What should be the Electric Rolling stock for East Kilbride / Barrhead?

[Steven_G]

Moderator note: Posts #1 - #18 Originally in this thread

Excellent, I'm sure many will be greatful of the ability to run 8-car trains especially in the peaks

am I correct in saying that there isn’t the rolling stock for this at the moment.
The additional 10x385 that Scotrail was going to order on condition of Franchise length didn’t happen.

 

[adrock1976]

am I correct in saying that there isn’t the rolling stock for this at the moment.
The additional 10x385 that Scotrail was going to order on condition of Franchise length didn’t happen.

Class 321s from Anglia could be used in the meantime when they are no longer required there, as Scotrail also has some that have had a coach removed and are similar to the 320s.

 

[waverley47]

Class 321s from Anglia could be used in the meantime when they are no longer required there, as Scotrail also has some that have had a coach removed and are similar to the 320s.

This definitley seems the most likely until such a time as the Argyll Line fleet (318/320) is replaced all in one. Either that or 365s going spare, or heaven forbid, retractioned 442s.

The 156 fleet I guess will get split between the West Highland and South Western lines post-sparks.

Infrastructure wise, has there been any announcement on timeframes for the project? I saw a date of the December 2022 timetable change but that seems a little too soon.

Depot wise, this is also likely to need adjustments to Shields depot, so I'm assuming we'll hear about this in the coming months as well, unless new capacity is being built elsewhere.

 

[Snow1964]

Class 321s from Anglia could be used in the meantime when they are no longer required there, as Scotrail also has some that have had a coach removed and are similar to the 320s.

Would they be able to operate as 3 x 3 car sets (about 182m long) seeing as platforms are intended to be 8car (is it 8 x 23m = 184m) or is it 165m platforms

It could be the same principle used by Southern region in 1970s and 1980s, where the older trains only get used as full length peak hour extras, parked up for about 150 hours a week. The between peak, evening & weekends get operated by newer trains

 

[hexagon789]

am I correct in saying that there isn’t the rolling stock for this at the moment.
The additional 10x385 that Scotrail was going to order on condition of Franchise length didn’t happen.

Not within the ScotRail fleet, no

 

[geoffk]

I don't think we're going to see electrification schemes happening only because of the availability of some EMUs to run them. It's quite easy for the ScotRail operator to order some more 38X-like EMUs for more services.

Won't there be spare emus in England with all the fleet replacement going on? 365s for a start and they've been used in Scotland already!

 

[Scotrail12]

The Milngavie - Edinburgh trains on North Clyde have been canned so could they use the 334's freed up by that for EK? By my estimation, there would be 3 diagrams needed for EK and presuming they want 6 carriages - that would be a total of 6 trains needed. Probably doable. It would at least be a short-term solution until they can get new stock and eventually up to 4tph.

 

[hexagon789]

Won't there be spare emus in England with all the fleet replacement going on? 365s for a start and they've been used in Scotland already!

That was a short term thing though, I suspect they'd want a new fleet

 

[waverley47]

The general move across the central belt has been towards 23m sets, so one would assume that the platform extensions will reflect this. The move to 23m doesn't come without problems (see the underground stations along the North Clyde and Argyll lines) but moving to a consistent fleet length is probably the goal.

Regards using 365's, I'm not sure the numbers add up with replacing potentially all the legacy fleet, but as a stop gap they might work. They're fast enough and reliable enough to do a couple of years service before the replacement happens, but then you don't get the political points of new shiny trains to go with the wires. My personal feeling is once we have a better understanding of the rate of progressive electrification, we'll see a continuous order of x number of 385's a year for the longer commuter routes, and something else for the cathcart and low level suburban lines to keep fleet commonality.

 

[clc]

The Glasgow Metro proposal is also a factor to consider as it would involve converting Neilston, Newton and Cathcart Circle to light rail, freeing up rolling stock currently used on those lines. It would also see the Argyle Line converted to light rail which would remove the problem of the low level stations being unable to handle 8 x 23m trains.

 

[gingertom]

Mods might want to split the rolling stock discussion to a separate thread.

I can see an order for a dozen 8 car 385s solely for use on the E&G, allowing a cascade of the 24 4car units to be deployed elsewhere, with a top up order of some 3 & 4 car units for East Kilbride / Barrhead to make the numbers right.

 

[Southsider]

The Glasgow Metro proposal is also a factor to consider as it would involve converting Neilston, Newton and Cathcart Circle to light rail, freeing up rolling stock currently used on those lines. It would also see the Argyle Line converted to light rail which would remove the problem of the low level stations being unable to handle 8 x 23m trains.

