What proportion of long distance trains are now sold out at weekends?

[Watershed]

I've done that many times. Why would it land you in bother?

Because they'll ask "so how have you got through the barriers at Newcastle"? And, if you have a particularly militant guard, they could even say "you haven't got a reservation, there are none available, you'll have to get off at the next stop".

 

[james60059]

Just for an experiment, I booked a "10 minute reservation" for the 13:31 from Hinckley to Leicester yesterday (1K15 12:52 Birmingham New Street - Leicester).

3 coach Class 170 rolls in, and observing through the windows, there was fair few airline style seats available (I'm not bothered about a bay of 4 around a window). Altogether, the train was about 40% full, but yet I was told that there was no reservations available - assuming it to be fully booked.

 

[mmh]

Because they'll ask "so how have you got through the barriers at Newcastle"? And, if you have a particularly militant guard, they could even say "you haven't got a reservation, there are none available, you'll have to get off at the next stop".

"I got through the barriers with this ticket to Blah. I now want to go to Bleh." Have we had any reports of people being ordered to leave a train in this way?

I often (admittedly not on LNER) want to travel one stop further on the return leg of a journey than my ticket's valid for. I have to let the guard know I'm doing this as it's a request stop, and I've never had a problem.

 

[AndyMike]

Unfortunately GWR are both long distance and local operator which means they have in the past few weeks started to put some of the long distance restrictions on their local trains. I tried to book tickets on a local train going through Bristol last week but couldn’t due to the train being sold out. The app wouldn’t sell me any kind of ticket, but no attempt was made to stop walk up passengers buying tickets and boarding. Needless to say the train was standing room only into Temple Meads which makes the attempt to stop people buying tickets in advance utterly pointless.

I’ve no doubt this nonsense will make it incredibly difficult to buy a single ticket for journeys involving change of train and operator too which is going to be very tiresome.

Also very tiresome is the situation when disruption on another operator’s route makes travelling on a ‘compulsory reservations’ operator the only realistic option to get to your destination. This has happened to me twice with LNER; on the first occasion I was told I had to make a reservation or not travel, leading to a very long wait at Peterborough for a suitable service. The second time I was told about the unreserved coach C and simply used that, not that tickets were ever checked.

Fundamentally, this all comes down to there currently being too little capacity to implement a reservations-only policy without causing significant inconvenience to large numbers of customers.

 

[Harold Hill]

:::Coach C was unreserved when I travelled from Kings Cross to Newcastle last week. The Train Manager announced that passengers weren’t allowed to sit in it and would be told to move if they did. I assumed it was left empty for passengers joining without reservations at stations further north. We were also told that we must sit in our reserved seat and would be told to move if we didn’t, which meant that it wasn’t permitted to move to an unused or vacated seat in order to increase social distancing:::

Use the old Hillary Clinton routine, don't ask permission just apologise later

 

[gallafent]

As these [advance tickets] are impossible to find at the moment as trains are sold out

This is hyperbole. For example, I recently booked advances a fortnight before travel, for a return on Chiltern between Oxford and London (There was availability at £3.55 each way when I booked, provided I was slightly flexible on timing, which on this occasion I was). There are many advances available every day on both GWR and Chiltern between those two stations a couple of weeks out at least, and often closer to the time, as can be seen straightforwardly by using one of the “mixing deck” ticket sales websites, such as GWR's. I'm sure that the same is true of many other trains across the network.

Of course, some trains are sold out, but many are not. That indicates the quota system is working as intended. Its effect in this case was to get me booked on trains which will (presumably) be less busy than those which were already sold out.

 

[GoneSouth]

This is hyperbole. For example, I recently booked advances a fortnight before travel, for a return on Chiltern between Oxford and London (There was availability at £3.55 each way when I booked, provided I was slightly flexible on timing, which on this occasion I was). There are many advances available every day on both GWR and Chiltern between those two stations a couple of weeks out at least, and often closer to the time, as can be seen straightforwardly by using one of the “mixing deck” ticket sales websites, such as GWR's. I'm sure that the same is true of many other trains across the network.

Of course, some trains are sold out, but many are not. That indicates the quota system is working as intended. Its effect in this case was to get me booked on trains which will (presumably) be less busy than those which were already sold out.

