What level does HEx need to fall to before political pressure calls for its demise?

[NCT]

Don't closure procedures relate to whether a piece of track or station would end up devoid of passenger services? In the HEx case there's no link or station that would be left unserved so no Parliamentary of any sort would be necessary.

 

[Mikey C]

Additional Liz Line services to Heathrow would definitely be more useful for the majority of airport travellers, reducing the number of T5 passengers having to change at T2&3.

Currently it's 4ph to T4 but only 2ph to the far more important T5, as HEx operates to T5.

 

[Djgr]

Additional Liz Line services to Heathrow would definitely be more useful for the majority of airport travellers, reducing the number of T5 passengers having to change at T2&3.

Currently it's 4ph to T4 but only 2ph to the far more important T5, as HEx operates to T5.

Sounds like a plan. Could this happen if the HEx was ended (without any apparently insurmountable infrastructure issues)?

 

[cle]

That being one of the royally stupidest project ever, but I digress.

I don't think that's really a like-for-like with HEX, though it will dump people out of the city center as does HEX.

It's a different line though, to a point. So it is new capacity via the spur, vs cannibalizing entirely. The RER ride is not the nicest either. And airport passengers will probably move away from that.

Whereas HEx and Crossrail is the same route and tracks into Heathrow. The equivalent would be a non-stop run on the RER route, not possible!


I got HEx the other week, purely because the wait was 4 mins (CR was 15), it was 9pm and I couldn't be arsed to wait. And was expensing it. Got the tube from Paddington to my hotel in town.

 

[signed]

So it is new capacity via the spur, vs cannibalizing entirely

It's taking one or two (can't remember) RER B sidings, which is arguably more important to the users

The RER ride is not the nicest either. And airport passengers will probably move away from that.

I give you that, but Gare de l'Est is really not that central. People not using taxis will end up on metros or on RER, the same RER B they could have caught at the airport and saved 8 or 9€ not including the extra rail fare.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Euston Square to/from Paddington only has lifts in one direction (eastbound I think). Your easiest option in terms of accessibility would probably be a bus from Euston to Tottenham Court Road Liz (390 I think?) then the Liz.

And you can of course take the Liz from Paddington.

The lift at Euston Square is on the westbound platform, and returning, I just double back from KGX. I’m not taking a large suitcase on a bus

 

[cle]

It's taking one or two (can't remember) RER B sidings, which is arguably more important to the users


I give you that, but Gare de l'Est is really not that central. People not using taxis will end up on metros or on RER, the same RER B they could have caught at the airport and saved 8 or 9€ not including the extra rail fare.

Agreed, it's not amazingly convenient. I wish it had somehow been able to fold into RER E (after being express) and then would have a bigger role, inc direct La Defense access and more one-seat Paris stations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The lift at Euston Square is on the westbound platform, and returning, I just double back from KGX. I’m not taking a large suitcase on a bus

It's surprisingly easy unless a wheelchair user wants to board (in which case your best bet is probably to alight and get the next bus). No steps, no lift etc. Just sit downstairs. Certainly been my preference in the past for Euston-Waterloo and Euston-Paddington (though noting that the 205 direct service from Euston to Paddington will soon be lopped).

 

[dosxuk]

In the real world, away from the railway enthusiast community, nobody is calling for the removal of the HEX services.

Anyone who thinks they're going to disappear any time soon is deluding themselves.

Long, frequent, empty trains

I suspect most passengers look on enviably, wishing their trains were the same rather than that those trains didn't exist.

HAL charge for access through the tunnels so denying that access would be very odd behaviour.

Denying access might be odd, but saying "you've prevented us from running our services which were paying for the construction and maintenance of the branch and tunnels, so we're going to have to put our access costs up to cover the money we're now losing" would not.

 

[A S Leib]

If Heathrow Express were to stop running, where would 12 4-carriage units of trains barely a decade old be of most use (I'm fairly sure 345s are the only passenger trains currently cleared for the Crossrail core?)? Are there any particular services on GWR, Great Northern or Southern they could be used to strengthen, as I don't know if there's enough of them for any other TOC to particularly want or need them?

