• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

What makes a good livery?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Sorcerer

Member
Joined
20 May 2022
Messages
806
Location
Liverpool
Make no mistake, this isn't a question about what train operator has the best livery. At least not in the sense of your personal favourite. But rather this thread raises the question as to what makes a good livery for a train operator and why some liveries are better than others. For me personally, a good livery is one that is simple (as in design and pattern), distinctive, appropriately branded, and enhances the look and design of the train. Additionally, a good livery also uses the appropriate amount of colours and mixture of colours so that it's striking enough to be noticeable and distinctive but also simple enough that it's not a total eyesore. I would argue that three is generally the magic number for a train livery with maybe a fourth colour at a push if used correctly. All of these considered, I would personally consider the following liveries to be the best:
  • CrossCountry: It's dark burgundy/brown roof and cab sides with silver bodyshell and grey and black window bands gives it a very sleek and distinctive modern look. I would argue that it's quite overbranded though unfortunately and could do with less text on the side of the trains themselves.
  • Grand Central: The black base colour combined with a modestly applied orange stripe and white doors (except gold for first class) make this livery stand out for it's sheer uniqueness and really gives a grand feel true to the operator's name. It gives them a really premier feel without looking like an outdated steam-era livery that would otherwise look bad in a lot of other colours in my opinion.
  • GNER: One of the old ones that no longer exists on the rail network, but I still believe it's a prime example of how a minimal use of colour variety can play to a livery's strength. The dark blue base colour and red stripes/doors made this livery look very smart back in the days of GNER, and some would even argue it's the best that's ever been on the East Coast Main Line since privatisation.
  • Great Western Railway: A prime example of a rail operator paying tribute to it's heritage while maintaining a modern look. The shades of green and white make the rolling stock look very smart in my opinion, and it's also a fine example as to how minimal use of different colours isn't necessarily a bad thing. That said, the mixture of lime green and grey kind of ruins the interior for me.
  • ScotRail Saltire: This livery is naturally distinctive being that it's very much decorated in the flag of it's area of operations. That said, I still think it's still a striking livery that doesn't even need much branding to begin with. I think the light blue dots near the door areas might be a bit much, but they don't hurt the livery too much in my opinion.
  • Virgin Trains: Another old one that no longer exists on the network, but still a distinctive livery that gave the Pendolino fleet a sleek modern look in line with the West Coast Main Line modernisation with it's red roof and cab sides and silver bodyshell separated by a swooshing white band, black window bands, and even a distinctive yellow smile that was well incorporated into the livery itself.
Of course naturally there will be some liveries that don't meet much of the criteria and will rank poorly. Some of these for me include:
  • Avanti West Coast: Non-LMS colours on the WCML aside (which is a personal preference for me anyway), the varying patterns on the white coaches combined with door colours changing makes this livery a little messy in my opinion. The cab cars look fine, but the white coaches could really do better than just having one side decorated while the other side remains largely bland and untouched. The Avanti triangles between the windows and doors don't help either and should be left solely at the side of the cab areas.
  • Great Northern: This livery isn't really bad, but it's very indistinctive with it's mixture of a mostly light grey and white bodyshell with only the branding and blue doors to stand out. I feel like even a simple inclusion of black window bands might help give this livery a bit more of a flavour to it because otherwise it's very uninspiring and not so different than other operator liveries.
  • London North Eastern Railway: LMS colours on the wrong railway aside, the Class 800/801s really don't look that much better than their base livery of plain white when they first arrived. The mixtures of red across the window bands don't really suit the train in my opinion, and the grey doors do not exactly compliment the rolling stock either. Really not the look I'd personally want for an intercity operator.
  • Northern: The blue and white isn't really that bad, but the branding of various N stickers across the bodyshell along with a lack of black window bands to contrast with the plain whiteness really doesn't do any favours to this livery in my opinion. The N branding in particular doesn't help when it almost makes the operators name into "N-Northern".
  • South Western Railway: Another livery that suffers from a messy looking colour scheme with diagonal white and grey line patterns on the sides and lacking window bands with only a blue stripe along the bottom of the sides that don't transition well onto a larger blue area on the end coaches, and also from being obnoxiously overbranded with it's logo and company name slapped on the side of each coach.
Those are just a few examples of each, but what do you all personally think makes a good train livery? Do you agree or disagree with my criteria? Or do you simply not agree with my choices and believe that they are good for different reasons? Let us know your own thoughts as to what you personally believe makes a good livery and why you think some liveries may or may not meet your personal criteria. Remember, this isn't just your personal favourite liveries, this is a discussion as to what makes a good livery for operators, and in some ways a discussion as to what can even make a bad livery. I look forward to hearing your thoughts and hopefully participating in this discussion.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Class360/1

