What will happen to SWR classes 455, 456 and 458 once the 701s are fully operational?

[SouthEastBuses]

Hi, I am aware that SWR ordered class 701 Aventras to replace the 455, 456, 458 and 707.

I'm aware that the 707s are going to Southeastern, but what will happen to the class 455, 456 and 458?

I believe the 455 and 456 will be scrapped due to them being very old units (with maybe one or two preserved), but does anyone have an idea what will happen to the 458?

I do hope the class 458 doesn't get scrapped because they're just 20 years old and I believe they can still continue their service for about another 20-25 more years.

 

[Prestige15]

It wont be the first time 20 year old trains gets scrapped.

My only two prediction would be Southern (Working alongside 377's on metro routes and replace all the 455's) or a new life as white goods

 

[NSE]

I’d say the 455’s only chance is to go to SN to replace any of their ones that are unreliable and boost some services here and there.

I guess it’s entirely possible the 456’s could go with them in terms of being suitable and gauge cleared. Whether or not it’s worth the faff for a couple of years I don’t know (I know they’re similar, but I assume SN competency would probably have expired by now? And they might have to retrain? Or can a 455 driver instantly do 456 work?)

As for the 458’s, anyone’s guess. I think I read on here that someone suggested the replace the 455’s at SN. Whether that was a casual suggestion or an actual plan that was looked into I don’t know. I commute daily on the Windsor lines and have found the 458’s to be the comfiest seat of all stock.

 

[Prestige15]

I’d say the 455’s only chance is to go to SN to replace any of their ones that are unreliable and boost some services here and there.

I guess it’s entirely possible the 456’s could go with them in terms of being suitable and gauge cleared. Whether or not it’s worth the faff for a couple of years I don’t know (I know they’re similar, but I assume SN competency would probably have expired by now? And they might have to retrain? Or can a 455 driver instantly do 456 work?)

As for the 458’s, anyone’s guess. I think I read on here that someone suggested the replace the 455’s at SN. Whether that was a casual suggestion or an actual plan that was looked into I don’t know. I commute daily on the Windsor lines and have found the 458’s to be the comfiest seat of all stock.

The last time i been on were the original 458's and i couldn't agree more about the seating comfort, Dare i say i find it more comfortable than the first of GWR class 800

 

[swt_passenger]

Was previously discussed here:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/dc-class-455-456-458-465-66-discussion-topic.203761/

It was not very conclusive either...

 

[DJ_K666]

I can see Southern's 313s being replaced by cascaded 455s in the not too distant future. Reason? They're old but still useful, most of the short platforms are 4 car length, especially along the coastway routes. They would probably require less traction training than new stock. They can be DOO operated. Not that I agree with DOO, of course.

 

[Domh245]

The SW 455s are not DOO ready at all, no door controls in the cabs, and there is no in-cab display for PTI monitoring (nor platform based infrastructure along those routes)

 

[SouthEastBuses]

458s would do well on either Southern Coastway lines (for example from Brighton to Littlehampton or Brighton to Eastbourne), or Southern London Metro lines (for example London Victoria to Tattenham Corner)

 

[London Trains]

Scrapped...


Nothing else to say.

 

[computerSaysNo]

Is there scope to convert the 458s into permanent 6 car formation and to OHLE? And how much work would be required to restore their original top speed (90mph?)? As long as the above would produce at least 20x6 car units, they could be used at ScotRail to replace the current 40x3 car 334s on the Airdrie-Bathgate line (which mostly run as 2x3 cars anyway).
The 334s could then be used to partially replace the 318/320 fleet.
The disadvantages of this are the cost of putting the 458s through another conversion project, retraining staff for them, and the scrapping of 318/320s which have recently been refurbished.

 

[Mikey C]

It would seem a bit unfortunate to have elderly 313s (with no toilets) operating the Coastway services when newer 458s are being scrapped.

 

[SouthCentral10]

I reckon it's likely that all the classes will end up being scrapped. The next Southern franchisee (or contractor?) Will most likely order a single class to replace the 313s and 455s. That way they would have a simple fleet of electrostars and most likely aventras.