I think that’s a long way off, if ever. The requirement for rolling stock on EK and Barrhead is (hopefully) only two or three years away.

 

[Clansman]

Rolling stock for East Kilbride is forecast 23m coached units at peak time 7 or 8 car operation in the next few years. 20m coached EMUs won't cut it.

If I was hedging a bet, most obvious would seem to me to be non-renatus 321s coming up and being reformed into 320s, as per the past few years, to enable the displacing of the remaining 380s and 385s that still work Inverclyde and Cathcart services.

Then post covid demand permitting, perhaps an order for 10 or so Class 385 TS' carriages to reform some of the /0s into 4-car standard only units to enable 7 or 8 car operation without drafting 385/1s out of the Central Belt. Though I reckon you could get away with using 380s in the peaks for 7 and 8 coach services, without the need to reform the 385/0s.

No large scale fleet orders or life expired sub-fleets necessary, and full fleet flexibility and interoperability can be maintained for the 385s and 318/320s as we see just now with the added bonus of future proofing the 385 fleet for increased capacity in the central belt in future.

The use of 385s and 380s to fill the gaps of the 314 withdrawal accommodates the need for ScotRail to forecast rolling stock provision future electrification schemes without committing to any drastic bit-part sub-fleet procurements that would be obsolete in the near future. A very smart move, of which I'll be surprised if it wasn't intentional.

 

[waverley47]

The problem is that the 320s and 318s aren't too long from being booted out the door as well. They're approaching the end of their lives, and replacement now seems inevitable.

East Kilbride and Barrhead seem pretty solidly in the realms of further 321s for now, then further 385s when they become free. With the Fife lines and any further wires, we'll end up in a situation where large scale fleet replacement is necessary. The platform extensions are a nice piece of future proofing for the two lines, but it would be interesting to see how infrastructure improvements across the southwest of Scotland pan out, and what new fleets are needed to support it.

Anyway, this is getting a bit off topic, so returning to the two lines, is there any advance on Dec 2022 for completion?

 

[Steven_G]

All good suggestions but the key point here is that there were 10 x 385 sets going to be ordered if franchise extension option taken. Scot Gov chose not to and therefore that order is lost.

To go from a potential 385 to a 320/1 or even a 365 is a poor show

Scot Gov are entitled to do what they feel re franchise but CP6 is happening and we will end up with DMUs continuing for a couple of years after electrification complete

 

[waverley47]

However, if rumors on here are to be believed, they've been discussing a new fleet of 385s, some even with batteries

 

[clagmonster]

If I was hedging a bet, most obvious would seem to me to be non-renatus 321s coming up and being reformed into 320s, as per the past few years, to enable the displacing of the remaining 380s and 385s that still work Inverclyde and Cathcart services.

Not Retanus leads to an interesting thought. The Retanus units are PRM modified, so would need no capital expenditure, but are non standard so would presumably increase revenue expenditure in maintenance.

That said, bar the 5 322s and 3 321/9s, non retanus units would need the capital costs of PRM mods for perhaps only a few years service.

It would be interesting to see which option would be deemed most financially viable.

 

[route101]

The problem is that the 320s and 318s aren't too long from being booted out the door as well. They're approaching the end of their lives, and replacement now seems inevitable.

East Kilbride and Barrhead seem pretty solidly in the realms of further 321s for now, then further 385s when they become free. With the Fife lines and any further wires, we'll end up in a situation where large scale fleet replacement is necessary. The platform extensions are a nice piece of future proofing for the two lines, but it would be interesting to see how infrastructure improvements across the southwest of Scotland pan out, and what new fleets are needed to support it.

Anyway, this is getting a bit off topic, so returning to the two lines, is there any advance on Dec 2022 for completion?

I've not seen any date for completion. I thought it was still far off. Could be 8 car 156s if platforms were done before the wiring!

 

[hexagon789]

I've not seen any date for completion. I thought it was still far off. Could be 8 car 156s if platforms were done before the wiring!

Well, they have run as twelves at least once!

 

[Bald Rick]

442s going spare...

(Enters cloakroom)

 

[dgl]

442s going spare...

(Enters cloakroom)

442's? madness when we all know what the solution is and that is the spare 350's, now I know they are 20m length but as the 360's from HEX don't seem to have a use anywhere pay Heathrow the scrap price and take 3m sections for each of then and "cut and shut" it in place, voila, relatively modern and nice 23m electric stock!

 

[Energy]

442's? madness when we all know what the solution is and that is the spare 350's, now I know they are 20m length but as the 360's from HEX don't seem to have a use anywhere pay Heathrow the scrap price and take 3m sections for each of then and "cut and shut" it in place, voila, relatively modern and nice 23m electric stock!