Member
Joined
10 Feb 2021
Messages
652
Location
Essex
A good livery should be:
. Modern
. Recognisable
. Memorable
. Colours palette of 3-4 colours (excluding train fronts)
. Not too complex, but not too simple (**cough cough** GN 387)
 

John Luxton

Established Member
Joined
23 Nov 2014
Messages
1,658
Location
Liverpool
I think you have made a fair summary of the liveries - I do like GWR but anything with GWR on the side of it be 1930s or now would always make me happy! I like how on the back of each seat back there is a small round GWR monogram as well rather than the circular blank disk that appears to fill the same space say on TfW.

You have not mentioned TfW and I think I do think the current TfW livery is better than the old Arriva livery. It is fairly simple. Though I do wonder why TfW didn't go for a more clearly orientated Wales look. Rather than grey / red - green / white / red? or perhaps have a dragon instead of the "T" logo.

Moving on to things local to me providing they don't subsequently add picture graphics to the new Merseyrail 777 units as the 507/8s gained they will look better. The current units look messy, though once looked quite good. I do question the continuing use of yellow though as it leads to confusion say with Manchester Metrolink which is only a few miles down the road, I think it would have been time to go for a unique look. The old Liverpool Corporation green or Birkenhead Corporation blue.
 

Sorcerer

Member
Joined
20 May 2022
Messages
806
Location
Liverpool
You have not mentioned TfW and I think I do think the current TfW livery is better than the old Arriva livery. It is fairly simple. Though I do wonder why TfW didn't go for a more clearly orientated Wales look. Rather than grey / red - green / white / red? or perhaps have a dragon instead of the "T" logo.
I would've said Transport for Wales as well but the list of good was getting a bit long. I do think the livery looks better on some stock more than others though. The Stadler Flirt stock look fantastic from what I've seen of them, but the CAF stock is a bit lacking. Again, I blame the lack of black window bands for this, and I really wonder just how many people underestimate the difference they make (the Pendolino fleet especially highlights just how much they enhance the look of a train). The Class 91s don't exactly do it for me either, so it's kind of a mixed bag in my opinion. That said, I do agree on going for a more Wales orientated look, because as much as I love the new Stadler stock in terms of how they look, they wouldn't look out of place on the SBB network which isn't really what you want for a distinctive livery. Grand Union trains (at least the artists impressions) have the right idea but could still do with a bit of work.
 

AlexNL

Established Member
Joined
19 Dec 2014
Messages
1,684
A thing which matters a lot to me is that the shape of the vehicle is taken into account in the design of the livery which gets applied to it.

Take the fflecsi buses for example:
1654021608354.png
Photo of fflecsi branded Mercedes Sprinter vans in the Transport for Wales red-grey-black livery

The signature red band follows the roof, neatly angles to follow the windscreen and then elegantly wraps around the front of the van.
 

Ken H

On Moderation
Joined
11 Nov 2018
Messages
6,321
Location
N Yorks
I liked the early Inter City Sector livery, with the red stripe. But it did get grubby quickly

NSE toothpaste - er - no

The claret and cream Strathclyde livery looked good too.

Pity BR blue/Grey was such a fat boring colour

Not a fan of the 'busy' modern liveries. The seem to be all about disguising the fact its a train.
 

Domh245

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2013
Messages
8,426
Location
nowhere
A thing which matters a lot to me is that the shape of the vehicle is taken into account in the design of the livery which gets applied to it.

Take the fflecsi buses for example:
View attachment 115488
Photo of fflecsi branded Mercedes Sprinter vans in the Transport for Wales red-grey-black livery

The signature red band follows the roof, neatly angles to follow the windscreen and then elegantly wraps around the front of the van.

100% - one of the more egregious examples are the pendolinos with their original front end arrangement that wrapped around the headlights and had the same curvature as the windscreen surround vs the current "here's a perfectly straight edged line down from the widest bit of black"
 

Sorcerer

Member
Joined
20 May 2022
Messages
806
Location
Liverpool
100% - one of the more egregious examples are the pendolinos with their original front end arrangement that wrapped around the headlights and had the same curvature as the windscreen surround vs the current "here's a perfectly straight edged line down from the widest bit of black"
I wonder if part of the reason why the yellow smile was removed was to enable an all black roof with no gaps to hide the dirt and grease from tunnels, bridges and overhead lines. One thing you could certainly notice when viewing an old Pendolino from above was that the red roof got very dirty, and it's just as well that this is an area where the passengers generally won't see or it would probably would've been a bigger issue for them. That said, the yellow on the front in it's newest application isn't anywhere near as nice to look at.

