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What would an itemized bill look like for building a new railway?

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daikilo

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What difference would a non profit company make?

Network Rail is notionally a non-profit organisation as it has no shareholders and no obligation that I am aware of to actually make a profit. Given the risk created by e.g. weather, random delays, etc, the financial risk assessment and mark-up would be enormous.

However, most and probably all of NRs contractors are for profit organisations and to unwind that would mean going back to something way before privatisation. I suspect it couldn't be done under EU law, but post-Brexit ...? It would also mean a lot of recruitment and training for tasks which I suspect NR doesn't even cover today, many of which may be of short duration and/or irregular.

Note that non-profit is not synonymous with bad financial management it is just that the target is zero and not say 12pct.
 
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dviner

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Network Rail is notionally a non-profit organisation as it has no shareholders and no obligation that I am aware of to actually make a profit. Given the risk created by e.g. weather, random delays, etc, the financial risk assessment and mark-up would be enormous.

Not non-profit, but non-dividend limited company - so any profits made would be re-invested rather than paid to shareholders.

No idea what status it has now.
 

Andrewlong

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I can't see where this is going. If NR wants to replace a bridge, it will specify the job and put it out for tender. Companies will bid for work and one will be chosen. Contractor will deliver an installed bridge. If they deliver it on time/quality/budget - they may get a bonus. If they don't - they may not or face penalties. If work is being done on a fixed price basis and you have competitive tenders - why the hang up about whether the company makes a profit or not ? Why should the railway construction industry be any different from say building motorways or office blocks ?

If you can't get the job done by a non-profit organisation, NR could simply employ people to build that bridge but it may not have skills to do it and more importantly what do you do with staff cost once bridge is built - make them redundant ?
 

route:oxford

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Not non-profit, but non-dividend limited company - so any profits made would be re-invested rather than paid to shareholders

The OP made it clear it would be a non-profit chain. So that's everything in the supply chain.

Go back to fundamentals and try and work out how to acquire one of the most fundamental building blocks of a new railway, a single wooden sleeper, without a profit-focussed company involved.
 

richieb1971

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The reason I specified if it could be done on a non profit basis is because the money comes from the public purse.

Historically the government has never chanted that it got "Best value for money" on anything. It just touts a figure (£50 billion HS2) and there you have it. Everyone expects a slice of a cut of £50 billion regardless. So the mentality is wrong from the very foundation of the get go.

If the mentality was, lets secure the land, lets get the legal stuff out of the way and then set off with a mentality of building the thing on a non profit basis (At least the labour, pay a competitive wage but no more) then I think you would have a professionally built railway made cheaper.


If a railway is built on the model of say a pint of beer sold in a pub, then the raw product costs pennies but the end product costs pounds. And I think thats where the problem lies in railway construction. If railways were cheaper, I think it would be a lot easier to lobby for it.
 
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Bald Rick

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If railways were cheaper, I think it would be a lot easier to lobby for it.

Naturally the 'non-profit construction' principle would have to extend to other forms of Government capital expenditure - including hospitals, schools, aircraft carriers, prisons, and, of course, motorways.
 

richieb1971

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Naturally the 'non-profit construction' principle would have to extend to other forms of Government capital expenditure - including hospitals, schools, aircraft carriers, prisons, and, of course, motorways.

Yes of course. The private sector should appease the private sector and the public sector should appease the public sector.

Its obvious the public purse cannot afford the prices the private sector are asking because we get what seemingly feels like being robbed. Just watching the TV today, the railways customers are not happy.
 

Clip

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Yes of course. The private sector should appease the private sector and the public sector should appease the public sector.

Its obvious the public purse cannot afford the prices the private sector are asking because we get what seemingly feels like being robbed. Just watching the TV today, the railways customers are not happy.

Ive never known the railways passengers to ever be happy if im honest. theres always something to moan about.

However I simply cannot see how you could ever build a railway using a not for profit model we just dont live in such an altruistic world anymore and not sure we ever have.
 

deltic

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The reason I specified if it could be done on a non profit basis is because the money comes from the public purse.

