What would an itemized bill look like for building a new railway?

[richieb1971]

Business Case Studies - Please breakdown
Planning and Permissions - Please breakdown
Bureaucracy - Please breakdown
Materials - Please breakdown
Contracting - Please breakdown

And anything else.

Thanks

 

[daikilo]

Business Case Studies - Please breakdown
Planning and Permissions - Please breakdown
Bureaucracy - Please breakdown
Materials - Please breakdown
Contracting - Please breakdown

And anything else.

Thanks

It is impossible to answer without more information such as the traffic to be catered for, length, number of tracks, speed, stations, whether it is to run through built-up areas, power source and many other considerations. There is a fair amount of info on say the Borders Railway or the HS2 threads and much more if you go to their dedicated websites.

If you are genuinely interested then I recommend you come up with a real concept to study, but you will probably be asking others to do what could be an interesting bit of generic research work of your own.

In terms of accuracy, the nearest billion should be OK unless the line is really short.

 

[AM9]

Business Case Studies - Please breakdown
Planning and Permissions - Please breakdown
Bureaucracy - Please breakdown
Materials - Please breakdown
Contracting - Please breakdown

And anything else.

Thanks

You've omitted the first and most important item, namely the land on which to build it. Not simple task as you will need a very long piece that will be bought from lots of different landowners. Not all of them will want to sell and those that do will extract a high price, especially in commuter areas.

 

[coppercapped]

Long.

 

[daikilo]

Richie, you might want to read this for HS2:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...nt_data/file/365065/S_A_1_Economic_case_0.pdf
as it actually gives an indication of what to think about, and some numbers. It's about 3 years old so you probably need to double or triple some of them.

These paragraphs will be particularly relevant to your work:
3.5.3 The base cost estimate was generated from bottom-up design and cost information, and represents a ‘most likely winning tender’ price. It includes assumptions about scope and rates; assumptions about potential value engineering savings; and assumptions about potential efficiency savings.
3.5.4 The QRA uses stochastic modelling to allow the cost uncertainties to be represented by ranges rather than single values, and the inclusion of events that may or may not occur. Each input is assigned one or more representative probability distributions which are sampled when the simulation is run.
3.5.5 A simulation consists of a large number of re-calculations (iterations) of the cost estimate. For each iteration, a single cost is sampled from the range of possible costs for each item (tolerance or threat) included in the model. The sampled cost values are added together to give one possible value of the project’s total cost. This total cost is saved and the next iteration is calculated with a different set of samples, and so on until enough iterations have been performed to allow the ‘basket’ of possible total costs to stabilise statistically.
3.5.6 The simulation produces a range of possible total costs which are usually presented as a cumulative frequency distribution, or s-curve. The s-curve shows the probability that a given cost will not be exceeded. P50 and P95 costs are typical quoted values from the s-curve. P50 is short-hand for the 50th percentile. The P50 cost is the cost for which there is a 50% chance of not being exceeded. The P95 cost has a 95% chance of not being exceeded.

You may prefer to start with a simpler project, say an Ordsall curve look-alike somewhere in the countryside.

 

[richieb1971]

For the record, I just want the itemized headings that are likely to be on the list. I'm not interested in the amounts they cost.

Like on a telephone bill you have -

X amount of calls over 5 mins - £x.xx
X amount of calls under 5 mins - £x.xx

 

[daikilo]

For the record, I just want the itemized headings that are likely to be on the list. I'm not interested in the amounts they cost.

Like on a telephone bill you have -

X amount of calls over 5 mins - £x.xx
X amount of calls under 5 mins - £x.xx

Even so, there are details like whether you have tunnels or viaducts, stations, rolling stock, land take etc and how much break-down you want. You can't buy a tunnel off the shelf! There will be, possibly, thousands of entries for that alone, multiplied by the number of tunnels.

Why are you asking this question, please; it is extrememly complex for which consultants will work years and take a hefty fee?

 

[richieb1971]

I'm trying to learn about what makes the cost of something what it is.

If I am not mistaken it costs the British public approximately £8m per mile of double track. I'm just wondering where that money goes in % terms. But first I asked for a breakdown of itemized billing.

I just want a layman's terms kind of breakdown, I'm not asking for War and Peace.

 

[deltic]

Business Case Studies - Please breakdown
Planning and Permissions - Please breakdown
Bureaucracy - Please breakdown
Materials - Please breakdown
Contracting - Please breakdown

And anything else.

