What stock will Scotrail procure to replace HSTs?

[Transilien]

FLIRT sucks. Proper trains are better.

So IETs are better?

 

[Sorcerer]

i am just going to say it will be a mistake. I am done with this convo. FLIRT sucks. Proper trains are better.

What might be "proper trains" to you is just a fake train to someone else because the term is almost meaningless. Some people could just as well argue that any stock built from the first diesels aren't proper trains because they aren't big beautiful steam engines hauling coaches. For what it's worth I'm glad the industry doesn't operate with the same mindset or we'd have never progressed beyond cable-hauled wagons.

 

[Vectron383]

i am just going to say it will be a mistake. I am done with this convo. FLIRT sucks. Proper trains are better.

So essentially, you have no good reason to smear these trains and have to resort to calling them ‘unproper’ or whatever else.


Is it possible you were on a bid team that lost to the 755?

 

[BlueLeanie]

Have Stadler categorically stated that they will accept no further orders and produce no further MK 5 stock for the UK market?

Seems to me Scotrail should be hiring some in right now, whilst they are off-lease, to test them for performance, staff feedback, and customer feedback.

As for 220/221/222 units, if a battery capable of delivering 700kW can be slung under an 802 unit, then there should be some consideration made to replacing a Voyager/Meridian engine with a battery too. Maybe under the DMS's on a 5 car unit to leave three diesel powered coaches? Would make a massive difference to the exit from Queen Street and Waverley with 40% fewer engines but all of the oomph.

 

[800001]

Have Stadler categorically stated that they will accept no further orders and produce no further MK 5 stock for the UK market?

Seems to me Scotrail should be hiring some in right now, whilst they are off-lease, to test them for performance, staff feedback, and customer feedback.

As for 220/221/222 units, if a battery capable of delivering 700kW can be slung under an 802 unit, then there should be some consideration made to replacing a Voyager/Meridian engine with a battery too. Maybe under the DMS's on a 5 car unit to leave three diesel powered coaches? Would make a massive difference to the exit from Queen Street and Waverley with 40% fewer engines but all of the oomph.

CAF make the Mk5.

 

[cf111]

The more I see and read of these "FLIRTs" the more I like them. I've never had a chance to travel on one as they are used well away from my usual stomping grounds. A 100mph capable version sounds like it would work well in Scotland.

Can passengers walk through the "power pack" in the centre of the train on the diesel powered 231s?

 

[D6975]

Have Stadler categorically stated that they will accept no further orders and produce no further MK 5 stock for the UK market?

Mk 5s are CAF.

 

[800001]

The more I see and read of these "FLIRTs" the more I like them. I've never had a chance to travel on one as they are used well away from my usual stomping grounds. A 100mph capable version sounds like it would work well in Scotland.

Can passengers walk through the "power pack" in the centre of the train on the diesel powered 231s?

Yes you can walk through the power pack, and they have power sliding doors at each end.
Thrash Pod is the nick name for them.

 

[sprinterguy]

Can passengers walk through the "power pack" in the centre of the train on the diesel powered 231s?

Yep, in common with the other power pack fitted Stadler units in the UK.

 

[Vectron383]

Have Stadler categorically stated that they will accept no further orders and produce no further MK 5 stock for the UK market?

Seems to me Scotrail should be hiring some in right now, whilst they are off-lease, to test them for performance, staff feedback, and customer feedback.

As for 220/221/222 units, if a battery capable of delivering 700kW can be slung under an 802 unit, then there should be some consideration made to replacing a Voyager/Meridian engine with a battery too. Maybe under the DMS's on a 5 car unit to leave three diesel powered coaches? Would make a massive difference to the exit from Queen Street and Waverley with 40% fewer engines but all of the oomph.

I would be very, very surprised if they decide to start tinkering with batteries in 20+ year old diesel units- especially if they can’t get Alstom on board (Bombardier, who made the 22Xs, have since been taken over). It has all the potential of a ‘we gave the HST a new engine as a cheaper stopgap’ situation all over again.

The more I see and read of these "FLIRTs" the more I like them. I've never had a chance to travel on one as they are used well away from my usual stomping grounds. A 100mph capable version sounds like it would work well in Scotland.

Can passengers walk through the "power pack" in the centre of the train on the diesel powered 231s?

Greater Anglia’s FLIRTs are already 100mph capable, so no issues there as far as ScotRail is concerned.

 

[ld0595]

Have Stadler categorically stated that they will accept no further orders and produce no further MK 5 stock for the UK market?

Seems to me Scotrail should be hiring some in right now, whilst they are off-lease, to test them for performance, staff feedback, and customer feedback.

I can't see any further MK5 stock being used unless bi-mode locomotives were procured with them.