 

[Brubulus]

If Heathrow Express were to stop running, where would 12 4-carriage units of trains barely a decade old be of most use (I'm fairly sure 345s are the only passenger trains currently cleared for the Crossrail core?)? Are there any particular services on GWR, Great Northern or Southern they could be used to strengthen, as I don't know if there's enough of them for any other TOC to particularly want or need them?

If Oxford and Bristol finally get electrification, GWR would be glad to have 12 more 387s to use. Otherwise they could go to Southern so they can send 377s to Southeastern.

 

[JonathanH]

There are some fairly obvious gaps between Airport Jn and Reading on the main lines so I don't think that's true. However the point is that people are paying more to go to Heathrow Airport than they would to Reading.

Do they match up with the paths used by Heathrow Express between Paddington and Airport Junction?

In the down direction, the off-peak xx08 and xx38 Didcots run ahead of the Heathrow xx10 and xx40 Heathrows with the crossing move at Dolphin Junction. In the peak, the Didcot moves to xx20 and xx50 ahead of the xx25 and xx55 to Heathrow, with the crossing move at Maidenhead.

 

[Starmill]

Do they match up with the paths used by Heathrow Express between Paddington and Airport Junction?

There wouldn't be a gap there if they didn't!

 

[Harpo]

There’s no justification in criticising Hex’s use of capacity while GWR itself fills most paths to Newbury, Oxford, Cheltenham and the Worcester line with 4 & 5 coach trains.

 

[stuu]

It's a different line though, to a point. So it is new capacity via the spur, vs cannibalizing entirely. The RER ride is not the nicest either. And airport passengers will probably move away from that.

Whereas HEx and Crossrail is the same route and tracks into Heathrow. The equivalent would be a non-stop run on the RER route, not possible!

RER B runs trains which only stop once between CDG and Paris Nord every 15 minutes, taking 27 minutes. The CDG Express will be 7 minutes quicker to a worse location and unless you are heading to somewhere directly outside Gare de l'Est you will lose all that time. It's pretty much exactly the same as HEX in the sense of not being as useful even if it's quicker. Presumably the fast RER B trains will go to make it look better?

 

[Topological]

There’s no justification in criticising Hex’s use of capacity while GWR itself fills most paths to Newbury, Oxford, Cheltenham and the Worcester line with 4 & 5 coach trains.

Agreed

Though slightly harsh on GWR as they do have to use IETs to cover other routes and my understanding is IET availability is not as great as it could be. That is as someone who always fears we get a 5-car on a Swansea to London.

 

[lachlan]

There’s no justification in criticising Hex’s use of capacity while GWR itself fills most paths to Newbury, Oxford, Cheltenham and the Worcester line with 4 & 5 coach trains.

Delivering a frequent service sounds like a good use of capacity regardless of train length. Duplicating the Crossrail service with a much more expensive service that only goes to Paddington, less so.

 

[A S Leib]

Of those pushing for western or southern links to Heathrow, has there been any clear preference for Crossrail or Heathrow Express services? (Assuming that intercity services through Heathrow are impractical, and that services from Slough or Staines wouldn't be terminated at Heathrow.)

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

This comes up every now and again.
Ultimately, even if HX ran completely empty, it would still run. The farebox revenue is a (very nice) bonus. It's real value comes from what it can charge the airlines as part of its access charges.

There is also tangible value from a marketing and business development perspective to be able to say your airport is connected by fast rail - which raises its status and reputation, even to people who wouldn't ever travel by rail.

 

[Starmill]

RER B runs trains which only stop once between CDG and Paris Nord every 15 minutes, taking 27 minutes. The CDG Express will be 7 minutes quicker to a worse location and unless you are heading to somewhere directly outside Gare de l'Est you will lose all that time. It's pretty much exactly the same as HEX in the sense of not being as useful even if it's quicker. Presumably the fast RER B trains will go to make it look better?

The capacity released on the B is going to be pretty significant though isn't it. Which is the actual benefit.

 

[Djgr]

This comes up every now and again.
Ultimately, even if HX ran completely empty, it would still run. The farebox revenue is a (very nice) bonus. It's real value comes from what it can charge the airlines as part of its access charges.