Thanks

It would probably look like

Strategic land use and transport study which identifies the need for the railway
Outline options report - examines at a high level options for routing, demand for service and cost of provision - will involve some basic transport modelling
There are then three different levels of business case which hone in in ever grreater detail on the preferred option based on detailed transport modelling and engineering design
Then go for planning consent which depending on the scheme could either be a Hybrid Bill such as for HS2/Crossrail, Transport and Works Act eg Northern Line Extension, local planning permission for a new station etc
Once permission is granted the next stages depends on the type of contract entered into- in essence you either tell the contractor what output you are looking for and get them to design, build and possibly maintain and operate it or you design it and get a contractor to build it.
However, planning permission is likely to place a number of constraints on the construction process which will heavily impact on costs and possibly materials to be used. It may require use of a certain number of apprentices and proportion of spend to go to small businesses.
Construction is not my area and others can set out the processes used to quantify materials, timescales etc

 

[Tim M]

I depends on if the line concerned is new or existing being upgraded. A simple split three ways is a good place to start, e.g. Civil engineering, electrical & mechanical systems and project management & approvals.

Civil engineering is earthworks, bridges, tunnels, viaducts, stations etc.

E&M can be split down into trackwork, power distribution, electrification, signalling, communications and station systems such as lighting, ticket machines, heating, air conditioning etc. E&M may also include new trains if required.

Project Management might also include design, (but this could go in with E&M), programme management, site management, construction and plant also technical approvals & safety management etc. This heading would include commercial costs, profit, tax and financing charges.

All the above are notional and dependant on the scope of the job. How this is broken down is also customer dependant. On some overseas jobs (mostly mass transit) for signalling I have filled in schedules of just a page or two for one customer and many hundreds for another.

The extent of the breakdown is also dependant on the stage you are at. When scoping the job the schedule might be quite short, this would be validated as the detail is refined with greater breakdown of costs.

I hope this helps.

 

[daikilo]

As an example, the borders railway is supposed to have cost about 300 million for 35 mainly single-track miles so a little above your value for double track, but this was a mainly existing trackbed and no electrification.

HS2, on the other hand is "green-field" or "urban" and expected to cost 40-50 billion for the first 120 miles so upwards of 300 million per double-track mile. However, inflation is in these numbers I believe.

The track and bed is likely to be similar in cost, apart from the design speed, so the rest will cover all the other items.

 

[The Planner]

FOI a scheme from NR?

 

[deltic]

As an example, the borders railway is supposed to have cost about 300 million for 35 mainly single-track miles so a little above your value for double track, but this was a mainly existing trackbed and no electrification.

HS2, on the other hand is "green-field" or "urban" and expected to cost 40-50 billion for the first 120 miles so upwards of 300 million per double-track mile. However, inflation is in these numbers I believe.

The track and bed is likely to be similar in cost, apart from the design speed, so the rest will cover all the other items.

No the cost quoted is for the full scheme. The cost for Phase 1 is around £10bn in 2011 prices and excluding risk and contingency. Of which civils, structures and tunnels are around a 30%, stations 20%, land 10%, design and getting consent about 10%, programme costs for HS2 and contractors 15%, other costs include depot, connecting to classic network, environmental mitigation etc

 

[daikilo]

No the cost quoted is for the full scheme. The cost for Phase 1 is around £10bn in 2011 prices and excluding risk and contingency. Of which civils, structures and tunnels are around a 30%, stations 20%, land 10%, design and getting consent about 10%, programme costs for HS2 and contractors 15%, other costs include depot, connecting to classic network, environmental mitigation etc

Whilst I see my cost was not just phase 1, the BBC in 2013 already quoted above 20 billion for just that:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-16473296
It doesn't fundamentally change my point that 8 million per mile does not buy you a completely new railway. Thanks for the breakdown which I was unable to find in that form. Would be interesting to know the breakdown for the latest estimates.

 

[richieb1971]

Are there any public domain itemized bills for building a railway from the last 20 years?

Just trying to work out the percentages of cost to each part of the contract.

This thread is really helpful. Thank you.

 

[PHILIPE]

Add to list:-

Allow for dithering. While this takes place, costs are rising.

 

[HowardGWR]

All the above are notional and dependant on the scope of the job. How this is broken down is also customer dependant. On some overseas jobs (mostly mass transit) for signalling I have filled in schedules of just a page or two for one customer and many hundreds for another.

The extent of the breakdown is also dependant on the stage you are at. When scoping the job the schedule might be quite short, this would be validated as the detail is refined with greater breakdown of costs.

I hope this helps.

A big Welcome and I hope you won't mind me pointing out that it's 'dependent' and 'customer-dependent', with a hyphen. (see my emboldening above).

That's very useful information, thanks..

 

[deltic]

Are there any public domain itemized bills for building a railway from the last 20 years?

Just trying to work out the percentages of cost to each part of the contract.

This thread is really helpful. Thank you.