XC has a red roof, they are just filthy and unkempt, very much a signature of the TOC!
Oh well, that's unfortunate, but somehow I also feel like Virgin red on the roof and XC burgundy on the side would feel like an eyesore if it was properly kempt and clean. That said it still kind of knocks a point off for me. Is that just the case on the Voyagers though because based on a quick Google Images search result, the HST and Mark 3 coaches seem to be roughly the same colour on the roof as they are on the cab side. Can't be sure on the Turbostars though, but I would imagine diesel fumes from multiple units would dirty the roof on the whole unit while a loco-hauled train wouldn't by it's nature have such an issue.
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
15,355
XC has a red roof, they are just filthy and unkempt, very much a signature of the TOC!
Only on the Voyagers, because they were a quick bodyside vinyl modification of the Virgin livery. The full XC repaints on HSTs and Turbostars don't have the red roof.
 

Sorcerer

Member
Joined
20 May 2022
Messages
806
Location
Liverpool
Yep, just the Voyagers which were vinylled rather than repainted.
Thanks for the info. I must admit, had it not been for the other CrossCountry sets being properly coloured that would've almost certainly knocked the livery off meeting my personal criteria.
 

fgwrich

Established Member
Joined
15 Apr 2009
Messages
9,305
Location
Between Edinburgh and Exeter
Ii have to say, this is where the personal subjectiveness of liveries can really come in to play:

I for example, can't stand the drab utilitarian Green used by First GWR on it's stock. It doesn't look good when dirty and the silver doors act as a dirt trap. The DfT ordered 800s, with their Green vinyl livery, have started to fade and most look Matt now than the original glossiness it was supposed to have (as well as peeling around the edges revealing the 'dealer stock white' underneath).

Whereas, I really liked the First Group's Dynamic Lines - A much brighter, and more colourful livery that certainly stood out in the landscape. It was also a very clever used of the First Group colour template, and had brilliant and clever "localised" touches like the 'City Lights' version for First Capital Connect and the 'Local Lines' for the West Country (aka the Lusty Glaze livery). It also hid the dirt rather well and, particularly on the HSTs, looked smart simple and effective - giving you the impression of a High Speed train even when stationary.

Another livery worthy of a mention is Serco's Caledonian Sleeper. A beautiful deep Midnight Teal, with a simple yet very effective 5 pointed Stag. Now, that is a clever piece of design for two reasons, a Stag is an animal very much associated with the Scottish Highlands and, the 5 points also relate to their 5 destinations of: Fort William, Inverness, Aberdeen and Glasgow, Edinburgh.

And finally, another one I will mention: The effervescent and super smart London Midland. A livery, and a brand, designed by well known design firm Best Impressions, I feel this is one rather much missed livery. Warming, Contrasting with the landscape, sitting well on anything it touched (including the ugly duckling 139) and not too over the top, it was a shame when the Abellio operated WMT / LNWR came along and swept it away with it's "Trebor Mints" inspired livery.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
98,010
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
As the "Trebor Mints" LNR livery was mentioned... trains are sleek, long, thin things, so horizontal livery elements look good and too many vertical ones don't. You have to have some vertical elements for the doors, but there shouldn't be too many others.
 

billio

Member
Joined
9 Feb 2012
Messages
503
The TPE livery is very good across all the four types of train they operate. In my view definitely better than other operators of the 800 series of trains.
Why?
It could be the light shades of blue and the sweep of the banding around the front of the train but a TPE 802 sliding into a station looks impressive.
 

Halish Railway

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2017
Messages
1,717
Location
West Yorkshire / Birmingham
I do think that the Greater Anglia livery on the Class 745s and 755s looks brilliant - Simple but recognisable and works with the architecture of the vehicles, although it doesn’t work as well on the Aventras due to the shape of the unit.

Another excellent livery is EWS on the Class 66s, but the 66s only. It looks brilliant when whethered. I think the fact that it is so common is what makes people loose appreciation for it.
 
Last edited:

dk1

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Oct 2009
Messages
16,081
Location
East Anglia
I do think that the Greater Anglia livery on the Class 745s and 755s looks brilliant - Simple but recognisable and works with the architecture of the vehicles, although it doesn’t work as well on the Aventras.

