What stock "should" operate Liverpool-Norwich services?

[northwichcat]

As a clue for what could operate Liverpool-Norwich and the length of trains possible, Network Rail are set to extend the following platforms to 144m in CP5:
Liverpool South Parkway Up and Down fast platforms, Widnes, Warrington Central

144m would allow a 6 car Turbostar, 175 or 185 formation.

 

[Topgun333]

As a clue for what could operate Liverpool-Norwich and the length of trains possible, Network Rail are set to extend the following platforms to 144m in CP5:
Liverpool South Parkway Up and Down fast platforms, Widnes, Warrington Central

144m would allow a 6 car Turbostar, 175 or 185 formation.

There's a certain irony that those stations need to be lengthened when nearby stations such as Urmston would easily accommodate trains of that length. The Liverpool - Norwich service passes through Urmston which only deals with local Northern trains, made up of 142s, 150s and the occasional 156.

 

[edwin_m]

There's a certain irony that those stations need to be lengthened when nearby stations such as Urmston would easily accommodate trains of that length. The Liverpool - Norwich service passes through Urmston which only deals with local Northern trains, made up of 142s, 150s and the occasional 156.

Presumably Urmston doesn't have the number of passengers of a large town like Warrington or the interchange potential of South Parkway. If it was a Forces location during WW2 then that might explain why it has longer platforms than other stations on the line.

 

[YorkshireBear]

As a clue for what could operate Liverpool-Norwich and the length of trains possible, Network Rail are set to extend the following platforms to 144m in CP5:
Liverpool South Parkway Up and Down fast platforms, Widnes, Warrington Central

144m would allow a 6 car Turbostar, 175 or 185 formation.

Interesting, I think all their other stops can take 6 cars to Nottingham so... Must be a long term aspiration.

 

[woolwinder]

I travel a couple of times a month on this service between Grantham and Norwich.

Lots of nice ideas on these posts regarding rolling stock. but the infrastructure at the eastern end will still cause problems for years to come.

Ely: All the money is now to be spent on ungrading the King Cross to King's Lynn service. The realignment of the "drive in and reverse out" is not schedule to 2019 at the earlist now.

In 2014 the number of freight trains passing through Ely on the Felixstowe to Nuneaton upgraded link will be 18 per day. This locals say will mean the crossing gates being closed for 40 minutes in every hour!

Stoke Summit tunnel: regularly sit here waiting for ECML intercity late runners (tracks go from 4 to 2 and visa versa). Even at 125 mph wouldn't make up for lost time here.

Norwich station: A part from EML platforms 1,2,& 3, the others are shared by two or more services which means a lot of waiting while they "shuffle the pack" to get the rolling stock in the right order. Plenty of spare room to develop a nice dedicated bay platform for this service.

Travel by road towards the Norwich area on the mostly single carriage A47 is a nightmare. The potential for this route through Peterborough is enormous.

But with crossrail and HS2 soaking up the money little chance of anything happening soon out iin the sticks.

 

[DT611]

Ah failing that, DfT could buy up the stored IE MkIII's and dig out some DVT/DBSO's to use with them for the other end of the train when in "push" mode .

a good suggestion however as far as i know much (probably most of ) the IE MKIIIS are ****ed, they were left out in the open air, the pushpulls at dundawk apparently will be scrapped on site because their in such a bad condition and the ones at waterford aren't much better (scrapping of the waterford rake was supposed to happen a while back but hasn't as far as i know) . their are a couple of rakes in dublin think inchicore works is one place and possibly north wall? its unfortunate a buyer couldn't have been found, at least they would be appreciated and not left to rot because "ah shur we'l buy new trains and itl be grand"

 

[swt_passenger]

But with crossrail and HS2 soaking up the money little chance of anything happening soon out iin the sticks.

Neither are soaking up money from the existing railway either today, or soon. Crossrail is separately funded, and HS2 is yet to start. The latter point has been explained time and again, it is not being paid for out of the normal rail budget.

 

[60008]

a good suggestion however as far as i know much (probably most of ) the IE MKIIIS are ****ed, they were left out in the open air, the pushpulls at dundawk apparently will be scrapped on site because their in such a bad condition and the ones at waterford aren't much better (scrapping of the waterford rake was supposed to happen a while back but hasn't as far as i know) . their are a couple of rakes in dublin think inchicore works is one place and possibly north wall? its unfortunate a buyer couldn't have been found, at least they would be appreciated and not left to rot because "ah shur we'l buy new trains and itl be grand"

Its a shame really mate as these carriages are very comfy inside and you don't hear the drone of the engine underneath. I have been messing about in MS Paint and I thought of something like this for the coaching stock . Imagine a GM 201 class with a Class 92/60 carbody .