Firstly, you are in a very fortunate position to have 2 operators directly linking the stations you wish to use and maybe that has a bearing on how many advance tickets are on offer.

As for the quota system working, it was utterly pointless on the train I used as the walk up and buy ticket passengers vastly outnumbered the few who managed to buy a ticket online beforehand. The quota for pre booked tickets may have well not existed.

Just to add that I don’t think many people in here are actually talking about the number of advanced (ie discounted) tickets, but rather the cap on sales of any type of ticket for a given train

 

[jayah]

Given the railways are still enforcing social distancing unlike the airlines it is notable that on some intercity routes trains are either completely sold out or only full price first class tickets are available eg London to Manchester this Friday evening. I was also looking at Bristol to Glasgow where only early morning and late evening trains seem to have seats available over the next week or so.

Does anyone have a feel as to what proportion of services are now selling out on each of the main intercity routes?

Almost everything from Birmingham to Cheltenham is sold out this afternoon.

Often the websites will quote some eye watering First Class price, but if you go onto the XC twitter they are telling PRIV holders to head to one of their 4 unreserved coaches.

If you are making a journey involving changes, none of the journey planners are smart enough to stagger the connections to get something to work, they just find the fastest options and refuse to sell anything if either section is sold out.

 

[BluePenguin]

This is hyperbole. For example, I recently booked advances a fortnight before travel, for a return on Chiltern between Oxford and London (There was availability at £3.55 each way when I booked, provided I was slightly flexible on timing, which on this occasion I was). There are many advances available every day on both GWR and Chiltern between those two stations a couple of weeks out at least, and often closer to the time, as can be seen straightforwardly by using one of the “mixing deck” ticket sales websites, such as GWR's. I'm sure that the same is true of many other trains across the network.

Of course, some trains are sold out, but many are not. That indicates the quota system is working as intended. Its effect in this case was to get me booked on trains which will (presumably) be less busy than those which were already sold out.

It is not hyperbole, but my own experience...I am pleased to hear you have found great value advances, although some of us are unable too. This is not propaganda.


I have several trips away I have been trying to plan and have not found any advances. Every train at a suitable time is "sold out". I live in Kent so the 05:33 out of Euston or 06:23 out of Kings Cross is useless to me. The quota system is not working as intended if a false scarcity is created. I have not been looking for any journeys on GWR or Chiltern, although I am pleased to hear that at least these TOCS are not part of the problem.

The only alternative seem to be for us to buy walk up tickets from a machine, or vote with our feet and not travel at all - which is what we shall be doing.

 

[Bikeman78]

The DfT is paying for the railways. The DfT has told the TOCs to ensure there is social distancing.

The DfT had better stay well away from Stratford then! And North Wales for that matter.

 

[Jozhua]

The only reason why the railway need be concerning itself with social distancing is to stay in the DfT's "good books". At least in England, there is no legal obligation to ensure social distancing, whether from the perspective of the train company or the passenger.

It's very disappointing, albeit entirely unsurprising, that parts of the industry are losing potential revenue by turning passengers away. This was all very foreseeable when LNER started with their compulsory reservation policy last year.

This is why compulsory reservations never should have been, should not be and should never be a thing. I hope this trend ends ASAP, especially once the pandemic is not a consideration.

I'm very certain a body of evidence will come through, like with touch surfaces, that distance is not a factor in spread, at least indoors. It is more likely to be aerosols that remain suspended in the air over a period of time. Better ventilation will be more of an improvement than technically having people two metres apart, especially when they are wearing masks that tend to catch the heavier droplets.

The DfT is paying for the railways. The DfT has told the TOCs to ensure there is social distancing.

The DfT is rampantly wanting to reduce their funding for services, either through cuts or more sales of tickets. So to enforce them to keep social distancing at the same time and limit their capacity significantly is dumb.

 

[Jonny]

Coach C was unreserved when I travelled from Kings Cross to Newcastle last week. The Train Manager announced that passengers weren’t allowed to sit in it and would be told to move if they did. I assumed it was left empty for passengers joining without reservations at stations further north. We were also told that we must sit in our reserved seat and would be told to move if we didn’t, which meant that it wasn’t permitted to move to an unused or vacated seat in order to increase social distancing.

