What next for Hull Trains 180's?

[Clarence Yard]

That is what the industry is currently working towards. All 14 with one operator from December 2019.

Of course, a lot could happen between now and then!

 

[jimm]

The key date for the release of the Hull cl.180 is the December 2019 timetable change day. That is when they are expected to be returned to Angel as they have another user (GC) lined up.

The exact order of the TPE/HT AT300 sets is yet to be determined but the Hull sets therefore must arrive before Dec 2019. That order will be decided in the next month or two when the Hull contract is finalised. They will probably be to the same specification, the only real difference being the HT sets will have a compo car as their first class business is greater.

The potential GW AT300 order (which isn't what has been rumoured) won't affect the pecking order as they will be part of a different procurement process and may well be assembled in a different country to the TPE/HT sets.

HT, GW and GC are reasonably well aligned regarding the 180 sets and their little ways and the main challenge for the HT 180 fleet in the next year or so is when they lose their OOC base as that depot is progressively turned over to HS2 during 2017/8.

Hull Trains are sticking with 2020, if what they told Rail, Railway Gazette and others a couple of weeks ago is accurate...

Five bi-mode trains will enter traffic with First Hull Trains from 2020.

The announcement was made today (March 23) after the Office of Rail and Road (ORR) approved First Group’s application for a further ten year track access from 2019.

Full details of the trains will be announced later in the year FHT said in a statement released today.

http://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/2016/03/23/new-trains-for-hull-trains

Rail promises more details in its new issue.

UK: The Office of Rail & Road has approved open access inter-city operator First Hull Trains’ application for track access rights for a further 10 years from 2019. The FirstGroup subsidiary said this would enable it to go ahead with a £68m plan to order five Hitachi electro-diesel multiple-units which had been announced by the operator on September 3.

Entering service in 2020, these five-car units would be able to work under the 25 kV 50 Hz electrification on the East Coast Main Line from London King’s Cross and then on diesel power on the unelectrified line to Hull and Beverley, eliminating the current need for extensive diesel operation under the wires.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...ull-trains-gets-10-year-access-agreement.html

 

[hulabaloo]

Perhaps they can run on the North Downs line until this forum decides how it should be powered.

 

[Clarence Yard]

I can assure you December 2019 is the target date for release of the HT cl.180 sets. 2020 has been the public fallback date.

The exact switchover date will become clearer when the HT AT300 contract is signed and the build order for the TPE/HT sets is confirmed but the HT cl.180 sets going even earlier than December 2019 is now a distinct possibility.

 

[RobShipway]

Since all the class 802's are being built as far as I am aware in Italy within the AnsaldoBreda factory(ies), could it be that the one's for HT and TPE get built before the GWR trains as I believe that GWR can retain some HST trains until 2024 at least?

 

[D365]

Since all the class 802's are being built as far as I am aware in Italy within the AnsaldoBreda factory(ies), could it be that the one's for HT and TPE get built before the GWR trains as I believe that GWR can retain some HST trains until 2024 at least?

Where did you hear that? According to the press release, the 19 TPE AT300s (which are not yet confirmed to be Class 802) will be fitted out at Newton Aycliffe.

 

[Emblematic]

Since all the class 802's are being built as far as I am aware in Italy within the AnsaldoBreda factory(ies), could it be that the one's for HT and TPE get built before the GWR trains as I believe that GWR can retain some HST trains until 2024 at least?

TPE sets will be built mostly at Newton Aycliffe, after initial sets are built in Japan. GWR build was moved from Japan to Italy, but with no change to delivery schedule. No way would GWR pay for PRM-TSI mods on HSTs when replacement trains are on order.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Since all the class 802's are being built as far as I am aware in Italy within the AnsaldoBreda factory(ies), could it be that the one's for HT and TPE get built before the GWR trains as I believe that GWR can retain some HST trains until 2024 at least?

Anything can happen, but it's not currently the plan.

The AT300 fleet will be assembled at both Newton Aycliffe, UK and Pistoia, Italy with some pre-production at Kasado, Japan.

The GWR fleet is definitely being built in Italy, the TPE fleet is definitely being built in the UK, and the Hull Trains fleet isn't definitely decided yet and may depend on whether Abellio takes up the option of additional AT200 units early.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Hitachi will be extremely busy with AT300 orders up until the accessibility deadline but there won't be as many after that. I see Hitachi bidding hard for further AT300 orders from the other operators so as to keep their factory busy. This is when VTEC would replace their last remaining IC225 rakes with 801s and presumably when Grand Central would look to replace their 180s as well. Having AT300s would make it easier to keep the Open Access paths as the rest of the timetable is rewritten for the consistent and enhanced acceleration and top speed of the AT300 fleet used by all the other operators.

 

[northwichcat]

TPE sets will be built mostly at Newton Aycliffe, after initial sets are built in Japan. GWR build was moved from Japan to Italy, but with no change to delivery schedule. No way would GWR pay for PRM-TSI mods on HSTs when replacement trains are on order.

The word used in the press releases was 'assembled' which could mean everything is created elsewhere, shipped to the UK and then assembled in to a working train at Newton Aycliffe.