Whatever the replacement stock is, I strongly suspect it will be some sort of bi-mode unit - probably a conventional diesel / electric bi-mode that has provision to swap engines out at a later date for battery packs.

I can't see a huge amount of wiring going up between now and 2030 between the Central Belt and Aberdeen/Inverness, however I still believe the approach is still to wire up the easy bits when funding allows, then focus on the difficult areas later. Having diesel engines in the interim will be a good stopgap until gaps can be filled with battery power instead.

 

[Vectron383]

Another FLIRT advantage- a diesel power pack could be swapped out for a battery power pack with ease.

 

[HamBuoy]

Those are from the literal other side of the world, so they’d essentially be buying a new design with the associated higher costs. Plus I imagine there’d be a substantial redesign needed to take into account the substantial differences between Scotland and Australia.

But designed and built in Spain which is this side of the world. Based on a platform which is already in service in the UK.

Doesn’t look too far off what is being asked for really. Bi-mode with buffet facilities and improved accessibility.

https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/projects/current-projects/regional-rail

 

[Bletchleyite]

But designed and built in Spain which is this side of the world. Based on a platform which is already in service in the UK.

Doesn’t look too far off what is being asked for really. Bi-mode with buffet facilities and improved accessibility.

https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/projects/current-projects/regional-rail

If going CAF it'll probably just be the Class 897 which already seems to have a few potential orders.

 

[Vectron383]

If going CAF it'll probably just be the Class 897 which already seems to have a few potential orders.

Out of interest what potential orders do you see for them? (Mods feel free to remove if off topic)

 

[Railperf]

Ok with one door per carriage you add some dwell time. But you also make loading and unloading wheelchairs, heavy luggage and bikes a lot quicker. And you virtually eliminate the risk of trips and falls when boarding/alighting. I'd say that's worth some extra dwell time.

I reckon boarding a 745 is quicker than for a Class 80x or 22x

 

[Bletchleyite]

Out of interest what potential orders do you see for them? (Mods feel free to remove if off topic)

Confirmed for LNER, being possibly mooted for Grand Central.

 

[Railperf]

The 755/4 variant with 4 engines is as quick as an EMU in diesel mode and will cruise around at 100mph all day. The CAF bi-mode ordered by LNER seems to be based on the 397 - which has the worst ride quality of any main line train I have ever ridden. If ScotRail want to retain passengers and attract more leisure travel, the FLIRT is a much better product even if it is more expensive.

 

[Energy]

Is it possible you were on a bid team that lost to the 755?

The poster is real and has been on this forum for a while. Going by their previous use of “vote kicked”, I presume they are young.

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

Back on topic, I predict ScotRail will go out to tender, the usual suspects will submit bids, the range of in-production designs is obvious, and the cheapest compliant whole-life bid will win.

This being Scotland, it would be quite on-brand for a political demand for some unnecessary requirement to be incorporated as 100% essential in the design brief. Limiting options and increasing costs.

Though with the current budget situation, I’m also thinking there’s likely to be a preference for second hand.

Has anyone considered hauling 385s as push-pull stock?

 

[class26]

i am just going to say it will be a mistake. I am done with this convo. FLIRT sucks. Proper trains are better.

It is beyond me how you can say a FLIRT sucks when you have never ridden on one. This is laughable, pointless and worthless criticism

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

It is beyond me how you can say a FLIRT sucks when you have never ridden on one. This is laughable, pointless and worthless criticism

To be fair, the overt trainspotter bias is at least honest. I can respect that.

A lot of the praise for old trains (HSTs) and criticism of newer ones on this forum really does stem from trainspotters.

 

[Falcon1200]

Personally I would prefer 'proper' trains, ie Class 40 + 7 Mark 1/early Mark 2 coaches, for the Glasgow and Edinburgh/Aberdeen and Inverness services, but as that is unlikely the Flirts, on which (unlike some) I have actually travelled would IMHO be an excellent choice, with the proviso that seating should be adequate and comfortable for their intended use.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Greater Anglia’s FLIRTs are already 100mph capable, so no issues there as far as ScotRail is concerned.

Does that apply to diesel mode?
I note TfW's diesel-only 231s are 90mph units.
While nice trains, the 231s seem to me to be utilitarian internally (seat spacing etc), and not suitable for long-distance work.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does that apply to diesel mode?
I note TfW's diesel-only 231s are 90mph units.
While nice trains, the 231s seem to me to be utilitarian internally (seat spacing etc), and not suitable for long-distance work.

That's because they were specified for short-distance work. What seats you choose to put in a unit, and what paint scheme you use internally*, are easily changed to be appropriate to the work.

I personally think PKP's IC FLIRTs are one of the most pleasant long distance trains I've ever used, and I spent a good 5 hours on one. They could look similar to that.

