What swings the balance for you between a direct service and one where you change?

[SteveM70]

Based on previous conversations on similar topics with my parents and my sister, none of whom are “railway savvy” the biggest single factor is ease of use.

I can remember my dad saying how him and my mum hate changing at stations they don’t know, and they worry about missing connections, either because the inbound train is late or because they can’t find the platform.

 

[Geoff DC]

Living in Penzance, if I was going to Bristol or beyond, I would regularly get a GWR HST to Newton Abbott & change there to the XC HST Plymouth/Glasgow service.

Coming back, I was quite happy to wait over an hour for the GWR HST back to Penzance as there is a good pub right by the station.

Since the IET's have been in service, I'll get the XC from Penzance these days as 1st on a voyager is - in my mind - better than 1st on a GWR IET.

Going to Gatwick I'll change at Reading to avoid London, a place I now avoid at all costs as it's just so busy 24/7.

 

[HowardGWR]

I travel between Bristol and Surrey fairly frequently. The obvious option would be Temple Meads - Paddington then Tube to Waterloo. However, this usually costs over £25 one way even booked in a month or two in advance.

Instead I opt for the slower direct SWR service via Salisbury and change at Woking for a stopper. I’ve booked a first class ticket on this service for as low as £9 with a railcard. When you factor in the time it takes to travel from Paddington to Waterloo the SWR service doesn’t appear that much slower. Besides, I find 158/9s far superior in terms of comfort to an IET!

I empathise a lot with that. I live in 'Wessex' and for Gatwick I have a choice of the Exeter to Waterloo from Crewkerne on a 159 or Weymouth to Waterloo from Dorchester on a 444 (change at CLJ onto a 377) or change at Southampton onto a Victoria 377 via Barnham. Having a railcard, the first two cost over £50 off peak return and the last approx £22 off peak return. Thus it really is no contest and it takes about 3 1/2 hours either way, so via Barnham it is. The 444 is the most comfortable but you don't want to get stuck in the 5 a side in the 377, so learning where the 4 a side is helps.

 

[FQTV]

That question really got me thinking about how I make that decision, and it's not simple...

View attachment 79192

Coincidentally, that's almost exactly the thought process that I'm going through at the moment for a particular trip. Assuming some sort of pre-Covid service levels, it's:

Depart Newcastle 08:40 < direct > Arrive Plymouth 15:47

Or:

Depart Newcastle 08:27 < via London > Arrive Plymouth 16:12

In both cases, I am then travelling on to Gunnislake, so the final arrival time will be the same either way, at 17:20, and it would be in First.

Considerations:

Direct service to Plymouth is with CrossCountry, on a Voyager. First Class service is complimentary 'snacks'.

Indirect service is with LNER and GWR, both on IETs. First Class service would be cooked breakfast on LNER, and then the 13:04 from Paddington is the Pullman Dining lunch train.

Ignoring pricing for the moment, as Advance fares aren't currently available for my intended date of travel, I am erring towards indirect. On an Anytime basis, direct is £380.40 and via London is £387.00, as an aside.

However, if I leave Newcastle an hour earlier, the service to Plymouth would be an HST (again, in normal times). Might that tip the balance towards it?

And what if there's still no catering on either or both LNER or/and CrossCountry. It's getting on for nine hours however you cut it, so does getting on and nesting with multiple picnics and no lugging luggage appeal more than potentially queueing for more supplies in London.

Decisions, decisions!

 

[Jamesrob637]

Coincidentally, that's almost exactly the thought process that I'm going through at the moment for a particular trip. Assuming some sort of pre-Covid service levels, it's:

Depart Newcastle 08:40 irect> Arrive Plymouth 15:47

Or:

Depart Newcastle 08:27 <via London> Arrive Plymouth 16:12

In both cases, I am then travelling on to Gunnislake, so the final arrival time will be the same either way, at 17:20, and it would be in First.

Considerations:

Direct service to Plymouth is with CrossCountry, on a Voyager. First Class service is complimentary 'snacks'.

Indirect service is with LNER and GWR, both on IETs. First Class service would be cooked breakfast on LNER, and then the 13:04 from Paddington is the Pullman Dining lunch train.