 

[David Goddard]

My personal thoughts are that the 458s should be moving to Southeastern, and the 707s go to Southern, to replace the 313s and provide extra capacity.
They could share Three Bridges depot with their Cl700 cousins

 

[London Trains]

The next Southern franchisee (or contractor?) Will most likely order a single class to replace the 313s and 455s. That way they would have a simple fleet of electrostars and most likely aventras.

I'd expect Southern to order a reasonably high amount of 10x20m Aventras for the metro services to replace the 455s and displace the 377s, allowing the 4+4+3 formations to be split, with the 4 coach trains joining to make 12 coach services for the BML and the 3 coach trains joining to make 6 coach services for the coastways, replacing the 313s. I'd also expect the MK service to increase to 2tph in the next franchise, with some of the displaced 377s being used on these services.

 

[swt_passenger]

My personal thoughts are that the 458s should be moving to Southeastern, and the 707s go to Southern, to replace the 313s and provide extra capacity.
They could share Three Bridges depot with their Cl700 cousins

The problem is the Southern part of TSGN has no commitment to replace any of their older stock during the present management contract.

 

[David Goddard]

The problem is the Southern part of TSGN has no commitment to replace any of their older stock during the present management contract.

Oh well only another fourteen months, and it will take that for the 701s to be in full service to release all of the current stock.

 

[Journeyman]

The SWR 455s are pretty ancient although have updated traction equipment and are vastly superior internally to the Southern units. However, as others have said, it's likely that the Southern 313s and 455s will be replaced by a common single fleet, likely the Aventra.

458s will go for bean cans. However decent they are, they're non-standard and I can't see any potential use for them. I very much doubt ScotRail will want them, and a lot of units not much older face uncertain futures too.

 

[JonathanH]

I'd expect Southern to order a reasonably high amount of 10x20m Aventras for the metro services to replace the 455s and displace the 377s, allowing the 4+4+3 formations to be split, with the 4 coach trains joining to make 12 coach services for the BML and the 3 coach trains joining to make 6 coach services for the coastways, replacing the 313s. I'd also expect the MK service to increase to 2tph in the next franchise, with some of the displaced 377s being used on these services.

Some displacement of 377s appears likely but I doubt we will see 6-car 377s on the Coastway. I also doubt that 2tph of Southern services north of Watford Junction is likely. Which displaced 377s are going to be used? Most of the 377/2 fleet is already committed to this service.

I agree that 458s are probably too non-standard to play a role with Southern.

 

[London Trains]

Some displacement of 377s appears likely but I doubt we will see 6-car 377s on the Coastway. I also doubt that 2tph of Southern services north of Watford Junction is likely. Which displaced 377s are going to be used? Most of the 377/2 fleet is already committed to this service.

6 car 377s might not be seen on the coastways often - they may be used as 3 car a lot though. With nowhere else to go (no 10 car formations will be needed), its between having 4x3coach 12 coach formations or being used on the coastways. With lots of displaced 4 coach units, I dont believe 3 coach units will be needed to make 12 coach formations, so it would make sense to use them on the coastway.

For the MK services, I would expect the 377/7s, mostly currently used on the metro services with the DC only 377/6s, to be used to increase the service. Currently due to the 1tph frequency, 8 car formations using the 377/2s are needed. With 2tph, some 5 coach 377/7 services would be possible.

 

[randyrippley]

Post-Corvid demand is going to be so reduced that finding a use for all the new stock will be hard, without worrying about the old redundant stuff. The only chance of getting anything approaching full use of the new stock is by an expansion of third-rail electrification: Basingstoke-Exeter, Southampton-Bristol, Westbury-Weymouth, maybe Exeter-Exmouth. Plus any infill gaps.
There's going to be a massive oversupply of third-rail stock old and new. If you want to use it, you'll have to create the routes to run it on

 

[CBlue]

Post-Corvid demand is going to be so reduced that finding a use for all the new stock will be hard, without worrying about the old redundant stuff. The only chance of getting anything approaching full use of the new stock is by an expansion of third-rail electrification: Basingstoke-Exeter, Southampton-Bristol, Westbury-Weymouth, maybe Exeter-Exmouth. Plus any infill gaps.
There's going to be a massive oversupply of third-rail stock old and new. If you want to use it, you'll have to create the routes to run it on

As mentioned in other threads, it's unlikely ORR will sanction expansion of 3rd rail on that scale.
In that oversupply scenario, all the BR era stuff and the 458's will be scrapped. Newer electric multiple units are capable of having pantographs fitted and I'd argue that's more likely than third rail to Bristol and Exeter!