 

[jimm]

The word used in the press releases was 'assembled' which could mean everything is created elsewhere, shipped to the UK and then assembled in to a working train at Newton Aycliffe.

Not everything... making these trains no different from Bombardier's 'British-built' trains.

Hitachi Rail Europe Chief Executive Keith Jordan told UK rail journalists at Kasado that the aluminium carriage bodyshells manufactured in Japan using Hitachi’s friction stir welding technique will be shipped into the UK through a convenient North East port, yet to be confirmed.

“Although the bodies will be built here in Japan, we have done our utmost to ensure that we have sourced UK components wherever possible,” he said.

“This means that the trains will be more than 70% British. This fleet is great news for British industry and employment - especially in the North East.”

Hitachi Rail Europe has now sourced all tier one systems on the train, having worked hard to identify companies within the UK who might be able to bid for contracts, the company says.

Of those parts, systems and operations that Hitachi Rail Europe could have sourced from the UK for the new trains, 72% have been purchased from UK-based businesses (based on contract value).

http://www.railmagazine.com/news/ne...nveils-first-five-car-iep-for-dft-s-6bn-order

http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/write/MediaUploads/iep-hitachi.jpg

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Not everything... making these trains no different from Bombardier's 'British-built' trains.

The decision to use such a modular assembly technique has proven its worth already, with AT200 units being assembled at two plants globally, and AT300 units being assembled at three plants globally.

Hitachi could have done everything at Newton Aycliffe, including building a friction stir welding shop to make the bodyshells, that's something they're still considering, but the entry into service date for IEP in particular would be several years later. Kasado is well equipped and experienced in testing new designs, reviewing CAD/CAM issues and ensuring the production units don't suffer any of the snagging issues encountered on the pre-production units.

Newton Aycliffe could have done that too, but it would have taken time to build up those skills, to build and equip testing workshops and laboratories, and to have enough pre-production units passing through to actually practice on, and time wasn't on the TOC and ROSCO's side here, with the acute shortage of capacity and impending disability regulations coming.

 

[Emblematic]

The word used in the press releases was 'assembled' which could mean everything is created elsewhere, shipped to the UK and then assembled in to a working train at Newton Aycliffe.

I said built, not manufactured.

build verb (used with object), built or (Archaic) builded; building.
1.
to construct (especially something complex) by assembling and joining parts or materials:
to build a house.

 

[180zephyr]

The date given by Hull Trains last September for the expected entry into service of bi-modes was 2020 and they still haven't confirmed an order.

The TPE order is now presumably ahead of any potential HT sets in the queue, and these may fall even further down the pecking order if an extra batch of GWR AT300s is also ordered soon.

http://www.hulltrains.co.uk/about-u...nsultation-for-high-speed-units/#.VwfdjMe23IE

This could mean then that the 185s displaced from the TPE services could go to XC to do Cardiff Nottingham services
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That is what the industry is currently working towards. All 14 with one operator from December 2019.

Of course, a lot could happen between now and then!

With what operator????
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Since all the class 802's are being built as far as I am aware in Italy within the AnsaldoBreda factory(ies), could it be that the one's for HT and TPE get built before the GWR trains as I believe that GWR can retain some HST trains until 2024 at least?

For what services?

27 are going to Scotrail, but as far as I know, the remaining 31 will go to the scrapheap

 

[Domh245]

Hitachi will be extremely busy with AT300 orders up until the accessibility deadline but there won't be as many after that.

I can't remember the dates, but 2020 is about when the New Tube for London programme starts to kick up a gear, isn't it? If Hitachi were to win that, I think spare capacity wouldn't be something they'd have to worry about filling.

 

[RobShipway]

The decision to use such a modular assembly technique has proven its worth already, with AT200 units being assembled at two plants globally, and AT300 units being assembled at three plants globally.

Hitachi could have done everything at Newton Aycliffe, including building a friction stir welding shop to make the bodyshells, that's something they're still considering, but the entry into service date for IEP in particular would be several years later. Kasado is well equipped and experienced in testing new designs, reviewing CAD/CAM issues and ensuring the production units don't suffer any of the snagging issues encountered on the pre-production units.

Newton Aycliffe could have done that too, but it would have taken time to build up those skills, to build and equip testing workshops and laboratories, and to have enough pre-production units passing through to actually practice on, and time wasn't on the TOC and ROSCO's side here, with the acute shortage of capacity and impending disability regulations coming.

There would have been anything from a 5 - 10 year or more delay while Newton Aycliffe was being built up to do full production onsite.

 

[coppercapped]

There would have been anything from a 5 - 10 year or more delay while Newton Aycliffe was being built up to do full production onsite.

Eh? The whole Second World War took less time than that...:roll:

 

[Class 170101]

Abellio takes up the option of additional AT200 units early.

Is it an Abellio decision or does Transport Scotland have more influence on the decision?

 

[NotATrainspott]

I can't remember the dates, but 2020 is about when the New Tube for London programme starts to kick up a gear, isn't it? If Hitachi were to win that, I think spare capacity wouldn't be something they'd have to worry about filling.