* TfW's interior scheme is beyond drab, they really need to stick some fake wood or Welsh scenery on those grey panels before someone decides that tagging them is a better option.

 

[nwales58]

Other manufacturers should be similar, for Stadler you only need look at the range of KISS (double decker) units. Even within SBB there are suburban fairly utilitarian layouts and longer distance very nice ones. All it needs is for the customer to a) know what they really need and b) be able to afford it. Chances of both in the UK?

 

[Trainbike46]

I wonder though with all recent publicity with Tanni Grey-Thompson and the issues at Kings Cross will push level boarding to the forefront of the bid.

How many suppliers would have level boarding models ready for uk production?

Stadler will, obviously

I've heard CAF had offered a level-boarding design to LNER, but it wasn't selected.

Siemens has stated they could offer level-boarding

Have Stadler categorically stated that they will accept no further orders and produce no further MK 5 stock for the UK market?

I'm sure CAF would be willing to build more, but I doubt any ROSCO would be willing to finance it.

The more I see and read of these "FLIRTs" the more I like them. I've never had a chance to travel on one as they are used well away from my usual stomping grounds. A 100mph capable version sounds like it would work well in Scotland.

not only are there already 100mph capable FLIRTs in service, the GA ones were reported to be upgradeable to 110mph if later required. The FLIRT platform is also available for up to 125mph in Europe.

Does that apply to diesel mode?
I note TfW's diesel-only 231s are 90mph units.
While nice trains, the 231s seem to me to be utilitarian internally (seat spacing etc), and not suitable for long-distance work.

yes, the 100mph applies to diesel mode as well as electric.

TfW made some budget choices, including getting 231s rather than bimode. the 745/0 at GA have a more IC interior design, including a buffet, first class, and comfy seats

 

[nwales58]

... the GA ones were reported to be upgradeable to 110mph if later required. The FLIRT platform is also available for up to 125mph in Europe.

plus a related 250 km/h design in production.
So speed, layout, interior etc are not a problem.

Cost is, unless no-one else can satisfy the parameters. For instance your hot and noisy bus engines can be in a micro-vehicle where they are easier to cool and maintain properly than in under-floor designs. And you can remove it when you've remembered to put the wires up in 10 years' time.

 

[SamCam]

I'm sitting on The Chieftain now and, while much has been said about the Azumas, I find it far more comfortable and pleasant than any 385 I've ever been on.
And after a delay because of a fallen tree near Blair Athol the catering team have done an extra couple of runs with both the hot and cold drinks.
I still believe that unless ScotRail manage to specify and obtain something of a reasonable standard, and provide a good service with it, many travellers from the North will continue to look to The Chieftain as the first choice.

I actually think the 385s are great, at least as a commuter train for journeys up to an hour. The standard class seats are more comfortable to me than those on the Azumas (especially with the latter starting to collapse). It's almost as if the A-train platform is better suited to the commuter rail products that it is mainly used for in Japan....

But that is not an argument in favour of using a 385 derivative to replace the HSTs! Hopefully the budget allows for something genuinely suited to the task, ideally a FLIRT.

 

[Energy]

I actually think the 385s are great, at least as a commuter train for journeys up to an hour. The standard class seats are more comfortable to me than those on the Azumas (especially with the latter starting to collapse). It's almost as if the A-train platform is better suited to the commuter rail products that it is mainly used for in Japan....

I think the 385 suffers from an uninviting interior.

It combines:

• Dark flooring
• Dark seats
• Poor use of the national flag - the Scotrail livery and logo uses it well but the seat moquette looks poor
• Flat looking seats, with no differing headrest.
• Utilitarian yellow grab handles - the colour of which does not correlate with the rest of the train.

Most trains have at least some of these, particularly dark flooring, but few combine all.

For comparison, the Southern class 377/6 & /7 feature dark flooring and no headrest but the seat moquette is much lighter and the grab handles are a lighter green which fits with the seats.

The rest of the train is reliable but unremarkable. The Passenger Information System uses dot matrix rather than LED screens and the motored bogies are outside framed & heavy. At least Hitachi were finally convinced into using plug doors.

The 385s also took quite a while to finally enter service.

The 385s are good, reliable trains but if I was on the Scotrail bid team at the time I’d have to get an increadible price from Hitachi to order them over more 380s. Supposedly First’s bid was more 380s and improved probably-170s rather than the HSTs.

But that is not an argument in favour of using a 385 derivative to replace the HSTs! Hopefully the budget allows for something genuinely suited to the task, ideally a FLIRT.

Agreed. A well equipped FLIRT would be excellent for Intercity, but their often lower capacity means they aren’t my first choice for a commuter train.