What was the standard CrossCountry HST formation in the 1980s?

[crosscity]

Moderator note: Split from

CrossCountry HST Diagrams

Does anyone know what diagrams CrossCountry currently run their HSTs on? I may be making a trip to the Birmingham area this week and would like to know if I may be able to catch any of them in the area.

www.railforums.co.uk

Fair enough, I hadn't seen that the tour was to be 2+8.

Wasn't 2+8 the standard formation in the 80s? (albeit the eighth was the buffet).

 

[hexagon789]

Wasn't 2+8 the standard formation in the 80s? (albeit the eighth was the buffet).

XC sets were always 2+7.

Originally:

Class 253 (WR + NE-SW) - 2+7
Class 254 (ER + ScR) - 2+8

Some WR sets for the West of England were extended to 2+8 from about 1986.

Otherwise only the ECML/MML sets were 2+8 until ECML electrification freed up additional sets for the Western and CrossCountry services. Then the Western began standardising on 2+8, but XC sets remained 2+7.

 

[Taunton]

I seem to recall it was 1 First, 1 Buffet, 5 Standard.

 

[crosscity]

XC sets were always 2+7.

Originally:

Class 253 (WR + NE-SW) - 2+7
Class 254 (ER + ScR) - 2+8

Some WR sets for the West of England were extended to 2+8 from about 1986.

Otherwise only the ECML/MML sets were 2+8 until ECML electrification freed up additional sets for the Western and CrossCountry services. Then the Western began standardising on 2+8, but XC sets remained 2+7.

I knew some were 2+8. Thanks for clarifying which routes had which sets. I never actually counted how many coaches there were.

 

[APT618S]

I seem to recall it was 1 First, 1 Buffet, 5 Standard.

This is how I remember them on introduction in the early 1980s.

 

[GS250]

Most were 2+7.

I think the only variable was that I'm not sure that they had a fully comprehensive mk3 catering vehicle? Didn't they have the 'Buffet-Bar' type vehicles as seen on the ECML?

 

[hexagon789]

I knew some were 2+8. Thanks for clarifying which routes had which sets. I never actually counted how many coaches there were.

No problem. Privatisation brought far more variation.

I seem to recall it was 1 First, 1 Buffet, 5 Standard.

This is how I remember them on introduction in the early 1980s.

For NE-SW sets:

DM - Power Car
TGS - Trailer Guard Second
4 TS - Trailer Second
TRSB - Trailer Restaurant Second Buffet
TF - Trailer First
DM

Most were 2+7.

I think the only variable was that I'm not sure that they had a fully comprehensive mk3 catering vehicle? Didn't they have the 'Buffet-Bar' type vehicles as seen on the WCML?

The NE-SW sets had a TRSB (branded Buffet Bar-125 as introduced; the earlier TRSB were branded Buffet only until around 1979); the WCML Mk3 sets had either a Mk3 RUB (branded Restaurant Buffet, later InterCity Restaurant Buffet) (identical to HST TRUB), which were later upclassed to First Class RFB around the same time as the ER upclassed its TRUB/TRUK, or a Mk1 RKB or sometimes RB/RBR.

 

[Rescars]

No problem. Privatisation brought far more variation.



For NE-SW sets:

DM - Power Car
TGS - Trailer Guard Second
4 TS - Trailer Second
TRSB - Trailer Restaurant Second Buffet
TF - Trailer First
DM


The NE-SW sets had a TRSB (branded Buffet Bar-125 as introduced; the earlier TRSB were branded Buffet only until around 1979); the WCML Mk3 sets had either a Mk3 RUB (branded Restaurant Buffet, later InterCity Restaurant Buffet) (identical to HST TRUB), which were later upclassed to First Class RFB around the same time as the ER upclassed its TRUB/TRUK, or a Mk1 RKB or sometimes RB/RBR.