If I had to put money down on it, I would say Bombardier will win the NTfL order and Hitachi will win the HS2 order.

 

[Huxleyj]

I think they are just going to be used on the London to hull line

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Is it an Abellio decision or does Transport Scotland have more influence on the decision?

It's rather complicated, it'll be down to Transport Scotland (they inherit ownership of the units in any case after 25 years).

The option on 10 x 3 car units can be taken up at any time, but will have to be taken up if Abellio are granted a franchise extension at the end of the main franchise period, that's unless Transport Scotland want to grant a franchise extension but don't want Abellio to order more AT200 units.

 

[The Ham]

Hitachi will be extremely busy with AT300 orders up until the accessibility deadline but there won't be as many after that. I see Hitachi bidding hard for further AT300 orders from the other operators so as to keep their factory busy.

Very early 2020's there could be more AT300's for XC (assuming franchise extension).

After that it looks like the factory could be busy with AT200's for Chiltern, followed by more AT300's for TPE.

 

[IanXC]

I must say I have pondered whether the is it 4 or 5 GW 180s going to GC is a sign of one spending a short term with HT to make a 5 unit fleet as they will have with 802s.

The other GC question is whether they have this Cleethorpes application approved as that will require stock - unless they abandon Bradford at that point with VTEC starting 2 hourly service...

 

[jimm]

I must say I have pondered whether the is it 4 or 5 GW 180s going to GC is a sign of one spending a short term with HT to make a 5 unit fleet as they will have with 802s.

There are five with GWR. 180102, 103, 104, 106 and 108.

 

[180zephyr]

Is it an Abellio decision or does Transport Scotland have more influence on the decision?

Abellio make the decision on what their new fleet is going to be, but ORR tell them what cascaded fleet they're going to get.

 

[Clarence Yard]

I must say I have pondered whether the is it 4 or 5 GW 180s going to GC is a sign of one spending a short term with HT to make a 5 unit fleet as they will have with 802s.

The other GC question is whether they have this Cleethorpes application approved as that will require stock - unless they abandon Bradford at that point with VTEC starting 2 hourly service...

The approval for the additional GC trains is still with the ORR as part of the continuing ECML bun fight with the VTEC and First Groups Open Access applications. It's getting increasingly nasty, as the Minutes of the most recent ORR hearing testify.

All 5 GW units officially go off lease at the end of this year with 4 sub leased back till the end of 2017. The 5th unit is apparently required at GC for 180 refurb/heavy mtce. cover.

The 4 Hull units are strongly rumoured to be the GC HST replacements but on past form GC/Alliance could have a cunning plan up their sleeve to use them somewhere else.

 

[swt_passenger]

I thought GC had already announced (as a done deal) that the 5 ex GW 180s would replace their HSTs, purely for fleet standardisation, nothing to do with extra services. That is the way it is explained in one of their news releases. Two additional trains to allow strengthening, and implied that three are to replace the HSTs

2. Investment in Fleet.

We have signed a lease with Angel Trains for five Class 180 trains (from 2017). This will give Grand Central Rail a fleet of 10 Class 180 trains – an increase of two on the eight trains currently in the Fleet. This will increase capacity by 25% overall and gives the company the flexibility to double the capacity on busiest services by joining two trains together to run longer trains, subject to industry approvals.
Having a common Fleet made up Class 180s’ will give Grand Central Rail the opportunity to enter a world-class maintenance programme with Alstom, improving reliability of air con, availability of parts and improved flexibility when it comes to maintenance, leading to less down time and pressure on the fleet.

https://www.grandcentralrail.com/about-us/news-press/£78m-investments-are-just-the-ticket/

The ongoing discussions to do with additional services appear to be independent of the rolling stock deal, the press release says that the issue subject to approval is running two sets in multiple on certain services.

 

[Clarence Yard]

I think a lot of things concerning GC are now getting conflated. The initial plan was indeed to replace the HST units off existing services, that's how part of the investment criteria was justified to the ORR.

But GC currently seem to see a role for their HST sets until the Hull cl.180 sets are available but when HT cut over to AT300 in December 2019 (or slightly before) there isn't much time left to elapse before the HST PRM deadline!

 

[Class 170101]

The approval for the additional GC trains is still with the ORR as part of the continuing ECML bun fight with the VTEC and First Groups Open Access applications. It's getting increasingly nasty, as the Minutes of the most recent ORR hearing testify.

This one?
http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/21387/ecml-hearing-transcript-2016-03-04.pdf

 

[Clarence Yard]

Yes, that one, although the previous one is pretty good reading to. The DfT came in for a right kicking there too.

There has also been a letter sent by the DfT to the ORR which, if it was sent to you or I as individuals, would have been a solicitors matter. Resorting to what I regard as threatening behaviour in order to mask gross incompetence is not doing them any favours.

Once this sad tale gets before the NAO and the PAC, possibly via the national newspapers or Private Eye, the fallout will not be small. It comes to something when an open access operator has to publicly point out to the DfT how to do a proper track access application to secure a return on investment!