 

[DT611]

Its a shame really mate as these carriages are very comfy inside and you don't hear the drone of the engine underneath. I have been messing about in MS Paint and I thought of something like this for the coaching stock . Imagine a GM 201 class with a Class 92/60 carbody .

yes it is a shame, the reason going round for their "storing" was due to the refurbishment costs, however to be honest i don't think they would have needed much of a refurbishment, they could have kept grandfather rights, they were only built in the 80s and had plenty of life left in them, sadly its probably only a matter of time before the scrap men come for them now.

 

[60008]

yes it is a shame, the reason going round for their "storing" was due to the refurbishment costs, however to be honest i don't think they would have needed much of a refurbishment, they could have kept grandfather rights, they were only built in the 80s and had plenty of life left in them, sadly its probably only a matter of time before the scrap men come for them now.

I hope the RSPI (hope I got that right) can salvage a set. Just out of interest, have you ever visit Toton Traction Depot? There is quite a few Class 60's including my beast stored there due to time when EWS neglected the fleet. But fortunately though, they are making a comeback as DB Schenker are refurbishing most of them for further use with 60066 being the latest one to come back after so long of being unused .

I thought as much as weren't the IE MkIII's built around 1987/1988? I think there was a BREL export demonstrator set as well which had the 9 saloon windows instead of the 8 like the ones here .

 

[DT611]

I hope the RSPI (hope I got that right) can salvage a set.

i think they would take a set if they had an airbreaked loco, think only the 201 and some of the 071 class can work most of them, all though i believe the baby gms (well the 121 class anyway) could operate the push pull sets

Just out of interest, have you ever visit Toton Traction Depot? There is quite a few Class 60's including my beast stored there due to time when EWS neglected the fleet. But fortunately though, they are making a comeback as DB Schenker are refurbishing most of them for further use with 60066 being the latest one to come back after so long of being unused .

sadly not, good to hear the class 60s are being put back into use, long may they work.

I thought as much as weren't the IE MkIII's built around 1987/1988?

1980/1984 to 1989, apart from the international set, they were built at inchicore works (sadly they were the last trains built in ireland) i think a mark 3 1979 built mark 3 carrige was purchased and refurbished to a catering car also but i can't confirm this for definite.

I think there was a BREL export demonstrator set as well which had the 9 saloon windows instead of the 8 like the ones here .

yes, i believe it operated the dublin galway line, it was known as the Cú Na Mara (hound of the seas) set

 

[jopsuk]

Ely: All the money is now to be spent on ungrading the King Cross to King's Lynn service. The realignment of the "drive in and reverse out" is not schedule to 2019 at the earlist now.

In 2014 the number of freight trains passing through Ely on the Felixstowe to Nuneaton upgraded link will be 18 per day. This locals say will mean the crossing gates being closed for 40 minutes in every hour!

With the level crossings at Ely, the one at the station should relieved (once it is built) by the Southern Bypass- this will take all the produce lorries off of Station Road. It won't of course sort the Queen Adelaide crossings, and there will still be one on the old Lynn Road.
For those not familiar, in Queen Adelaide, north of Ely, there are in quick succession separate crossings for the Peterborough, Kings Lynn and Norwich lines. Oddly the quiet loop allowing trains from Peterborough to Norwich to avoid Ely has a bridge.

 

[woolwinder]

Neither are soaking up money from the existing railway either today, or soon. Crossrail is separately funded, and HS2 is yet to start. The latter point has been explained time and again, it is not being paid for out of the normal rail budget.

In October according to public accounts (that tax pays money) HS2 spent £200,000 on PR and £250,000 on PR "advice" from KPMG. This is from the public purse that pays for everything from normal railway funding to school dinners subsidy.

 

[trains2064]

A Black 5 and a rake of 9!

No only kidding I'm with you on a 5car 221 or 222.

 

[fowler9]

I always find it interesting to hear people saying trains should avoid Warrington or not stop at South Parkway. Warrington is the biggest town in Cheshire and South Parkway is now a very popular stop. What is the option, stop out at St Helens Junction in the middle of no where or just not stop at all?

 

[dk1]

I travel a couple of times a month on this service between Grantham and Norwich.

Lots of nice ideas on these posts regarding rolling stock. but the infrastructure at the eastern end will still cause problems for years to come.

Ely: All the money is now to be spent on ungrading the King Cross to King's Lynn service. The realignment of the "drive in and reverse out" is not schedule to 2019 at the earlist now.

In 2014 the number of freight trains passing through Ely on the Felixstowe to Nuneaton upgraded link will be 18 per day. This locals say will mean the crossing gates being closed for 40 minutes in every hour!

Stoke Summit tunnel: regularly sit here waiting for ECML intercity late runners (tracks go from 4 to 2 and visa versa). Even at 125 mph wouldn't make up for lost time here.