Historically the government has never chanted that it got "Best value for money" on anything. It just touts a figure (£50 billion HS2) and there you have it. Everyone expects a slice of a cut of £50 billion regardless. So the mentality is wrong from the very foundation of the get go.

If the mentality was, lets secure the land, lets get the legal stuff out of the way and then set off with a mentality of building the thing on a non profit basis (At least the labour, pay a competitive wage but no more) then I think you would have a professionally built railway made cheaper.


If a railway is built on the model of say a pint of beer sold in a pub, then the raw product costs pennies but the end product costs pounds. And I think thats where the problem lies in railway construction. If railways were cheaper, I think it would be a lot easier to lobby for it.

So who is being paid more than a competitive wage? Simon Kirby was the highest paid public sector employee when at HS2 - he left to earn even more money at Rolls Royce. We struggle to get the skills we need to build the rail network - partly due to the stop start nature of public sector spending but also because pay levels are to low.

We also inflict safety measures that cost a fortune without going though a real risk and probability assessment. Why do we need emergency vent shafts every 1km on Crossrail - why do underground stations need two exits.
 

HSTEd

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We also inflict safety measures that cost a fortune without going though a real risk and probability assessment. Why do we need emergency vent shafts every 1km on Crossrail - why do underground stations need two exits.

Most of these regulations are written in the blood of people who didn't have the benefit of them.
The King's Cross Fire I believe is the latest example of why we have multiple exits from underground stations.
 
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Camden

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I'm trying to learn about what makes the cost of something what it is.

If I am not mistaken it costs the British public approximately £8m per mile of double track. I'm just wondering where that money goes in % terms. But first I asked for a breakdown of itemized billing.

I just want a layman's terms kind of breakdown, I'm not asking for War and Peace.

Probably the better thing to ask would be what % does it cost for labour (design and construction, admin of procuring the labour and items) and materials?

The rest, whether it be arguing over which scheme goes ahead and which doesn't, to preparing the "business case", to preparing reports on progress for politicians, is all redundant fluff.
 

deltic

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Most of these regulations are written in the blood of people who didn't have the benefit of them.
The King's Cross Fire I believe is the latest example of why we have multiple exits from underground stations.

Yes they are written for events that happened in the past and applied in circumstances where they are no longer applicable because fire detection, prevention and suppression in new build stations are very different to those applicable in Victorian build stations.

It comes back to probabilities and risk which we tend not to be very good at assessing rationally.
 

superkev

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I'd like to see an itemised Bill for similar work in fr another country to compare.
Diddnt the soon forgotton Mcnulty report say things here cost a lot more (was it double).
K
 

Abpj17

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The reason I specified if it could be done on a non profit basis is because the money comes from the public purse.

Historically the government has never chanted that it got "Best value for money" on anything. It just touts a figure (£50 billion HS2) and there you have it. Everyone expects a slice of a cut of £50 billion regardless. So the mentality is wrong from the very foundation of the get go.

If the mentality was, lets secure the land, lets get the legal stuff out of the way and then set off with a mentality of building the thing on a non profit basis (At least the labour, pay a competitive wage but no more) then I think you would have a professionally built railway made cheaper.


If a railway is built on the model of say a pint of beer sold in a pub, then the raw product costs pennies but the end product costs pounds. And I think thats where the problem lies in railway construction. If railways were cheaper, I think it would be a lot easier to lobby for it.

The terminology you are using is complicating things.

The government isn't 'non-profit'.

Public sector is generally funded by taxation in absolute terms, and through borrowing. The 'lower' tiers of the public sector can be profit making but any profits/dividends go to the public purse or are reinvested. There is no 'profit extraction' to private shareholders.

Where service provision is included, it has to provide value for money. That's not the same as making a profit in a narrow financial sense. But the cost of providing that service should bring financial and other e.g. social benefits. There is typically expected to be net positive case (even if it's a financial loss/subsidy to the public purse).

Private sector is funded by equity (shares/equity issuance, private investment) and borrowing/debit. Profits go to shareholders.

Non-profits is usually the term used to describe various forms of charities. They either work via donations. Or where services a provided via fees on a largely cost-recovery basis.