Ignoring pricing for the moment, as Advance fares aren't currently available for my intended date of travel, I am erring towards indirect. On an Anytime basis, direct is £380.40 and via London is £387.00, as an aside.

However, if I leave Newcastle an hour earlier, the service to Plymouth would be an HST (again, in normal times). Might that tip the balance towards it?

And what if there's still no catering on either or both LNER or/and CrossCountry. It's getting on for nine hours however you cut it, so does getting on and nesting with multiple picnics and no lugging luggage appeal more than potentially queueing for more supplies in London.

Decisions, decisions!

Neither GWR nor XC are particularly famous for cheap singles. LNER on the other hand...

Would you have much luggage? 4 stops on the Metropolitan or Circle Line from Euston Square to Paddington I believe.

From Manchester to Plymouth I usually drive. However once I changed in Birmingham to an HST and it was worth the wait.

 

[yoyothehobo]

I have always had mixed feelings, a few years ago i had to travel weekly from Bramley to Kendal. The fastest way in the early hours was to get a train to Leeds, to Man Pic, to Preston, to Oxenholme, to Kendal. My preferred version was to get the train to Bradford, change to a Preston train, then get the same train I would have done from Preston. THe extra connection times making a difference, allowing time to get some breakfast or a coffee.

The return journey I would get Kendal-Ox-Lancaster, then Lancaster to Leeds via Skipton, and then out to Bramley again.

In that case it was the reliability of the connections on the outwards journey, whilst on the way back i took the longer journey but not having to worry about time of getting anywhere.

(I didnt have to worry about price of these). I will also generally get a cheaper train and delay a journey by an hour

 

[peteb]

I've done Wolverhampton to Newcastle several times via virgin WCML to Carlisle then change for Northern rail to Newcastle, as opposed to a local via Birmingham New St then cross country all the way, or even cross country to Manchester then transpennine to Newcastle. Cost was main consideration for via Carlisle but also scenic route and more or less guaranteed a seat whether or booked or not.

 

[Master29]

I would go to Scotland via London from the South West as 1) I enjoy the journey and 2) I try and never use Cross Country. Not because of Voyagers but simply because their extortionate rates between South West and North East even with advanced tickets.

 

[Huntergreed]

It depends, anything over 30 mins quicker, I’ll generally take if I’m taking a journey for business/speed.

If I’m travelling for leisure, I often take lengthy detours (London - Glasgow via Birmingham and Manchester for instance).

In the eyes of the public, they’ll change if that’s the quickest option, or the option that comes up on the booking engine. Other than that I can’t imagine many normals knowing enough about the network to make use of lesser known shortcuts.

 

[jfollows]

I would travel via London (and have done) for Manchester-Bristol/Plymouth, Manchester-Reading/Southampton & Manchester-Norwich. At a push, Manchester-Oxford. The time difference probably means that Manchester-Cardiff I will take a direct train. The trains via London are more comfortable, stop fewer times and generally have more free seats. I also don't much like the offering by Cross-Country, and in particular I strongly dislike the idea of sitting in an unoccupied and unreserved seat and subsequently finding it reserved at the last minute.

 

[jfollows]

I'm perfectly happy to go London-Wilmslow changing at Crewe or Stockport, if I've got an open ticket and just happen to turn up at Euston at the right time. I'll use the xx.07 Liverpool and change at Crewe or the xx.00 Manchester and change at Stockport. I won't use the xx.10 Chester because I don't like Voyagers very much, I know a lot of people here don't like Pendolinos but I'm not one of them, even when I'm not using First Class.

(NB the direct train is the xx.40 departure from Euston)

 

[Metal_gee_man]

So it's speed vs convenience vs seat
If I'm at St Pancras I need to get to Wimbledon, do I Victoria line to Vauxhall SWR to Wimbledon, choose a line down to the district line and then district line it or do you put up with the 30 min interval Sutton Loop Thameslink service.
I'm both lazy because I've just jumped off a SE HS service and the Thameslink platforms are 3 mins walk away, I'm happy to waste a few minutes for a direct service and happy because generally you'll get a seat all the way to Wimbledon.