Norwich station: A part from EML platforms 1,2,& 3, the others are shared by two or more services which means a lot of waiting while they "shuffle the pack" to get the rolling stock in the right order. Plenty of spare room to develop a nice dedicated bay platform for this service.

Travel by road towards the Norwich area on the mostly single carriage A47 is a nightmare. The potential for this route through Peterborough is enormous.

But with crossrail and HS2 soaking up the money little chance of anything happening soon out iin the sticks.

No chance of a dedicated platform at Norwich. That would be a ludicrous idea. Works perfectly well as it is now with the hourly EM service departing 3B with the Cambridge service arriving/departing 3A whilst it's being cleaned.

One of the major improvements of the Kings Cross-Kings Lynn route is Ely North Junction re-doubling. This will massively benefit all TOCs & Freight operators.

 

[northwichcat]

I always find it interesting to hear people saying trains should avoid Warrington or not stop at South Parkway. Warrington is the biggest town in Cheshire and South Parkway is now a very popular stop. What is the option, stop out at St Helens Junction in the middle of no where or just not stop at all?

Warrington Central is eventually set to get a half-hourly service to Sheffield and beyond (opposed to an hourly to Norwich and an hourly to Scarborough interworked.) TPE will eventually have a half-hourly Liverpool to Newcastle Intercity style service via Chat Moss which will run non-stop between Liverpool and Manchester.

The Calder Vale semi-fast is also likely to be extended to Chester via Warrington Bank Quay to give Runcorn East and Warrington Bank Quay 2tph to Chester and Manchester. (I'm not sure on whether it's set to include Earlestown and Newton-le-Willows calls.)

 

[ALEMASTER]

I think the current class 158 units are about right for Liverpool-Norwich - high seating capacity for the majority making one hour or less hops between neighbouring cities including the large numbers of commuters but also comfortable enough for the long distance travellers.

It should be kept in mind the state of the infrastructure east of Peterborough where anything heavier than a 15x or 170 is subject to quite low speed restrictions - a 222 would be subject to the lower limit which adds about half an hour to journeys if I remember correctly.

Also those advocating 170s - these have no corridor connection and pretty much everything north of Nottingham on this route runs as a double unit.

I think East Midlands Trains have got it right on the rolling stock front, its little things that could improve the experience and I think what needs concentrating on for this route is
- ensure stock is maintained well including air conditioning, toilets, tray tables etc
- on board service - how about a trolley catering service for the entire route rather than just Liverpool-Nottingham?
- customer service - things like including in station announcements about the rear two coaches getting detached at Nottingham so passengers for Norwich don't have to move!

I guess in the longer term it is worth considering what will replace the 158s that can suitably cater for the passenger mix on this route without compromising the quality of the experience.

I also think some infrastructure upgrades, especially east of Peterborough, would be useful to get journey times down on this long distance express service - or at least allow heavier rolling stock.

 

[edwin_m]

I think the current class 158 units are about right for Liverpool-Norwich - high seating capacity for the majority making one hour or less hops between neighbouring cities including the large numbers of commuters but also comfortable enough for the long distance travellers.

...

I think East Midlands Trains have got it right on the rolling stock front, its little things that could improve the experience and I think what needs concentrating on for this route is
- ensure stock is maintained well including air conditioning, toilets, tray tables etc
- on board service - how about a trolley catering service for the entire route rather than just Liverpool-Nottingham?
- customer service - things like including in station announcements about the rear two coaches getting detached at Nottingham so passengers for Norwich don't have to move!

I agree with most of this although I'd say the average journey was a bit longer. I'd guess those boarding at Nottingham would be similar numbers for Manchester and Sheffield plus a fair number for Liverpool.

Getting people in the right portion of the train is complicated by the fact it reverses at Sheffield so announcing front/rear before there just confuses people. I think they should just get some window labels "This part of the train runs between Liverpool and Nottingham. Please use coaches lettered A and B for stations beyond Nottingham." and leave them on the C/D unit all day.

Trains starting at Nottingham often set out with wrong coach letters and no seat reservation tickets. I suspect the duty hours are a bit too tight and the guard isn't given enough time to do these before departure. I think it's also a shame that these 158s weren't given wi-fi and power sockets in the recent refurbishment, as there are a good number of passengers using laptops.

 

[a good off]

One of the major improvements of the Kings Cross-Kings Lynn route is Ely North Junction re-doubling. This will massively benefit all TOCs & Freight operators.

Ely West Curve bi-directional working will also be brought into use next year too. Only 22 years late... The West curve double track quite often had trains passing on it right up to the very end! Very short sighted.

 

[northwichcat]

I think the current class 158 units are about right for Liverpool-Norwich - high seating capacity for the majority making one hour or less hops between neighbouring cities including the large numbers of commuters but also comfortable enough for the long distance travellers.