Another excellent livery is EWS on the Class 66s, but the 66s only. It looks brilliant when whethered. I think the fact that it is so common is what makes people loose appreciation for it.
Agreed on both.
 

fgwrich

Established Member
Joined
15 Apr 2009
Messages
9,305
Location
Between Edinburgh and Exeter
As the "Trebor Mints" LNR livery was mentioned... trains are sleek, long, thin things, so horizontal livery elements look good and too many vertical ones don't. You have to have some vertical elements for the doors, but there shouldn't be too many others.
There's where "Dynamic Lines" (to me at least) works best whereas GWR doesn't. Taking a Mk3 as a base for example, the "Dynamic Lines" block of colour contrasts nicely against a deep blue background running along a 23 metre vehicle, rising up and down towards each end of the vehicle and contrasting colour door. GWR has a thin silver strip on a dark green base, and the oddly placed near vertical Matt "Sash" vinyl at each right end of the vehicle, which makes it look unbalanced.

At least the Caledonian Sleeper livery, with it's Antlers, keeps the livery looking simple and balanced.

Anything that doesn’t look like a rainbow.
So... No more "ONE" style liveries then? :lol:
 

Sorcerer

Member
Joined
20 May 2022
Messages
806
Location
Liverpool
I'm glad that the new TPE livery and the Caledonian Sleeper livery have been brought up because I have to agree on them being worthy contenders! Feels a bit to strange to admit loving the former as well because it has the same sort of principle as Avanti West Coast with unique triangular patterns on non-cab coaches. However I think in this case it's the choice of different colours alongside the silver base colour that gives it a place on my list of favourite liveries, and the Caledonian Sleeper one also does for me for the same reasons listed, and I must admit, I have quite a fondness for the use of the stag. I wonder if a unicorn could do just as good a job seeing as that's Scotland's national animal, but stags work fine for reasons already stated. That could possibly be a source of inspiration for those who would advocate the similar use of a dragon on a hypothetical Transport for Wales livery.
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
15,355
Another excellent livery is EWS on the Class 66s, but the 66s only. It looks brilliant when whethered. I think the fact that it is so common is what makes people loose appreciation for it.
Just to prove the point about this very much being personal perception, any maroon based livery just doesn't work, as once it is weathered it become a brown colour. EWS is, though, about the best of maroon you'll get. At the other end of the scale, WCRC maroon, which very quickly becomes a turd brown colour.

More generally, as @Bletchleyite notes above, trains are long thin things, so stripes work well. That's why InterCity Swallow livery won't be beaten.
 

pdeaves

Established Member
Joined
14 Sep 2014
Messages
5,631
Location
Gateway to the South West
Much depends on how it's looked after. Even the best livery looks poor if dirty (or 'clean' but with ingrained grubbiness).

I think liveries based on grey and/or white look 'blah' and create their own problems with cleanliness. If GA was based on, say, light blue rather than off-white, I think I would like it more. It's good, dynamic, but in my opinion the wrong colour.
 

3141

Established Member
Joined
1 Apr 2012
Messages
1,774
Location
Whitchurch, Hampshire
A thing which matters a lot to me is that the shape of the vehicle is taken into account in the design of the livery which gets applied to it.

Take the fflecsi buses for example:
View attachment 115488
Photo of fflecsi branded Mercedes Sprinter vans in the Transport for Wales red-grey-black livery

The signature red band follows the roof, neatly angles to follow the windscreen and then elegantly wraps around the front of the van.
I'll add my support for that. Too many modern liveries add lines at various angles which bear no relation to the shape of the vehicle, which in the case of railway coaches is basically rectangular.
 

Ashley Hill

Established Member
Joined
8 Dec 2019
Messages
3,301
Location
The West Country
I always like the Blood and Custard on the Strathclyde PTE units. Simple and traditional.
Also the GWT Merlin livery was quite nice and suited the HSTs well.
 

Mat17

Member
Joined
17 Aug 2019
Messages
773
Location
Barnsley
I always like the Blood and Custard on the Strathclyde PTE units. Simple and traditional.
Also the GWT Merlin livery was quite nice and suited the HSTs well.
Blood and custard looked fab on the Mk1s to be fair especially with a lined black loco. Hard to keep clean in the steam era though and so the drab maroon took over.
 

Sorcerer

Member
Joined
20 May 2022
Messages
806
Location
Liverpool
Just to prove the point about this very much being personal perception, any maroon based livery just doesn't work, as once it is weathered it become a brown colour. EWS is, though, about the best of maroon you'll get. At the other end of the scale, WCRC maroon, which very quickly becomes a turd brown colour.
In that case it looks like the National Railway Museum will have their work cut out maintaining the Duchess of Hamilton. Just a good job she's not as exposed to the elements as she would've been in her working days.

I always like the Blood and Custard on the Strathclyde PTE units. Simple and traditional.
It looked nice but I think the blood and custard livery would only work on a handful of old units. I'm sure you could say much the same about other liveries including the ones listed, but blood and custard has that distinctive steam-era colouration in my eyes.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top