To be fair 350/2s would be a fairly reasonable suggestion had they wanted 20m stock, the rest is certainly RUK speculative!

 

[MatthewRead]

To be fair 350/2s would be a fairly reasonable suggestion had they wanted 20m stock, the rest is certainly RUK speculative!

But can the 350's and the 380's work in multiple?

 

[NotATrainspott]

All good suggestions but the key point here is that there were 10 x 385 sets going to be ordered if franchise extension option taken. Scot Gov chose not to and therefore that order is lost.

To go from a potential 385 to a 320/1 or even a 365 is a poor show

Scot Gov are entitled to do what they feel re franchise but CP6 is happening and we will end up with DMUs continuing for a couple of years after electrification complete

Abellio ScotRail had an option with Hitachi which they could take up to order another 10x3 car 385s, which they made available to the Scottish Government only if they got the full 10 year franchise term rather than cutting short in 2022.

The only loss would be if:

1. the price of the new trains has increased since the option
2. the model of train is no longer available - this is unlikely unless the option is very old and the manufacturer was keen to stop producing them

In all reality, ScotRail/Transport Scotland (or whatever now has the capacity to make train ordering decisions given the end of franchising) could pick up the phone to Hitachi tomorrow and you could order more 385s at a competitive price. With the shift to decarbonisation of rail and battery technology, a subsequent order would probably want to be slightly different to what the option was for anyway.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

In a world of 380s south of Glasgow, 350/2s are hardly a bad idea.

 

[Clansman]

However, if rumors on here are to be believed, they've been discussing a new fleet of 385s, some even with batteries

I'm pretty sure this involved kitting one 385 out with batteries and doing preliminary tests with the scope to fit batteries to the existing fleet, as opposed to getting in new 385s from the get-go. When it comes to procuring 23m EMUs for future electrification schemes in the next 10-15 years, ScotRail don't need to get more 385s when they've a bounty of them trundling in and around Glasgow's southside doing what in essence is bit-part fill in work to make up the numbers on services that they will most likely be shifted from in the next decade.

The problem is that the 320s and 318s aren't too long from being booted out the door as well. They're approaching the end of their lives, and replacement now seems inevitable.

East Kilbride and Barrhead seem pretty solidly in the realms of further 321s for now, then further 385s when they become free. With the Fife lines and any further wires, we'll end up in a situation where large scale fleet replacement is necessary. The platform extensions are a nice piece of future proofing for the two lines, but it would be interesting to see how infrastructure improvements across the southwest of Scotland pan out, and what new fleets are needed to support it.

Anyway, this is getting a bit off topic, so returning to the two lines, is there any advance on Dec 2022 for completion?

Not Retanus leads to an interesting thought. The Retanus units are PRM modified, so would need no capital expenditure, but are non standard so would presumably increase revenue expenditure in maintenance.

That said, bar the 5 322s and 3 321/9s, non retanus units would need the capital costs of PRM mods for perhaps only a few years service.

It would be interesting to see which option would be deemed most financially viable.

The 318/320s aren't exactly top of the list for fleet replacements given the Scottish Government's desire for decarbonisation by 2035. The latest work to PRM the 318s and 320s should see them up to 2030 at least before passenger demand exceeds what's needed - to which Covid19 has pegged this back somewhat.

Cascading a micro fleet works well when you need short term emergency capacity (the 365s last around a year), but with EK you're looking at five or so years before you could cross replace any micro fleet with something more standard and interworkable with the rest of the network.

Hence why more 321 > 320 conversions to displace 380s/385s seem the obvious choice. It's worked for ScotRail so far and has proven a good way to get in capacity whilst maximising flexibility. I hardly think they'd shy away from the this even if it only lasts a maximum of seven years because at the end of the day, a micro-fleet that only works one or two routes without operability with any other fleet or route is far less preferential to going for a tried and tested model of cascade, refurbishment, and integration when it gets you something far more standard and compatible with the network. Worth the cost it seems as far as ScotRail are concerned with previous instances.

 

[D365]

But can the 350's and the 380's work in multiple?

Why would that matter?

 

[MatthewRead]

Why would that matter?

Because they may end up having to rescue each other in case of failures and I think allows greater rolling stock flexibility.

 

[Energy]

Because they may end up having to rescue each other in case of failures and I think allows greater rolling stock flexibility.

There is already around 30+ of each of them, no other stock fully works with 380s anyway.

 

[bramling]

Class 321s from Anglia could be used in the meantime when they are no longer required there, as Scotrail also has some that have had a coach removed and are similar to the 320s.

Definitely 321s are the best bet. Totally suitable for the two routes, and even better that similar units already operate in the area. It’s a no-brainer.