 

[JonathanH]

As mentioned in other threads, it's unlikely ORR will sanction expansion of 3rd rail on that scale.
In that oversupply scenario, all the BR era stuff and the 458's will be scrapped. Newer electric multiple units are capable of having pantographs fitted and I'd argue that's more likely than third rail to Bristol and Exeter!

30 of the 36 458s have pantograph wells, not of course that that of itself means they could be easily convertible to pantograph operation.

There was at one point in their history speculation that they could be converted although it may have been unfounded.

 

[Fincra5]

Personally I feel 458s would be a good fill to replace 313s, at least in the interm.

It all depends on ther DfT as to when/ if new stock is ordered for the NEW Franchise, whenever that is. That all takes time.. Time for Contracts. Time to Build. Time to Test. We're talking years before 313s would actually go in that case. Something, I'm not so sure, they have left...

Also something to look at is the economic downturn since the pandemic. Perhaps its sensible to try and use re-use stock thats not all that old.

 

[Energy]

With possible replacement of 313s with 458s, it depends on Southeastern, if the next franchise decides to transfer the 377s back to Southern (I believe they already have Southern interior) in favour of new trains then they would allow a cascade of 3 car 377s to replace the 313s.

 

[randyrippley]

As mentioned in other threads, it's unlikely ORR will sanction expansion of 3rd rail on that scale.
In that oversupply scenario, all the BR era stuff and the 458's will be scrapped. Newer electric multiple units are capable of having pantographs fitted and I'd argue that's more likely than third rail to Bristol and Exeter!

If faced with the cold facts that there is a surplus of third rail stock and a shortage of diesel stock, and a looming financial depression stopping new builds (quite feasible when the scope of the covid spend becomes clear, and resulting accounting black hole) then I can see Boris and co overriding or replacing the ORR if they don't do what they're told

 

[John Hunt]

If faced with the cold facts that there is a surplus of third rail stock and a shortage of diesel stock, and a looming financial depression stopping new builds (quite feasible when the scope of the covid spend becomes clear, and resulting accounting black hole) then I can see Boris and co overriding or replacing the ORR if they don't do what they're told

That thought is guaranteed to bring on nightmares!

 

[Mikey C]

Has anyone considered converting the 458s to be hybrids/DMUs/Hydrogen stock?

If Alstom are converting 321s to run on Hydrogen, would it make more sense to convert their own 458s, especially as they are newer?

 

[sussexbythesea]

The 458s could only have a use for Southern if they replaced the current 4+3+3 10 car formations on South London Metro Services. The 8-455 services are 8 coaches because platforms between London Bridge and Tulse Hill via Peckham Rye can only accommodate 8 carraiges, so it would probably be better replaced by other 4 car stock (or an internal cascade of 377s). I'm not sure on numbers, but these displaced 4 car and 3 car 377s could move on Coastway services, displacing the 313s?

 

[Fincra5]

The 458s could only have a use for Southern if they replaced the current 4+3+3 10 car formations on South London Metro Services. The 8-455 services are 8 coaches because platforms between London Bridge and Tulse Hill via Peckham Rye can only accommodate 8 carraiges, so it would probably be better replaced by other 4 car stock (or an internal cascade of 377s). I'm not sure on numbers, but these displaced 4 car and 3 car 377s could move on Coastway services, displacing the 313s?

Lack of DOO equipment on the 458s makes that a no go. The cost would be too high for train bourne DOO equipment. Station Equipment isn't suitable or placed for 10car operation.

 

[David Goddard]

Has anyone considered converting the 458s to be hybrids/DMUs/Hydrogen stock?

If Alstom are converting 321s to run on Hydrogen, would it make more sense to convert their own 458s, especially as they are newer?

Lovely idea, but given the can of worms they opened when they did the last rebuild I doubt it would be even investigated.