It's all well and good saying that cutting back the Cleethorpes service to Doncaster is for the greater good but this leaves Cleethorpes with services to Barton, Newark and Doncaster. Hardly thriving metropolises
I
think that there are two options:
- Cleethorpes' service to Manchester Airport is replaced by a roughly hourly 158 as far as Sheffield (and Hull's Sheffield service is extended through the Hope Valley to Manchester - e.g. the two "fast" services on the Thorne - Doncaster - Sheffield route switch)
- The hourly Sheffield - Meadowhall - Doncaster - Scunthorpe service is extended to Cleethorpes in place of the TPE service so that there's just one train an hour from Doncaster to Scunthorpe
Option one would be better, I think that option one is more likely - I can't see Cleethorpes/ Grimsby losing their direct service to Meadowhall/ Sheffield.
I know that some contributors to this thread won't want *either* of these options (and would prefer the status quo), but I think that the idea of "Greater Grimsby" losing all services beyond the ECML is unrealistic.
Exactly! More Pacers for Cleethorpes I say, then they can match West Coast resorts like Southport that already suffer a 142 plague!!
In fact if Northern took over where TPE left, you just cannot rule out a 142 appearance at Cleethorpes..
Off topic, but do Pacers ever do the Barton line? I know its normally 153 operated.
I think that Pacers do work to Cleethorpes on the Saturday "Brigg" services, but it's been a while since I've seen one of those in Sheffield.
If more 170s are needed, get a new DMU order in sharp for other areas with 170s, cascade and refurb these and fit new cabs and gangways as needed.↲
I don't think we'll see any new (pure) DMUs ordered for another decade. We'll get some bi-mode trains, but if CP6 sees sensible electrification to fill in the gaps between CP5 schemes (like Hope Valley, Sheffield to Doncaster...) then we'll have enough "modern" DMUs to run all unelectrified routes after 2024, meaning we can withdraw all 1980s DMUs.
Why build new DMUs today when they'll only be needed for a third of their thirtyish year lifespan?
Seriously....the DfT say there is not heavily loaded services between Clee and Grimsby. Have they not travelled on some Saturdays when a 2 car 170 is laid on and it is standing room only from Scunthorpe onwards ????
I'm sure that there are some services where a two coach DMU isn't enough capacity for everyone to have a seat, but there are plenty of routes like this that see daily capacity problems
That is fair enough. It still is damning on the DfT for knowing these issues have existed presumably for a fair while and yet orders for new stock have remained at the low that they have.
Reshuffling stock around the network really doesn't get to the crux of the problem that needs to be sorted.
The thousand-ish miles of CP5 electrification, plus the hundreds of coaches freed up by Thameslink/ Crossrail plus IEP... this is going to be the biggest leap forward we've seen for a generation
As much as I like to have a good moan about the DfT both as a customer and as a consultant who uses their budgets, growth has come as a bit of a surprise to everyone, coupled with the biggest cuts to government spending in a generation, coupled with poorly considered franchise terms that may have seemed a good idea a decade ago, but not now...
We are on the brink of a big revolution, 1000's of new units for the South East, GWML & ECML will push old stock around the rest of the network, most won't be happy with what cast offs are allocated to their route, but gradually the situation will move into a more positive situation, with EMU's from the south displacing major DMU's routes in the north, other DMU services being strengthened or provided with better stock, making way for further electrification as new fleets come to the regions - which they will - it's a fantastic future ahead, it's just a pig that it's taking so long :-/
Agreed.
It's a shame that we were in the position that we were in, but we are taking a good route out of it - sadly most of the reactions on here have been sniffy ones about "London cast-offs", rather than appreciating the large capacity increases that we are going to see overall
post electrification dreams we are told, it will not likely be acceptable to operate diesel under the wires so the Sheffield-Cleethorpes express option is probably a non starter
I think it'll still happen - maybe with a 158 rather than a 185, probably not running west of Sheffield, but us folk in South Yorkshire would be most upset to lose our link to Sheffield On Sea!
There will still be diesels operating under the wires in future, in the way that the suggestion of Scarborough to Blackpool will run under wires from York to Leeds (and Preston to Blackpool)...
...it's just that we'll see some services rejigged in line with the electrification map (just like Scarborough to Manchester being chopped since it'd be under the wires for 75% of the route).
I think a difficult question for the DfT in terms of Cleethorpes is, if the electric spine is such a great idea for freight, why isn't electrification of a line which sees such a large proportion of UK railfreight on the agenda?
Interesting point, Ian.
The cynic in me thinks that freight was a nice way of "selling" the electrification plans in "middle England" (freight is vastly outnumbered by passenger services, and there's no guarantee that FOCs will switch to electric - especially when they'd need various yards/ sidings etc to be wired too) - it looks nice and green to wire lines in the name of freight, even if we don't think it'll mean many freight trains give up their 66s.
Hopefully by the end of CP5, enough routes will be electrified to release enough DMUs to cover shortage of stock on non electrified routes due to unprecedented growth but it will be a rough ride (Pacers) for many beyond non compliant 2020.
We don't want to newbuild DMUs when electrification is the way forward. We need to electrify routes that will release the maximum number of diesel units as fast as possible and not pratt about with panels of MPs deciding which route justifies upgrading.
Agreed
ind of makes you wonder why we didn't electrify our network at the same time most of the reat of Europe was. I know it is more complicated, easier said than done.
Ideally we would have - we've never had much of a long term plan, sadly. But I think that we are doing the right thing now (it just means cutting some long established links, like Cleethorpes to Manchester Airport).
I do think that this is the start of what many politicians and DfT officials still believe to be the execution of some unfinished business of the 1960s; namely the reduction of the railway to a mythical/viable*** 7000 mile core and the lower specification for some of the more peripheral sections away from this core is part of a softening up process designed to lead people into the acceptance of the bright exciting rubber tyred future.
*** read as applicable.
I think that you are wrong, possibly scaremongering - if there's no political will to close basket case stations (Teesside Airport) or basket case lines (Stockport to Stalybridge) then I can't ever imagine somewhere with a six figure population like Greater Grimsby being downgraded to a bus service.
I'm not saying that Grimsby/ Cleethorpes will see a better service than today's baseline (e.g. it'll probably lose its 185s, it'll probably lose most/all of its Manchester services), but it won't be consigned to just a rail replacement bus service.