Relief for existing lines is a major part of the justification as well.

Hardly controversial I think we'd all love to see that happen.

Throw in Manchester-Sheffield via Woodhead and you're on.

 

[squizzler]

Leaving aside the privitisation debate which IMO has had little to do with the upswing in passenger numbers, I agree with the broad thrust of your post.

I think it is a mistake calling them rail enthusiasts though, rail nostalgists is probably a better description. To me being an enthusiast involves a recognition and belief in the possibilities of what the railway might be like in the future and how they can be improved as a system of mass transportation.

note I never mentioned privatisation in my post. Clearly you made the link between privatisation and growing passenger numbers of the last quarter century, not me, and I don't think you are alone, even amongst those who dislike privatisation! Time to reflect this in my controversial opinion:

Of those who want to recreate British rail, many (not all!) are miserablists who are still uncomfortable with the success of today's railway and want to drag us all back to their comfort zone Reshaping plan era blub-fest rather than bask with the newer generation of enthusiast in the light of a dynamic, confident and expansive rail industry!

 

[backontrack]

Of those who want to recreate British rail, many (not all!) are miserablists who are still uncomfortable with the success of today's railway and want to drag us all back to their comfort zone Reshaping plan era blub-fest rather than bask with the newer generation of enthusiast in the light of a dynamic, confident and expansive rail industry!

I also think that there's many of these who support a privatised network yet are still anti-expansion 'miserablists', and that they look down on supporters of nationalisation in the same way that they look down on those who support expansion.

(I support both BTW)

 

[CaptainHaddock]

If you're going to build HS2, stop wasting years with studies, consultations and public enquiries and just get on with it! If this were Japan, HS2 would be up and running by now.

 

[EM2]

No debates!

 

[Rail Blues]

Of those who want to recreate British rail, many (not all!) are miserablists who are still uncomfortable with the success of today's railway and want to drag us all back to their comfort zone

I don't want to recreate BR, that moment passed when Labour reneged on their promises to renationalise in 1997. A railway in public ownership need not be on the monolithic BR model.

 

[Rail Blues]

No debates!

Here is one: starting a thread doesn't give you a right to police a thread. It is a thread on a public forum, if you want to start dictating how the thread develops, set up and fund your own website.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

I don't want to recreate BR, that moment passed when Labour reneged on their promises to renationalise in 1997. A railway in public ownership need not be on the monolithic BR model.

Of course there's no need to re-create British Rail. We can leave running the system to those civil servants at the DfT. They've proved time and time again how competent they are.

 

[yorksrob]

note I never mentioned privatisation in my post. Clearly you made the link between privatisation and growing passenger numbers of the last quarter century, not me, and I don't think you are alone, even amongst those who dislike privatisation! Time to reflect this in my controversial opinion:

Of those who want to recreate British rail, many (not all!) are miserablists who are still uncomfortable with the success of today's railway and want to drag us all back to their comfort zone Reshaping plan era blub-fest rather than bask with the newer generation of enthusiast in the light of a dynamic, confident and expansive rail industry!

If only we could have a much expanded network for the 21'st century, but with BR era rolling stock, that would be perfect !

 

[yorksrob]

If you're going to build HS2, stop wasting years with studies, consultations and public enquiries and just get on with it! If this were Japan, HS2 would be up and running by now.

Exactly - but substitute HS2 with various reopening schemes.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Here is one: starting a thread doesn't give you a right to police a thread. It is a thread on a public forum, if you want to start dictating how the thread develops, set up and fund your own website.

Alternatively, if you wish to go against the wishes of the OP then don't have a pop at him; start your own thread instead, where you can debate why your opinion is controversial for as long as you like!

 

[tbtc]

Controversial Opinion?

This thread was a lot more fun/ interesting/ revealing, before the usual suspects started turning it into yet another thread where we debate nationalisation etc - this thread is much better when people pop up with their two penn'orth and move on.

Credit to @EM2 for a great idea!

 

[Rail Blues]

standing from Bristol to Edinburgh. Or being a short person with little legs. I once saw a child having a panic attack on the platform because the train (4 cars, Paignton to Dundee) was so jammed that she was too terrified to board it.

I regularly stood from Liverpool to Euston or rode in the guards van as a child, this was in the BR era, so let's not kid ourselves overcrowded trains are a recent phenomenon.

I am also 172cm hardly a giant and I find the seat in a voyager perfectly fine.

If a child is having a 'panic attack', about getting onto a busy train and it is a genuine panic attack not a child throwing a strop then they need treatment, but isn't the fault of the TOC. I have anxiety disorder which is triggered by seemingly everyday situations, for example one particular windowless lecture theatre at University would often set off an anxiety attack.