Equally if I was going long distance, a change or 2 made wouldn't bother me if it made my journey shorter or considerably cheaper (as long as it doesn't add over 1hr to my journey) I'm happy to play about.
Equally a station change would stop me changing i.e Moor St to New St or locally a Canterbury East to Canterbury West change

 

[DDB]

When I saw the thread title I nearly replied with one word. Luggage.

I do think airports are a special case for having direct trains from lots and lots of places.

The is one exception if I'm travelling long distance on holiday, first class I will sometimes choose a non direct with separate advances which may be cheaper but importantly I get two meals!

 

[xotGD]

If travelling on Transpennine Express I'll change in order to get a loco hauled train for part of the journey. This often means changing at York, so also gives a chance for a few photos around the station and a coffee from Filmore and Union.

Otherwise I'll change if it means a faster journey, as long as I'm not leaping from a train with seats available to one where I have to stand. But with lots of luggage I would stay put.

 

[HowardGWR]

When I saw the thread title I nearly replied with one word. Luggage.

I do think airports are a special case for having direct trains from lots and lots of places.

The is one exception if I'm travelling long distance on holiday, first class I will sometimes choose a non direct with separate advances which may be cheaper but importantly I get two meals!

Yes, I forgot to mention that in my earlier posting. Changing from Dorchester at Southampton for the Victoria train to Gatwick, one at least has lifts to take one over to the middle platform, when one has airport luggage. If it's on time, one can avoid even that by staying on the platform for the GWR train and getting out of that at Fareham, where one can pick up the following train on the same platform, namely that which one would have had to cross the station for, at Southampton. It's little details like this that can make a journey less tiresome.

 

[swaldman]

An example of a case where operator reliability is a big influence: From Hull to London, I can get a direct train (if Hull Trains survives COVID :-/) or I can change at Doncaster. Changing only adds a little time, and sometimes gives more convenient departure and arrival times. And I basically never do it.

The reason for this is that the first leg from Hull to Doncaster is on Northern. And Northern's reliability is so terrible that if I want to be confident of arriving in London on time I have to catch the *previous* Hull->Doncaster train.

 

[vlad]

I think my mood at the time of booking the tickets is pretty much all that swings it!

Going into a bit more detail, I do take journey time, cost, comfort, rolling stock, etc. into consideration - but I may well choose a different route on a different occasion even if all the other variables are identical. Variety also seems to be something I take into account!

For example, I've done Stoke to Exeter direct, changing in Birmingham and changing in London (via Virgin and Great Western - I haven't done via South Western yet; I'd like to but I will need to think about the journey time).

 

[3141]

The important factors for me would be luggage, getting a seat, and reliability would apply if I couldn't afford to risk not getting there on time.

I don't often do journeys where there's a choice. The ones where I do have a choice are:

1) Overton to Manchester. I can change at Basingstoke and then go all the way by XC. Four hours on a Voyager is a long time. It's about the same length of journey to go to Waterloo, get the Northern Line to Euston, and then get Virgin Avanti. That breaks the journey up, but the Underground bit can be a pain. There's more chance of a cheap first class advance on the West Coast, and first is more comfortable.
2) Overton to Gatwick. Either go to Clapham Junction and change, or to Woking, then Guildford, then GWR North Downs line. The second one offers a better chance of a seat, but if I'm catching the plane that day and not staying overnight before the flight, the two changes introduce a greater risk of delay.
3) Overton to Heathrow. I can't do it direct, but there are several routes involving changes. Overton to Woking and then Railair coach is the most direct, but the timetable means a wait of 50 minutes at Woking and if I want terminal 4 the coach doesn't go there. So go to Waterloo, and then....there are several possibilities. Booking in advance gets me a relatively cheap fare on HEX and Waterloo to Paddington is direct on the Bakerloo Line. The Piccadilly Line is cheap, but getting to that from Waterloo means either two changes or routes with a single change that are awkward with luggage. Easiest is probably Bakerloo to Paddington and then what's now TfL Rail and may one day be Crossrail Elizabeth Line or if it hasn't opened in time may need to be renamed Charles Line.