Did TRUBs and TRUKs both have seating? Mk1 RBRs frequently had spectacularly uncomfortable moulded fibreglass seats, whilst RKBs had a lot of kitchen space and buffet customers had to make do with just a shelf-like table attached to a pole.

 

[hexagon789]

Did TRUBs and TRUKs both have seating? Mk1 RBRs frequently had spectacularly uncomfortable moulded fibreglass seats, whilst RKBs had a lot of kitchen space and buffet customers had to make do with just a shelf-like table attached to a pole.

Yes, 17 and 24 unclassified respectively. The same 2+1 seats as in First Class hence them later being upclassed to First.

The TRUB had a buffet and a kitchen, the TRUK just a large kitchen with a serving hatch.

Originally there was only the TRUK and TRSB (all sets having both), but perceived overprovsion of catering in WR sets led to the TRUB being designed - effectively a combination of a TRUK and TRSB. The WR TRUKs went to the ER and the WR then had either a TRSB or TRUB it's sets. The TRSB being in sets diagrammed to shorter routes generally.

Most ER/ScR sets kept their dual catering vehicles (TRUK + TRSB) a little longer (though even there the sets used on the Newcastle (later Doncaster) semi-fasts were usually just a TRUB.

By 1985 most sets only had one catering vehicle, the ER standardising on TRFB - upclassed TRUBs.

The WR was slightly later in reclassifying its TRUBs to First Class, but it also fitted TRSBs with First Class seats, making TRBs.

By 1987, only the two Pullman sets on the ER had two catering vehicles - a TRFK and a TRFB.

 

[Taunton]

As I understand it, the inclusion of a seating code (F, S or U for First, Second or Unclassed) is what indicates if there was a seating area, and what type of seats were fitted (regardless of actual usage). Ones like RKB did not have this.

buffet customers had to make do with just a shelf-like table attached to a pole.

I wrote here a while ago of an afternoon trip in 1962 returning from the Ostend ship through Dover to Victoria, where we went along in the (new at the time) 4-BEP to the buffet. My mother was appalled at the lack of ambience in there, so far from traditional standards, and "Have to Swing round a Pole" was a pejorative expression devised on the spot which thereafter was used pretty much for the rest of time to describe BR buffet car layouts. As we were used to a "nice" afternoon tea in the NE-SW express (keeping us on the Cross Country topic) between Bristol and Taunton, just under an hour, when returning from a shopping day, it was indeed a dismal contrast. The one item of rail interest I youthfully recall was the BEP buffet had a plate saying it was the first such with air conditioning, and a gricers' detail website somewhere identifies the vehicle.

 

[louis97]

When Arriva re-introduced HST sets on winning the franchise in 2007 the XC sets initially, after all the work was done, ran in 2+8 formation, I think this lasted around 3-4 years. The sets were then reduced to 2+7 and the extra trailers became spare vehicles. I think this also coincided with tightening up of the HST running times on some of the route, where specific XC 2+7 timing loads were created.

 

[33017]

As I understand it, the inclusion of a seating code (F, S or U for First, Second or Unclassed) is what indicates if there was a seating area, and what type of seats were fitted (regardless of actual usage). Ones like RKB did not have this.



I wrote here a while ago of an afternoon trip in 1962 returning from the Ostend ship through Dover to Victoria, where we went along in the (new at the time) 4-BEP to the buffet. My mother was appalled at the lack of ambience in there, so far from traditional standards, and "Have to Swing round a Pole" was a pejorative expression devised on the spot which thereafter was used pretty much for the rest of time to describe BR buffet car layouts. As we were used to a "nice" afternoon tea in the NE-SW express (keeping us on the Cross Country topic) between Bristol and Taunton, just under an hour, when returning from a shopping day, it was indeed a dismal contrast. The one item of rail interest I youthfully recall was the BEP buffet had a plate saying it was the first such with air conditioning, and a gricers' detail website somewhere identifies the vehicle.

That would’ve been vehicle 69021 in unit 7022. As usual, Bloodandcustard has all the details.