What I think you're really doing a less than great job of explaining is the spectrum between:
nationalisation - paid out of the public purse - there is no private profit extraction...but there is a school of though that implies the government isn't good at this stuff relative to private operators, the market and competition
private operators - would only ever build stuff with a clear profit incentive. So huge parts of scotland and wales etc. would never get rail as it would be loss making

hence the government comes up with private/public partnerships - where the private sector inject money in term for some of the rewards as well. These can go badly when the private sector takes the profit but the public sector takes on all the risk.

As Bald Rick alluded to - people don't do anything for free. Major infrastructures projects are expensive and it's a long time. Income can lag expenditure by a decade or so given the gap before fares can start to be charged.

Private companies are under a legal duty to act in the interests of their shareholders. They won't work for cost recovery. They would never get equity investment until shareholders knew they would get dividends or be able to sell shares for a hopefully higher price.

And a 'non-profit' build isn't necessarily cheaper. You seem to be thinking merely in terms of e.g. materials and labour in finite terms. In practice, a huge part of the costs can relate to bad project management and overrun - things the public sector is more prone to.

In a Utopia say a project cost 5bn.
A public sector build might cost 7bn - bad project management, a few strikes, a couple of years delay when there was a change of government and costs went up etc.
A private sector build might cost 4bn. But a 5 years later it's discovered that there was some cutting of corners to deliver on time. So another 2bn is spent making adjustments. Then it seems better value for money for a while. But then maintenance costs go up, because the contract is about to end and the private sector refuses to buy new whatevers as it's not thinking in the long term.
 

Andrewlong

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Yes of course. The private sector should appease the private sector and the public sector should appease the public sector.

Its obvious the public purse cannot afford the prices the private sector are asking because we get what seemingly feels like being robbed. Just watching the TV today, the railways customers are not happy.

Aren't they unhappy because fare rises agreed by the government have just come into force and the media are over it like a rash? Plus there is overcrowding, infrastructure projects over running and the little matter of the ongoing Southern strike. I struggle to see where the connection with private firms ripping people off is linked in especially when out of every pound spent, 3p goes to the TOC.

You do seem to have a chip on your shoulder about the private sector - who you should thank for building the railways in the first place!
 

HSTEd

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So if I build a railway on land I own do I need a T&WO or an Act of Parliament or do I just have to pass an inspection by HMRI before I can use it for any kind of commercial or public transport purpose?
 

Bald Rick

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So if I build a railway on land I own do I need a T&WO or an Act of Parliament or do I just have to pass an inspection by HMRI before I can use it for any kind of commercial or public transport purpose?

You will need some form of planning consent, for instance if you are changing the use of the land.
 

HSTEd

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You will need some form of planning consent, for instance if you are changing the use of the land.

Well yes, I will need planning consent for the trackbed etc.
But is there a need for any greater governmental permission? (Planning permission is relatively cheap after all.
 

Dr Hoo

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So if I build a railway on land I own do I need a T&WO or an Act of Parliament or do I just have to pass an inspection by HMRI before I can use it for any kind of commercial or public transport purpose?

You will generally need 'statutory authority', such as an act of parliament, Transport & Works approval or development consent order (they have changed over the years) to give rights to compulsory purchase and some protection against claims of 'nuisance' from the actual project and its subsequent operation.

It would be a pity to build a new railway and then get an injunction to shut it down after the first day of use.
 

deltic

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So if I build a railway on land I own do I need a T&WO or an Act of Parliament or do I just have to pass an inspection by HMRI before I can use it for any kind of commercial or public transport purpose?

Depends on who you are and what you want to do. You have certain permitted rights to do what you want on your land - for example you can extend your home by 10% subject to certain conditions. You can put up a garden shed/greenhouse in your garden provided it's under a certain size. It's when you fundamentally want to change the use of your land or you will have impacts on your neighbours that planning rules come into play. So if you owned an existing track bed and stations you could probably restore it to its previous use without planning permission but would require the appropriate safety and operating licences. If the stations had been converted into other uses you would need planning permission to convert them back to stations.
 

Bald Rick

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Well yes, I will need planning consent for the trackbed etc.
But is there a need for any greater governmental permission? (Planning permission is relatively cheap after all.