 

[Ant158]

Going from Clitheroe to Leeds, I always change at Blackburn and get the York Service rather than going via Manchester as the journey planners suggest is quicker. Prefer to do one short and one long journey. Also connections at major stations don’t always happen and I go for journeys where I’m more likely to have a seat even if the journey is longer.

 

[route:oxford]

It depends on so many things.

Going off-track a little. It's not much different from flying. I go to Washington DC about once a year. Now, I could fly direct into IAD - but I choose not to. For approximately the same price and for a journey that technically takes 2 hours longer, I fly into BOS, EWR, JFK or YYZ then take a Domestic flight into DCA.

The big difference is that it avoids all the hassle with the mobile lounges (look them up if you've never been), then IAD security is almost as slow as Heathrow, then you have to take a Silver connect coach, and then you finally get on the underground. Whereas at DCA I arrive as a Domestic passenger, I walk out the front door and walk straight to my hotel in Crystal City.

But going back to the railways.

Unless your local station is a major station on a key Inter-City route, and your destination station is similar, there aren't that many direct routes to choose from.

From here to Birmingham...

Do I have a cross-platform change at Haymarket, or Waverley, or do I cross the centre of Glasgow?
There's more shops at Glasgow and Waverley, but I can have a short connection at Haymarket.
It's August, the Edinburgh Festival is (usually) on, Haymarket and Waverley will be hell.
It's a month with a vowel in it, It'll be absolutely gishing it down in Glasgow, I'll get soaked.
It's before 9am, it'll be priced by Cross Country...


Notes.

IAD - Washington Dulles
DCA - Washington Ronald Reagan
BOS - Boston
EWR - Newark
JFK - John F Kennedy, New York
YYZ - Toronto

 

[Horizon22]

Normally crowding levels for me and time. In my location I've normally got a whole range of options to reach the London terminal I want. Whilst I generally am not travelling at peak times, the time spent waiting at the connection seems like "extra" time. I'd rather take a 40 minute direct service than a 30-35 minute service with a change that adds a performance risk. But sub 30 mins then I'd be happy to do so although if the connection is c. 5 mins that again is a risk I'll actually end up delayed further.

For the underground its frequency, especially under the current timetable.

 

[ScotTrains]

An example of mine was Manchester to Glasgow , direct but overcrowded 350 or change at Preston or Wigan onto a bigger pendo. Usually changed .

I try to go for the best 1st class offer. Glasgow to Manchester changing at Preston with Avanti gives lounge access at both stations and dinner/alcohol onboard.

I used the direct TPEx Nova thing a few months ago (before lockdown) and all I got was one measly bit of cake for the whole journey leaving at dinner time on a weekday. It's often dearer too!

I usually also buy an extra cheap 1st advance for the TPEx Preston to Manchester leg as the Avanti +connections part isn't valid on TPEx and Northern don't do 1st class. Overall it still ends up cheaper (than the direct TPEx service) with a far better first class experience, even with the extra change.

 

[urbophile]

Another thing is the relative length of legs (if you see what I mean!). Going from my home station in Liverpool to West Yorkshire, for example, I could take a fastish train to Manchester Piccadilly and change to another such. Or I could take a local train (ten minutes) to Liverpool Lime Street and then a through express. The amount of time/hassle spent on the respective changes is much the same, but with the latter it is all sorted before the main part of the journey during which I can settle down. The first way, neither leg is long enough to really relax into the journey.

 

[py_megapixel]

Another thing is the relative length of legs (if you see what I mean!). Going from my home station in Liverpool to West Yorkshire, for example, I could take a fastish train to Manchester Piccadilly and change to another such. Or I could take a local train (ten minutes) to Liverpool Lime Street and then a through express. The amount of time/hassle spent on the respective changes is much the same, but with the latter it is all sorted before the main part of the journey during which I can settle down. The first way, neither leg is long enough to really relax into the journey.

Oh I thought you meant you'd prefer a train with more legroom (or a longer walk to stretch your legs!) when I read the first sentence!

 

[Mikey C]

A number of factors probably go through my mind, such as...