It should be kept in mind the state of the infrastructure east of Peterborough where anything heavier than a 15x or 170 is subject to quite low speed restrictions - a 222 would be subject to the lower limit which adds about half an hour to journeys if I remember correctly.

Also those advocating 170s - these have no corridor connection and pretty much everything north of Nottingham on this route runs as a double unit.

I think the ideal stock long stock would be something like 3 car 175s running in multiple with corridor connections (which the 175s don't have.) The one problem with the 158s is the door width considering there are some major stations as intermediate calling points, in particular Manchester Piccadilly.

 

[bunnahabhain]

- customer service - things like including in station announcements about the rear two coaches getting detached at Nottingham so passengers for Norwich don't have to move!

Because people don't listen to them and the majority of people going through tend to have advanced purchase tickets and so should be sat in coach A or B, but generally because they seem "full" and its a long walk from where they are on the platform they get on in C or D and then have a panic and a flap between Sheffield and Nottingham.

Also, the sets reverse at Sheffield (sometimes) and so its not always the front two going through, likewise when running via Oakham its the rear two that go through.

 

[dosxuk]

It would be a start if the people putting out the seat reservation at Liverpool knew which unit continued on from Nottingham. Twice I've had to abandon my reserved seat to go and fight for a seat in the packed front two cars.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Surely leaving Liverpool it is the back two carriages?

 

[northwichcat]

Surely leaving Liverpool it is the back two carriages?

I would have thought so but the Norwich train is quite often in front of the Northern unit which will run the following stopping service. Therefore it's advertised as 'front train only' so maybe some people take that too literally and go to the front train where there are 2 joined up.

Sometimes when Hull trains are advertised as front train only at Manchester Piccadilly it means not the Northern unit (at the back) and not the TPE 170 (in front of it) but the TPE 170 (in front of that.)

EDIT: I think I misinterpreted your post.

 

[edwin_m]

Surely leaving Liverpool it is the back two carriages?

Normally the front two leaving Liverpool are dropped off at Nottingham, having in the meantime become the rear two on reversal at Sheffield. Occasionally the opposite applies, if for example the unit scheduled to go through develops a fault. To my knowledge reservations are only ever intended to be in the unit that run through to Norwich - but I've seen them put on the wrong unit at least once.

 

[dosxuk]

Surely leaving Liverpool it is the back two carriages?

Not by the time I get on at Sheffield and you can confirm with the guard the reservations are in the wrong place.

 

[Haydn1971]

Heading to Nottingham on a EMT 158 - I've said it before but what a pleasure these are beside the grotty rubbish 158 that Northern run. It's not a busy service in the day, my carriage has just a dozen people on, the other three carriages looked a little busier. Refreshment cart, man picking up the rubbish as well ! Odd carriage lettering C-D-A-B.

The 158's seem fine on a mainline, pity they are just awful in the northern franchise and on the back lines through Barnsley / Kirkgate etc

I wonder if the solution to Northerns pitiful trains is to pair up some services with the mainline providers, so you get ECML, MML & WCML running both express and semi-fast services, then push the local stopper services to the PTE ran Rail North franchise ?

Sadly - 3hrs later.... On a Northern 158 back to Sheffield :-/

 

[David Goddard]

There are a number of themes coming up here:
Capacity on the whole route in terms of seating and infrastructure.
Split sections of the train.

A large number of people using this route board or alight at Ely, having connected from elsewhere in East Anglia.
A solution would be to operate a four car 158 from Liverpool to Ely, where the train will split with the front two coaches to Cambridge and the rear two to Thetford and Norwich.
This would require four additional Class 158s in addition to the current service, effectively plugging the Nottingham-Cambridge section.
You could also then reduce the dwell time at Nottingham as no split/join will be required, instead taking place at Ely where there is already a decent dwell due to the reversal.

 

[43074]

There are a number of themes coming up here:
Capacity on the whole route in terms of seating and infrastructure.
Split sections of the train.

A large number of people using this route board or alight at Ely, having connected from elsewhere in East Anglia.
A solution would be to operate a four car 158 from Liverpool to Ely, where the train will split with the front two coaches to Cambridge and the rear two to Thetford and Norwich.
This would require four additional Class 158s in addition to the current service, effectively plugging the Nottingham-Cambridge section.
You could also then reduce the dwell time at Nottingham as no split/join will be required, instead taking place at Ely where there is already a decent dwell due to the reversal.

As I suggested in post #44:

What about more variety in terms of origin or destination points? For example splitting and joining at Ely or Peterborough to serve more East Anglian destinations like Cambridge or Ipswich. You would need ~ 5 more 15x units to do that though. (3 EMT 158s per day are used on local services, so you would need to replace these and then aquire 2 more 158s for maintenance/spares.)