Costs make up will vary considerably by scheme - HS2 requires huge amount of tunnelling which is expensive - Waverley line required none. Underground stations are incredibly expensive as with Crossrail compared with something like Ebbsfleet which is a new build on a new line. So not possible to give average break downs.

 

[Bald Rick]

These are the broad headings

Construction costs
Enabling Works
Civil Engineering
Permanent Way
Railway Control Systems
Train Power Systems
Electric Power & Plant
Telecomms Systems
Buildings and Property

Indirect costs
Preliminaries
Contractor Overheads and Profit
Design
Project / Programme Management
Consents
Train Operator Compensation
Land costs (permanent)
Land costs (temporary)
Other costs

Each of these categories will have various divisions. For example:
Civil Engineering will include tunnelling, earthworks (cuttings, embankments), bridges, culverts, sub-grade to formation etc.

Enabling Works will include fencing, site accommodation and hard standings, site access, de vegetation, diverting utilities, temporary utilities for worksites, highway / watercourse diversions, property demolition, etc.

It's a long list.

 

[richieb1971]

These are the broad headings

Construction costs
Enabling Works
Civil Engineering
Permanent Way
Railway Control Systems
Train Power Systems
Electric Power & Plant
Telecomms Systems
Buildings and Property

Indirect costs
Preliminaries
Contractor Overheads and Profit
Design
Project / Programme Management
Consents
Train Operator Compensation
Land costs (permanent)
Land costs (temporary)
Other costs

Each of these categories will have various divisions. For example:
Civil Engineering will include tunnelling, earthworks (cuttings, embankments), bridges, culverts, sub-grade to formation etc.

Enabling Works will include fencing, site accommodation and hard standings, site access, de vegetation, diverting utilities, temporary utilities for worksites, highway / watercourse diversions, property demolition, etc.

It's a long list.

Thanks for this.

Now I know this is a big ask. Is it possible to put a chain of companies together that are non profit for the sole purpose of building railways?

 

[Flying Phil]

The lowest cost for building "New" railways is probably the model that preserved/heritage railway companies follow.

 

[Andrewlong]

The lowest cost for building "New" railways is probably the model that preserved/heritage railway companies follow.

Yes - because most of the work is carried out by volunteer labour on an existing trackbed. And a single track keeps costs down too. It's still an expensive business and will probably require a share issue - as is the case with Gloucester Warwickshire Railway extension to Broadway.

 

[route:oxford]

Is it possible to put a chain of companies together that are non profit for the sole purpose of building railways?

No...

 

[TBirdFrank]

You have all missed out on legals

Land Referencing and creation of a limits of deviation plan
Creation of a T&WO or Act of Parliament
Creation of a CPO and proving it to public enquiry if necessary
Serving the necessary notices and obtaining possession
Legal costs of land transfers, Part One Compensation etc

A very substantial cost component in any scheme

 

[deltic]

Thanks for this.

Now I know this is a big ask. Is it possible to put a chain of companies together that are non profit for the sole purpose of building railways?

What difference would a non profit company make?

 

[HSTEd]

If you already own the land do you actually require a Transport and Works Order or Act of Parliament?
I thought the primary purpose of such devices was to enable compulsary purchases of land for the project? And to require changes from various other statutory undertakings?

 

[D Foster]

Add to list:-

Allow for dithering. While this takes place, costs are rising.

Then allow for changes of plan - numerous -- and MPs along the route adding in their demands.

Has anyone mentioned costs of inquiries and NIMBYs yet?

Then it all gets cancelled due to projected cost over-runs.

Then it gets revived...

Revived version starts all over again...

:roll:

... and it will all cost more after Brexit is completed - or not --- Oops! Don't mention Brexit

:roll:

 

[Bald Rick]

Thanks for this.

Now I know this is a big ask. Is it possible to put a chain of companies together that are non profit for the sole purpose of building railways?

I want to build an extension to my house. There are thousands of building firms within 50 miles of where I live, and not one of them was prepared to build it on a non-profit basis.

 

[Bald Rick]

You have all missed out on legals

Land Referencing and creation of a limits of deviation plan
Creation of a T&WO or Act of Parliament
Creation of a CPO and proving it to public enquiry if necessary
Serving the necessary notices and obtaining possession
Legal costs of land transfers, Part One Compensation etc

A very substantial cost component in any scheme

That's all in Consents or Land Costs.

 

[D Foster]

Is anyone costing in the time and money spent on talking to the media about what may never happen at all?

Oh... And what about compensation for people whose house values have dropped because there just might be a new railway within a few miles some day?

(I recall a time when the Channel Tunnel link was going to be tunnelled all the way under Sidcup and Lewisham (depending on which panic you opted for).