What stock could Northern get to alleviate the current overcrowding and stock shortage problems?

[LeylandLen]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-operator-of-last-resort-to-take-over.199335/

I believe I heard Grant Shapps say Northern would be getting more electric trains from other TOCs, maybe Southern ones. Is this practical?

How about diesel trains? I know some TOCs use 3rd Rail for power supply so they would not do.

 

[Glenn1969]

They were already planned to get extra electrics from WMT I think. Don't hold your breath for any more diesel units any time soon

 

[causton]

They started giving back 319s already, so just take some back!

Apart from that, 365s at Crewe are doing not a lot, so apart from gauging issues... or 315s likewise.

Wouldn't count on getting the WMT 323s anytime soon!

 

[Glenn1969]

2021 apparently

 

[Kite159]

I believe there are some DMUs sitting idle in sidings near Selby and other places across the network...

Ideal to attach to something like a single 150 to create a 4 coach set

Although the PR might not be so good if the pacers return

 

[Southern Dvr]

I believe there are some DMUs sitting idle in sidings near Selby and other places across the network...

damn you, I was about to suggest something that saved the railways of the north a few years ago myself!

 

[plugwash]

Well there are the 769s, which are apparently (after much delay) finally getting close to entry into service.

I presume, once the kinks are worked out, converting the rest of the 319 fleet would just be a matter of money.

 

[Anonymous10]

I believe there are some DMUs sitting idle in sidings near Selby and other places across the network...

Ideal to attach to something like a single 150 to create a 4 coach set

Although the PR might not be so good if the pacers return

Capacity is king I'll take a pacer over nothing

 

[Mogster]

TPEs Castlefield services could stop at Wigan and Bolton again on their way to and from Scotland as they used to. Northern’s peak time services from Castlefield to those commuter destinations are rammed and TPE has been allowed to make their services unavailable, extra capacity is available each hour but not being used.

 

[357 LTSRail]

Would love to see an HST Castle set on northern trains, shame it almost certainly can't happen really. 185s could potentially become available for cascade from TPE depending on Liverpool-Nottingham services. Is also potential for more 769s or vivarail units to supplement diesel fleet. For the electrics, I believe the pool of 319s and soon 321s will be plenty large enough to dip into - especially Greater Anglia's Renatus 321s - these feel like almost new trains to the passenger and should be ideal, as Arriva Rail North has had its own 321s. 332s from Heathrow Express a likely cascade too, fitting in nicely with the 333s.

 

[markymark2000]

You could give Northern 100 more trains but it won't do anything when the infastructure isn't there.

More electric trains won't help much as the majority of Northern routes are being ran in such a way so that a service may run under wires for 70% but that final 30%, it is on diesel lines.
More diesel trains would help but then you you have more diesel trains coming in with the 195s and you have some trains due to move in from other TOCs in due course.

Northern NEEDS Bimodes in my opinion to make use of the wires when they are there but also have the flexibility of vearing off onto the Windermere branch and Barrow in Furness (even if they just get a few bimodes and contain them to these lines as they are the biggest contenders for 'longest running of diesel under wires on a regular basis'.

 

[plugwash]

Northern NEEDS Bimodes in my opinion to make use of the wires when they are there but also have the flexibility of vearing off onto the Windermere branch and Barrow in Furness (even if they just get a few bimodes and contain them to these lines as they are the biggest contenders for 'longest running of diesel under wires on a regular basis'.

I'd have thought crosscountry had about the longest regular "diesel under the wires" runs, running from scotland to York on electfied lines before veering off towards birmingham on a non-electfied line. When they used to ran via the west coast they ran even further under the wires as IIRC the route from the WCML to birmingham is electfied.

LNER and GWR also used to be big contenders for long diesel under the wires runs, but they have both mostly switched to bimodes.

 

[markymark2000]

I'd have thought crosscountry had about the longest regular "diesel under the wires" runs, running from scotland to York on electfied lines before veering off towards birmingham on a non-electfied line. When they used to ran via the west coast they ran even further under the wires as IIRC the route from the WCML to birmingham is electfied.

LNER and GWR also used to be big contenders for long diesel under the wires runs, but they have both mostly switched to bimodes.

XC might be the longest (followed by Avanti Chester - Euston) but Northern isn't far off though. A good 70-80 miles under wires.

LNER and GWR I didn't include on the basis of them switching to BiModes.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

TPEs Castlefield services could stop at Wigan and Bolton again on their way to and from Scotland as they used to. Northern’s peak time services from Castlefield to those commuter destinations are rammed and TPE has been allowed to make their services unavailable, extra capacity is available each hour but not being used.

And how many of those services are diesel powered and therefore able to run via Westhoughton? Going forward the answer is/will be none so its either/or, not both. The decision has already been made, and even then TPE is trying to avoid carrying Bolton/Manchester passengers travelling with-flow during the peaks. At some point the unpopular decision to cut Northern's Airport/Cumbria services at Lancaster may have to be made to reduce the mileage of diesels under the wires and using surplus EMUs from elsewhere to work south of Lancaster. If it's OK to remove 2tph from the Castlefield corridor, even though that's where passengers want to go, then cutting the Cumbria links should also be acceptable, albeit reluctantly. Unless of course those 769s can be made to work...