 

[Merle Haggard]

When Arriva re-introduced HST sets on winning the franchise in 2007 the XC sets initially, after all the work was done, ran in 2+8 formation, I think this lasted around 3-4 years. The sets were then reduced to 2+7 and the extra trailers became spare vehicles. I think this also coincided with tightening up of the HST running times on some of the route, where specific XC 2+7 timing loads were created.

I thought that the reduction from 8 to 7 was to do with the load limit of one power car climbing Lickey unaided. There was certainly some 'history' to the use of the freight business's banker by I.C. after Sectorisation...
But the Lickey is not that much steeper than Mr Brunel.s banks in Devon
Because of their spreading-tentacles like network it was obviously difficult for XC to have rescue locos. of their own over such a large area so had to rely on the limp along situation.
That's what I've been told, don't remember the source and maybe completely mistaken.

 

[hexagon789]

I thought it was to run more sets?

I.e. instead of four 2+8, they could have five 2+7, something like that.

 

[43096]

I thought it was to run more sets?

I.e. instead of four 2+8, they could have five 2+7, something like that.

No. There was only ever five each of TF, TCC and TGS in the fleet, so taking a TS out is useless in giving an extra set.

 

[Irascible]

But the Lickey is not that much steeper than Mr Brunel.s banks in Devon

There was ( is? ) a restriction on going up those with a powercar out too.

 

[Taunton]

But the Lickey is not that much steeper than Mr Brunel's banks in Devon

Is it even that?

My traditional understanding was that Lickey is officially 1 in 37, whereas Dainton, the initial two miles west from Newton Abbot, is officially 1 in 36. The difference being the Midland's traditional 'small engine' policy, plus the specific bankers, made it prominent, whereas west from Newton Abbot it's up Dainton, equally steep down the other side, through Totnes as fast as you dare, and then up Rattery, almost as steep as Dainton. Hence assisting locos, main line types rather than bankers, normally worked through from Newton to Plymouth. It is especially bad when there is a scheduled stop in the dip at Totnes, and there are some additional particular issues with steam locos.

 

[hexagon789]

No. There was only ever five each of TF, TCC and TGS in the fleet, so taking a TS out is useless in giving an extra set.

I've since realised I was thinking of Grand Central.

 

[delt1c]

is my memory playing tricks on me or did the original Buffets have proper counters at the seating end

 

[hexagon789]

is my memory playing tricks on me or did the original Buffets have proper counters at the seating end

The counter was at the outer end, then kitchen, staff compartment, then seating:

 

[sprinterguy]

When Arriva re-introduced HST sets on winning the franchise in 2007 the XC sets initially, after all the work was done, ran in 2+8 formation, I think this lasted around 3-4 years.

I think it was a shorter time period that they operated as 2+8 sets. My vague recollections and a photo search suggests they were operating as 2+7 sets by early 2010, so about 14 months after the launch of the first refurbished set at the start of October 2008.

 

[Merle Haggard]

There was ( is? ) a restriction on going up those with a powercar out too.

Certainly was, I remember, when I had a peripatetic Sectorisation job on the W.R., that on the Down a 47 was attached at Exeter if the HST was OPCO. It did seem to me a bit hazardous for the guard. And, later, when RfD had its own sectorised fleet of 47s, one was at Bromsgrove to bank the Swindon - Longbridge Rover components trains and it was sometimes commandeered by Swindon power controllers to assist an OPCO HST up the Lickey on the interpretation of 'in emergency to clear the line'. Destining our loco to York rather than Barnt Green didn't seem to be entirely in the spirit of 'clearing the line', so, to avoid delays to the (just-in-time) components trains they just ran throughout with 2x47; don't know how IC-MXC managed then

OPCO - One Power Car Only; RfD - Rail Freight Distribution.

 

[Davester50]

Yes, 17 and 24 unclassified respectively. The same 2+1 seats as in First Class hence them later being upclassed to First.

