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What route may the HS2 Marsden spur take?

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Bald Rick

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For two 240m two platform (4 max) stations that absolutely stacks up.

When you’ve done a couple of years of development work with a team of 50 people, and spent tens of millions on that development, do please come back and show us the business case and the BCR. Until then I suggest saying it stacks up without evidence is a pretty thin argument.


The core bypass is also deliverable within 12 years.

I’d be interested to know how.
 
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Chester1

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And yet that is the plan, and it does stack up. Rather better, incidentally, than putting massive new stations underground in Manchester.

At the risk of sounding old before my time, I don't understand the recent enthusiasm for underground stations. Why to people want stations that are vastly more expensive and less pleasant?

I am still skeptical about whether it will be built. Is there any indication as to whether the western or eastern section would be built first? Widness-Warrington-HS2 looks a lot more straightforward.
 

stuu

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When you’ve done a couple of years of development work with a team of 50 people, and spent tens of millions on that development, do please come back and show us the business case and the BCR. Until then I suggest saying it stacks up without evidence is a pretty thin argument.
Shhh, he's got some youtubers on his side. Everyone knows that beats engineers
 

HSTEd

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At the risk of sounding old before my time, I don't understand the recent enthusiasm for underground stations. Why to people want stations that are vastly more expensive and less pleasant?
Because the engineering challenges of underground stations are considered to be more tractable than the political challenges related to surface stations.

Getting a new surface railway in an urban area built is essentially impossible.
 
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It is interesting reading but let’s be honest the plan is 3 tracks between Marsden and Huddersfield, there is an existing twin bore with a little work will take OLE. There are two single bores available, the canal access is irrelevant. So the only way in pure economic terms is to use one of the single bores. The curve to it at Marsden is tight but it would be cheaper to sort that out than a new bore. There is no way to fit 4 lines down the valley with a decent line speed and OLE so 3 lines through existing tunnels is where I would put my bet.
 

HSTEd

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It is interesting reading but let’s be honest the plan is 3 tracks between Marsden and Huddersfield, there is an existing twin bore with a little work will take OLE.
Will it? From the geological reports it sounds like an utter nightmare of a project to fit overhead wiring into a tunnel that has been out of serious use for decades and was never designed for it.
This is the kind of risk that can become extraordinarily expensive.

Espeically since this tunnel will be in no way compliant with modern safety standards.

Once you are building an underground railway most of the way from Manchester, why would you take that risk rather than just boring a little further?
The curve to it at Marsden is tight but it would be cheaper to sort that out than a new bore
Would it? From aerial/satellite photography "sorting it out" looks to be outright impossible.

EDIT:

Trying to reduce the curvature of that corner without moving the tunnel bore is going to require excavations on the scale of Twyford Down!
Good luck getting permission for that in that area.
 
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Nottingham59

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From aerial/satellite photography "sorting it out" looks to be outright impossible.
I think the only feasible route to do that would be to continue the line of the twin-track western bore across the valley on a 250m long viaduct and into the hillside opposite. A gentle curve inside the hill would line up with the route beyond Marsden, which would allow high-speed running until the kink at Slaithwaite Viaduct. I reckon you would need curves of 1000m radius, which corresponds to a speed of around 125mph. This topograpic map shows the land forms.
1676127138816.png
The cost of the viaduct, two portals in steep hillsides and 1000m of 1x8m I/D tunnel would I guess be around £300-£500M.
 

zwk500

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I think the only feasible route to do that would be to continue the line of the twin-track western bore across the valley on a 250m long viaduct and into the hillside opposite. A gentle curve inside the hill would line up with the route beyond Marsden, which would allow high-speed running until the kink at Slaithwaite Viaduct. I reckon you would need curves of 1000m radius, which corresponds to a speed of around 125mph. This topograpic map shows the land forms.

The cost of the viaduct, two portals in steep hillsides and 1000m of 1x8m I/D tunnel would I guess be around £300-£500M.
Could you not just angle the bore down and emerge below Marsden rather than above it? It's a bit longer yes but it saves having to do heavy engineering on a Pennine hillside.
 

Nottingham59

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Could you not just angle the bore down and emerge below Marsden rather than above it?
I'm sure you could. But I think you would have to go under the River Colne. The descent would start so far back that you might just as well construct a new bore entirely, and avoid construction site complications around Diggle. Which is what @Bald Rick is suggesting is now the plan.

My best guess about where that new bore would go is shown in post #54, except that we now know the Manchester portal will be between Ashburys and Gorton.

As for cost, civils for Contract C1 on HS2 was let for £1Bn in 2017 and that involved 3.4km of viaduct and 2x16km 9m-diameter tunnels, but costs have risen dramatically since then.
C1: Chiltern Twin Tunnels (15.8km long) and Colne Valley Viaduct (3.4km) – Align JV (Bouygues Travaux Publics, VolkerFitzpatrick, Sir Robert McAlpine) – £965m.
 

zwk500

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I'm sure you could. But I think you would have to go under the River Colne. The descent would start so far back that you might just as well construct a new bore entirely, and avoid construction site complications around Diggle. Which is what @Bald Rick is suggesting is now the plan.
It was always more likely to be a new bore.
 

edwin_m

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A combined 6 platform combined underground NPR/HS2 station 650m long yes it doesn’t stack up.

For two 240m two platform (4 max) stations that absolutely stacks up. One under Piccadilly HS2 (4 platform surface) and the other in an open shallow box on a brownfield site in Salford. The core bypass is also deliverable within 12 years. With NPR as planned we’re looking at 2050

George.
What's the logic in constructing two stations on opposite sides of the city centre?
 

SuperNova

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I think the only feasible route to do that would be to continue the line of the twin-track western bore across the valley on a 250m long viaduct and into the hillside opposite. A gentle curve inside the hill would line up with the route beyond Marsden, which would allow high-speed running until the kink at Slaithwaite Viaduct. I reckon you would need curves of 1000m radius, which corresponds to a speed of around 125mph. This topograpic map shows the land forms.
View attachment 128798
The cost of the viaduct, two portals in steep hillsides and 1000m of 1x8m I/D tunnel would I guess be around £300-£500M.
Not what I've heard. Mentioned it earlier on the thread. It'll diverge to (Manchester bound) to the right somewhere around where Slaithwaite Hall is.
 

HSTEd

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The cost of the viaduct, two portals in steep hillsides and 1000m of 1x8m I/D tunnel would I guess be around £300-£500M.

At that point, better to just cut out the middle man and dig an all new tunnel and avoid the whole mess!
 

Starmill

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Getting a new surface railway in an urban area built is essentially impossible.
It's not though is it? Both Crossrail and HS2 have used up significant amounts of urban surface land for works compounds, routeways, supporting buildings like substations and depots, and ventilation shafts and stations. Yes, some of this was already in Network Rail or other public ownership but the rest of it has been found through re-use of brownfield sites, or, where necccesary, demolition and relocation of buildings including through compulsory purchase. It's also not 'politically' too difficult to build new reserved ways for light railways where there used to be general traffic.
 

Nottingham59

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It'll diverge to (Manchester bound) to the right somewhere around where Slaithwaite Hall is.
We must be talking at cross purposes. Going towards Manchester, that's exactly where I would expect the fast lines to diverge, i.e. before the curve to Marsden station.

The question was whether from there the fast lines could go into a completely new bore falling gently towards Manchester, or curve round on a rising gradient to align exactly with the double-track bore of the existing tunnel.

But the consensus on here seems to be that it will indeed be a new bore all the way.
 
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