Why Coach C? it makes no sense at all; it is hardly the dispatch panel coach - even that might have been a good idea back in January for southbound services but is barely understandable now, or at all on a northbound service.

===== Edit: afterthought

"Hi, my ticket's to Blah but I want to go to Bleh. Can I buy a ticket to Bleh please?"

I've done that many times. Why would it land you in bother?



Ah, that legendary GNER customer "service." The company may be dead, but its spirit lives on!

I suspect that it is a school of thought in play, where people are blocked from doing something to "prevent a bad experience". It has a habit of backfiring.

Under the circumstances of

1. You were unable to buy a ticket, and
2. You have the means and willingness to pay.

It should be the same as at an unstaffed station.

Which makes...

Because they'll ask "so how have you got through the barriers at Newcastle"? And, if you have a particularly militant guard, they could even say "you haven't got a reservation, there are none available, you'll have to get off at the next stop".

A bit of a moot point - once you're on you're on, and as long as you are willing to pay the fare there should be no issue.

 

[greyman42]

Coach C was unreserved when I travelled from Kings Cross to Newcastle last week. The Train Manager announced that passengers weren’t allowed to sit in it and would be told to move if they did. I assumed it was left empty for passengers joining without reservations at stations further north. We were also told that we must sit in our reserved seat and would be told to move if we didn’t, which meant that it wasn’t permitted to move to an unused or vacated seat in order to increase social distancing.

Empty threats.

 

[route101]

:::Coach C was unreserved when I travelled from Kings Cross to Newcastle last week. The Train Manager announced that passengers weren’t allowed to sit in it and would be told to move if they did. I assumed it was left empty for passengers joining without reservations at stations further north. We were also told that we must sit in our reserved seat and would be told to move if we didn’t, which meant that it wasn’t permitted to move to an unused or vacated seat in order to increase social distancing:::

Use the old Hillary Clinton routine, don't ask permission just apologise later

I used LNER few days back from Aberdeen and just went to coach C, was quieter, no ticket check so don't know what the guard would say.

 

[gallafent]

As these are impossible to find at the moment as trains are sold out

It is not hyperbole, but my own experience...I am pleased to hear you have found great value advances, although some of us are unable too. This is not propaganda.

It's hyperbole to suggest that it's impossible to find advance tickets in general, as you suggested in the first quote above. I'm not arguing that some trains are sold out of course! — that's always been true, and it's clearly now got a lot worse, which is definitely not a good thing

When I was booking this journey recently, some of the trains (especially GWR ones) were sold out, but there were enough that weren't that I managed to book the journey satisfactorily. I can understand that it must be extremely frustrating if you're trying to book a longer journey or with more restricted timings,

As for the quota system working, it was utterly pointless on the train I used as the walk up and buy ticket passengers vastly outnumbered the few who managed to buy a ticket online beforehand. The quota for pre booked tickets may have well not existed.

Not good at all. That suggests there's a fairly fundamental problem with the enforcement of compulsory reservations (i.e. there is no enforcement). I'd definitely agree that the current situation looks like the worst of both worlds … deterring online ticket purchase by being fully booked and being rammed when it actually runs because “fully booked” is meaningless on the day and many passengers do not have reservations.

If I do end up experiencing a situation like that, in which I have booked a seat on a train with compulsory reservations (which are clearly being limited in number to make it possible to prevent overcrowding), and it turns out that those aren't being enforced, and the train is sufficiently crowded that social distancing is not possible, … well, it's not going to encourage me to choose rail as my mode of transport again any time soon, despite it having previously been my preferred option, when practical. I have a couple of trips over the next week, it will be interesting to see how these feel.

The quota system is not working as intended if a false scarcity is created.

Exactly, I totally agree with this.

The only alternative seem to be for us to buy walk up tickets from a machine, or vote with our feet and not travel at all - which is what we shall be doing.