 

[Mogster]

And how many of those services are diesel powered and therefore able to run via Westhoughton? Going forward the answer is/will be none so its either/or, not both. The decision has already been made, and even then TPE is trying to avoid carrying Bolton/Manchester passengers travelling with-flow during the peaks. At some point the unpopular decision to cut Northern's Airport/Cumbria services at Lancaster may have to be made to reduce the mileage of diesels under the wires and using surplus EMUs from elsewhere to work south of Lancaster. If it's OK to remove 2tph from the Castlefield corridor, even though that's where passengers want to go, then cutting the Cumbria links should also be acceptable, albeit reluctantly. Unless of course those 769s can be made to work...

TPE can run over Chat Moss to Wigan then join the WCML. They were doing this previously and the service was very/too popular. They run through Bolton now without stopping. This requires no more paths through Castlefield, just an additional stop at Wigan or Bolton for TPE. Stopping would seem to be an easy way to increase capacity and provide services if some of Northern’s services are to be withdrawn.

 

[The Lad]

If the DfT are now running Northern even more directly than they already were, they could presumably kick all the nice to haves into the long grass and do a Windermere-Oxenholme shuttle with DMU and electrify the rest of the journey ( other examples could exist).

 

[squizzler]

Class 230

 

[Kite159]

XC might be the longest (followed by Avanti Chester - Euston) but Northern isn't far off though. A good 70-80 miles under wires.

LNER and GWR I didn't include on the basis of them switching to BiModes.

I would imagine something like some of the West Coast Glasgow/Edinburgh - Birmingham - Euston services run using voyagers will top the table for diesels under wires

If Hitachi could manufacture a 4-coach 800, but with the body shell & seat layout of a 385, that would probably make for an ideal regional bi-mode.

 

[TheWalrus]

I don’t think there needs to be any more DMU orders. The whole TfW fleet is coming off lease in the next few years. Plus the 221s from AWC and 222s from EMR, although I suspect XC will be the main contender for these. There are also HSTs off lease which could provide a shorter term solution.
IMO all new train orders should be bi-modes or electric, no more diesel only.

 

[Meerkat]

If the DfT are now running Northern even more directly than they already were, they could presumably kick all the nice to haves into the long grass and do a Windermere-Oxenholme shuttle with DMU and electrify the rest of the journey ( other examples could exist).

But being less removed from the government makes it harder for the railway to do really politically difficult stuff like cutting off Furness and the Cumbrian Coast.

 

[bramling]

I don’t think there needs to be any more DMU orders. The whole TfW fleet is coming off lease in the next few years. Plus the 221s from AWC and 222s from EMR, although I suspect XC will be the main contender for these. There are also HSTs off lease which could provide a shorter term solution.
IMO all new train orders should be bi-modes or electric, no more diesel only.

Are the 156s off EMR spoken for?

 

[Meerkat]

If things got desperate are there any lines where loco hauled can keep to schedule and the trains are/need to be long enough to make it worthwhile?
Just tow the 365s about!

 

[TheWalrus]

Are the 156s off EMR spoken for?

No idea, I wasn’t aware they were coming off lease. Presumably Northern would be a prime contender for these.

 

[TheWalrus]

If things got desperate are there any lines where loco hauled can keep to schedule and the trains are/need to be long enough to make it worthwhile?
Just tow the 365s about!

Although in a different region entirely, Cardiff-Taunton always seems to be the first to get loco-hauled services on the GWR, this could allow a cascade of DMUs to the North?

 

[LOL The Irony]

Although in a different region entirely, Cardiff-Taunton always seems to be the first to get loco-hauled services on the GWR, this could allow a cascade of DMUs to the North?

More Castle sets to release the 158's?

 

[TheWalrus]

More Castle sets to release the 158's?

It’s a possible solution to enable a cascade to the north.

 

[Anonymous10]

It’s a possible solution to enable a cascade to the north.

But passes gwr the prm issue

 

[LOL The Irony]

But passes gwr the prm issue

Castle sets are already PRM compliant.

 

[Mtrain]

I reckon that they should get the 755s like Greater Anglia. Possibly solve the short platform as they aren’t long but they are bi mode so they could do electric when possible. Maybe.

 

[357 LTSRail]

I reckon that they should get the 755s like Greater Anglia. Possibly solve the short platform as they aren’t long but they are bi mode so they could do electric when possible. Maybe.

Going to be an expensive option though with quite some lead time for delivery, not to mention another class of stock to train on. A CAF civity bimode would be more ideal I think, or even just plain DMUs. Would be nice if Alstom and Eversholt could produce their hydrogen class 321 though, as would be a better package than the class 230 offering from vivarail.