The TRUB had a buffet and a kitchen, the TRUK just a large kitchen with a serving hatch.

Originally there was only the TRUK and TRSB (all sets having both), but perceived overprovsion of catering in WR sets led to the TRUB being designed - effectively a combination of a TRUK and TRSB. The WR TRUKs went to the ER and the WR then had either a TRSB or TRUB it's sets. The TRSB being in sets diagrammed to shorter routes generally.

Most ER/ScR sets kept their dual catering vehicles (TRUK + TRSB) a little longer (though even there the sets used on the Newcastle (later Doncaster) semi-fasts were usually just a TRUB.

By 1985 most sets only had one catering vehicle, the ER standardising on TRFB - upclassed TRUBs.

The WR was slightly later in reclassifying its TRUBs to First Class, but it also fitted TRSBs with First Class seats, making TRBs.

By 1987, only the two Pullman sets on the ER had two catering vehicles - a TRFK and a TRFB.

There was also the different branding on the restaurant/buffet cars.
I remember Buffet-Bar 125 on the NE-SW sets, while Restaurant 125 and Restaurant-Buffet 125 appeared on the ER/ScR sets.

 

[hexagon789]

There was also the different branding on the restaurant/buffet cars.
I remember Buffet-Bar 125 on the NE-SW sets, while Restaurant 125 and Restaurant-Buffet 125 appeared on the ER/ScR sets.

Yes, different wording for each vehicle type.

 

[louis97]

I think it was a shorter time period that they operated as 2+8 sets. My vague recollections and a photo search suggests they were operating as 2+7 sets by early 2010, so about 14 months after the launch of the first refurbished set at the start of October 2008.

You might be right, all I was sure about was that it had finished by the year I went to University in 2012.

 

[Irascible]

Certainly was

If only it was more than HSTs. I remember being onboard a 158 - must have been almost brand new - leaving Totnes on one engine & attempting Dainton, and getting checked to a standstill somewhere on the way up. Somehow it eventually made it to the summit...

Let's not derail the thread further though

 

[nw1]

There was also the different branding on the restaurant/buffet cars.
I remember Buffet-Bar 125 on the NE-SW sets, while Restaurant 125 and Restaurant-Buffet 125 appeared on the ER/ScR sets.

Wasn't it also Restaurant Buffet 125 on the WR sets too? I'm sure I remember that.

 

[hexagon789]

Wasn't it also Restaurant Buffet 125 on the WR sets too? I'm sure I remember that.

The branding was vehicle type rather than route specific.

So the TRUBs carried 'Restaurant Buffet 125', the TRSBs carried 'Buffet-Bar 125' and the TRUKs carried 'Restaurant 125'.

Note the '125' was only added from about 1979, so any vehicles in traffic before then just carried the words and the TRSB omitted 'Bar' as well, just carrying 'Buffet'.

 

[nw1]

The branding was vehicle type rather than route specific.

So the TRUBs carried 'Restaurant Buffet 125', the TRSBs carried 'Buffet-Bar 125' and the TRUKs carried 'Restaurant 125'.

Note the '125' was only added from about 1979, so any vehicles in traffic before then just carried the words and the TRSB omitted 'Bar' as well, just carrying 'Buffet'.

Ah ok thanks. It looks from above that the WR had TRUBs or TRSBs so maybe there were some Buffet Bar 125s on the WR too?

 

[hexagon789]

Ah ok thanks. It looks from above that the WR had TRUBs or TRSBs so maybe there were some Buffet Bar 125s on the WR too?

The WR had TRUK and TRSB only initially, they were all that existed.

Very soon, it was realised this was overprovsion having two catering vehicles in each set so the TRUB was developed to offer a dual buffet and restaurant kitchen vehicle.

The WR TRUKs went to the ECML and the WR then had either a TRUB or TRSB its sets.

The 'Buffet-Bar 125' branding appeared from about 1979 as I mentioned, so after that it would've been the standard branding on TRSB vehicles.