1) Price - if I can get much cheaper advance tickets by changing rather than taking the direct route (or vice versa)
2) Schedule - many of the direct services (to the likes of Hull or Sunderland) are far less frequent than the competing indirect routes and thus might not be convenient
3) The specific types of train used and which I prefer OR which one I might fancy for the "novelty" factor
4) Which route is more interesting or "novel"
5) Getting a seat - if by changing I then might have difficulty in getting a seat on my second train, that would obviously be a negative
6) Do I fancy changing somewhere because I'd like to visit it for a brief sightseeing stop or because it has a great pub on the station or nearby!
7) And conversely, are the connections good if I change, i.e. not too tight or too long (if I don't want to sightsee or visit a pub!)

 

[route101]

I would go to Scotland via London from the South West as 1) I enjoy the journey and 2) I try and never use Cross Country. Not because of Voyagers but simply because their extortionate rates between South West and North East even with advanced tickets.

Yeah XC never have cheap advances Scotland to SW.

 

[Purple Orange]

Time, frequency, comfort & overcrowding are the factors.

• I used to travel between Manchester & Newcastle regularly, where I would usually change at York or Leeds, rather than sit on the direct train. Upon arriving at the station, unless the direct service was leaving first, it made little sense to me to wait for the next direct train when I could get the first train to York, then the first onward train.
• This would be the same issue with travelling to Bristol from Manchester, where if the first train leaving Piccadilly was a Reading bound service, I would get that then change at Birmingham on to what would be a train from Leeds/Newcastle.
• Going to Scotland, I would do the similar by getting a service to Preston or Wigan, then a Pendolino to Scotland, if the direct hourly Scotland service was not leaving Manchester anytime soon.
• If a service is too full and standing, if I have time on my side I am likely to get off at an appropriate station then get the next service that comes along. Even on a short journey like Leeds to Manchester, the train arrives mostly full, a further train load of people get on and by the time the train gets to Huddersfield, I’m tempted to get off and get the next one.

Overall I value high frequency and the ability to plan my journey around my day, rather than my day around my journey, above anything else, coupled with a distrust of the railway to get me from A to B efficiently. If I didn’t place value on public transport, want to see clean electric services and I turned a blind eye to the pollution that cars generate, I would not use the train.

I would like the national rail network to be a bit more like a metro in style, whereby there are certain long distance high frequency corridors, which I feel like I can rely and trust the service (lets say 4 tph minimum) intersecting at certain major rail hubs, where I can change on to another high frequency rail corridor.

 

[py_megapixel]

5) Getting a seat - if by changing I then might have difficulty in getting a seat on my second train, that would obviously be a negative

That's a good point actually. If I have a flexible ticket and I'm travelling long distance at a busy time, then I may well choose to stay on a particular train longer if I've managed to bag myself a seat. For example some CrossCountry journeys have multiple options of where to change so I will work it out based on where I'm likely to get a seat.

 

[route101]

I try to go for the best 1st class offer. Glasgow to Manchester changing at Preston with Avanti gives lounge access at both stations and dinner/alcohol onboard.

I used the direct TPEx Nova thing a few months ago (before lockdown) and all I got was one measly bit of cake for the whole journey leaving at dinner time on a weekday. It's often dearer too!

I usually also buy an extra cheap 1st advance for the TPEx Preston to Manchester leg as the Avanti +connections part isn't valid on TPEx and Northern don't do 1st class. Overall it still ends up cheaper (than the direct TPEx service) with a far better first class experience, even with the extra change.

Yeah , never done TPE first class , for that reason not much on offer. They were supposed to improve the offer on new stock at somepoint,

 

[Bensonby]

When I was a student in my final year in Manchester back in 2007/2008 I used to go home weekly to London as I was doing a weekend course to line me up for my job after uni. Obviously, a weekly trip for several months could be prohibitively expensive for a student. I found out that there was a very cheap advance option taking the train to Sheffield or Nottingham and then changing for a St Pancras train. I remember it cost about £5 each way which was half the cost of the virgin advance with my railcard. It took about an hour longer but time wasn’t an issue. Multiplying this over a dozen weekends it was quite a saving and I bought them all in one go. I remember having a stack of those large over-sized tickets that travel agents used to issue.

so the answer for me it’s a balancing act between cost and how important the time is to me. I now have two excitable toddlers so if I had to do a long train journey with them I’d want it over and done with as quick as possible and would pay for try privilege!