There is also tangible value from a marketing and business development perspective to be able to say your airport is connected by fast rail - which raises its status and reputation, even to people who wouldn't ever travel by rail.

Yes but ultimately its continuation is a political decision.

If there is no alternative use for the infrastructure then fair enough. On the other hand if it is constraining the introduction of other services then less so.

 

[The exile]

Not necessary I suspect, mainly because HEX is an open access operator not specified by DfT, it is not a requirement of the GW franchise (now a management contract).

And - assuming the Elizabeth Line continued to go to Heathrow, no sections of line would have their passenger services completely removed.

Sorry - now seen that this was pointed out yesterday!

 

[Hadders]

My view is there should be a dedicated Heathrow Express service. It’s important that airports as important as Heathrow have a dedicated premium service.

Of course, not everyone will use that service. For many the Elizabeth Line or even the Piccadilly Line will be what they’ll use. I count myself in this bracket. But good as the Elizabeth Line is, it isn’t always the best experience for passengers especially at peak times.

If patronage is an issue on Heathrow Express, and the farebox revenue trivial in the scheme of things, then fares could always be reduced to drive up numbers and relieve pressure on the Elizabeth Line.

 

[stuu]

The capacity released on the B is going to be pretty significant though isn't it. Which is the actual benefit.

Yes undoubtedly, but it seems a sub-optimal solution for most airline passengers compared to the current situation. What they really needed to do is separate the B and D lines, then there would be capacity for airport and suburban trains

 

[Starmill]

Agreed

Though slightly harsh on GWR as they do have to use IETs to cover other routes and my understanding is IET availability is not as great as it could be. That is as someone who always fears we get a 5-car on a Swansea to London.

A 7 or 8 car train would be an expensive waste between Swindon and Cheltenham Spa via Stroud though. Let alone a 9 or 10 car one. A 3 or 4 car train on half-hourly pattern between Swindon and Gloucester may make more sense, with connections into and out of a much longer train to Bristol Parkway. But this is tricky to fit in and even if you could the mix of stock is wrong. And presumably there'd be outraged howls of protest about the loss of direct trains between Gloucester and London.

 

[NCT]

Yes but ultimately its continuation is a political decision.

Is it?

It's a combination of commercial and regulatory outcomes. Yes, under the current system, but I would expect the new GBR system to be one that still gives the private sector players confidence they operate in a predictable rule-based environment. I find the suggestion the government can simply go in and dictate things troubling. We don't live in communist China or Trump America.

HEx may make a commercial decision not to renew their Track Access contract. Or (I'll describe the process in terms of the current system) DfT (via GWR) could apply to operate additional system, then Network Rail would have to demonstrate there's not enough capacity to satisfy all track access applicants then declare the GWML Congested. Then a process is triggered that might involve Capacity Charges and Decision Criteria.

If DfT really wants those paths it can trigger such a process. Does it even want to? Is Treasury convinced it should finance running 2tph additional LDHS services?

Of course this all ignores the point that those HEx paths only exist because there are those Main Line path that make Slough stops that create those paths east of Airport Junction. Without consulting the timetable I don't remember the particulars - it might be that 2tph of the 4tph HEx paths are in those 'Slough bonus' paths, but the other 2tph occupy paths that do exist to at least Reading.

 

[renegademaster]

If Heathrow Express were to stop running, where would 12 4-carriage units of trains barely a decade old be of most use (I'm fairly sure 345s are the only passenger trains currently cleared for the Crossrail core?)? Are there any particular services on GWR, Great Northern or Southern they could be used to strengthen, as I don't know if there's enough of them for any other TOC to particularly want or need them?

TfL could probably run basically the same service, lease the same stock, but subsume it under the Elizabeth line and get rid of the price differences or make it not as steep.

 

[Haywain]

TfL could probably run basically the same service, lease the same stuck but subsume it under the Elizabeth line and get rid of the price differences or make it not as steep.

They probably could but what would it achieve?

 

[renegademaster]

They probably could but what would it achieve?

In their hypothetical situation that HEX disbands or are forced out, it would use the paths for something useful and generate TfL some money

 

[MikeMundy]

Do HX trains have GWR or HX drivers and on board staff?