… yes indeed. What should be happening is that the first option is not available (in other words, if we take the limits at face value as a “true scarcity” in the sense that it is by design, to create an upper limit on passenger density, then that system needs enforcement to work). Since it seems that it is possible to travel on a “fully booked” train, without a reservation, and without any penalty, the “compulsory reservations” are indeed pretty pointless as a means to reduce overcrowding on certain trains, since it's possible to travel on those trains without a reservation at all. It might reduce numbers marginally, but it's not going to keep them to the chosen limit. Like you, if I can't get the booking, I'll choose a different way to travel (probably by car).

[edited for typo, no other change]

 

[GoneSouth]

The DfT had better stay well away from Stratford then! And North Wales for that matter.

And Bristol

 

[Master29]

There seems to be a complex pattern (please feel free to correct me) regarding availability, faster trains and cost with Advanced tickets in general but then that's not necessarily a bad thing as advance tickets can often mean less busy and faster journeys. For example I've noticed some Friday services from Edinburgh and beyond are cheaper on Fridays than Mondays but similar during the week

 

[AndyMike]

This is why compulsory reservations never should have been, should not be and should never be a thing. I hope this trend ends ASAP, especially once the pandemic is not a consideration.

As stated by others, it’s not even as if compulsory reservations are allowing social distancing to be upheld - quite the reverse. I have had call to use LNER services between Doncaster and Peterborough (in both directions) a great deal in recent weeks. I have seldom seen certain services so crowded. Now, whether they’d be even busier without compulsory reservations I wouldn’t like to guess. But the underlying problem is clearly one of capacity.

Not good at all. That suggests there's a fairly fundamental problem with the enforcement of compulsory reservations (i.e. there is no enfocement). I'd definitely agree that the current situation looks like the worst of both worlds … deterring online ticket purchase by being fully booked and being rammed when it actually runs because “fully booked” is meaningless on the day and many passengers do not have reservations.

This is precisely it. You’re quite right about the lack of enforcement, too. For this system to work at the most basic level, train staff need to check that everyone is sitting in their allocated seats. Not once have I seen this take place. In fact, on the majority of my recent LNER journeys there have been no ticket checks at all.

Compulsory reservations are doing little or nothing to solve the problem of overcrowding/lack of social distancing, while introducing a host of new issues of their own.

 

[Paul Duck]

Passing through Darlington on Friday afternoon with the sun out and restrictions relaxing nationally, I was awaiting connection to Allens West and witnessed at least a dozen people walk up to TVM purchase a Newcastle return on simply board an LNER service to Newcastle without reservations. If your going to enforce compulsory reservations do it properly or not at all. Makes a mockery of booking office staff trying to explain the LNER reservation policy while they witness people do as above.

 

[GoneSouth]

it now gets even more confusing...

Tried to book a journey with a combination of a GWR leg and a XC leg via the GWR app which allowed me to plan the journey without a problem, then at the point of seat reservation it told me this was mandatory so I continued to the relevant section of the app, was allocated seats, then tried to purchase the tickets. At this point the GWR app states cannot continue due to a technical fault.

I thought I better go to the station to purchase the tickets, which were sold to me for the trains I wanted but then the confusing part. I was told by the staff at the office that they “are not allowed to reserve seats due to social distancing”

For people to be told that reservations are essential on one hand and then be told that staff are not allowed to make them on the other is ludicrous.

This really needs fixing, the railways are losing much needed revenue and passenger numbers, people are becoming more inclined to use cars and those that have no other means of transport are left feeling uncertain that they will be able to make journeys at all.

I don’t know what the answer is but I do know I’m fully against enforcing reservation only travel, partly due to my history of so many missed connections. Under reservation only I can see myself spending a lot of time in Birmingham, Manchester or Leeds waiting for an empty slot on a later train.

I wish I could drive right now, I’d be a lost customer to XC and GWR.

 

[peteb]

At a weekend recently FGW tried to sell me an ADV 1st class ticket Worcs to Oxford: nothing available in standard, so I just turned up at WOS and got a standard day return and sat where I wanted on a train which was half empty. Seems to me they either sell out of standard ADV allocation, limit it, or are trying to cash in. Either way it puts off those who fear being turned away if they don't have a reservation........oh and meant to add, the National Rail site couldn't offer a day return ticket on that train, very odd...moral of the story seems to be buy at station on day.