In theory, if all elements of your proposal complied with each local authority's planning policies, and if any objections to your proposal (on any grounds) were deemed insignificant or not relevant, then they could grant you consent.

However the chances of that are somewhat remote.

Planning authorities can (and do) refuse planning permission for a window being the wrong shape or paint being the wrong colour. I've known authorities refuse change of use from an agricultural field grade 3b (growing grass) to a domestic garden (growing grass). So you can imagine their view if you want to put a (potentially visually intrusive and noisy) railway next to a number of their council tax payers back yards.

This all assumes that you have all the land you require to construct, maintain and operate the system. And that you don't want any taxpayers cash to build maintain or erase the system.
 

ComUtoR

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http://www.wdmes.co.uk/

The Welling and District Model Engineering Society was founded in 1945. We are an active and enthusiastic society and we have a private site close to Falconwood station with a 1268 feet 3.5" and 5" gauge raised steel track. The track is electronically signalled, and features a full anti-tip rail, level crossing, footbridges, mini-viaduct, signal box and tunnel. The 9 bay steaming bay is equipped with power and has a water tower and coal bunker.

How big does it need to be before you need special permissions etc ?
 

richieb1971

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You do seem to have a chip on your shoulder about the private sector - who you should thank for building the railways in the first place!


Would prefer specialists that only work on railways to build a railway than Joe Bloggs industries.

Would you not want to instill a belief in workmen that building the best railway possible is their goal and to have pride in it?

If the goal is to get paid, make a profit and move onto the next job as quickly as possible. Do you think we will get the railway projects done to spec, on time and on budget?

I get the feeling in the world today, that when something isn't good enough, it HAS to be accepted. There is no other way.. only the way we believe it can be done, or should be done.. and it will never be done any other way.

Challenging the status quo is what Pioneers countries to new levels of excellence.
 

DelW

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If the goal is to get paid, make a profit and move onto the next job as quickly as possible. Do you think we will get the railway projects done to spec, on time and on budget?

I would suggest that that has been the main aim of contractors at least as far back as the dawn of the railway age - witness (among others) the tunnels on the Tonbridge - Hastings line. Most contractors will also aim to provide a satisfactory product as well, because that brings repeat business, but only insofar as that doesn't conflict with the main aim. I speak as one who has worked for civil engineering contractors for over 40 years.

I would also point out that if contractors don't "get paid [and] make a profit", they don't stay in business very long.
 

Andrewlong

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Would prefer specialists that only work on railways to build a railway than Joe Bloggs industries.

Would you not want to instill a belief in workmen that building the best railway possible is their goal and to have pride in it?

If the goal is to get paid, make a profit and move onto the next job as quickly as possible. Do you think we will get the railway projects done to spec, on time and on budget?

I get the feeling in the world today, that when something isn't good enough, it HAS to be accepted. There is no other way.. only the way we believe it can be done, or should be done.. and it will never be done any other way.

Challenging the status quo is what Pioneers countries to new levels of excellence.

Why do we need to have railway only contractors ? Building a road tunnel or a railway tunnel are not a million miles apart. It's construction and I am sure there are people who can elaborate more than I can.

If you use contractors, you bring them in, they do the work, you sign it off and they go. If you want a dedicated railway workforce - you would have to consider paying them even when idle. This is why contractors are used - they have expertise and you don't pay them when not needed.

Do you not feel the Contractors who created the tunnels for Crossrail did not feel real pride in their achievement ?

As to doing things on time etc. It's NR who seem to be incapable of managing the GWML electrification Programme not a Contractor. Ok there were problems but this should have been managed properly. It has to be paid for - the taxpayer should not be expected to cough up for ongoing cockups.

Finally I work for a private sector IT company and we have it drummed into us day after day that we need to put the customer first. We have slogans like "go the extra mile, add value to the things you do and show them innovation" if we don't do this then we don't get the business and we are out of jobs. To say all we do is to keep shareholders happy is way too simplistic.
 

Phil.

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"What would an itemised bill ......"
It would be very very long and have an inordinate number of zeros on it.

I expect your question is meant to read, "What would be listed as items on a bill...."
 
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richieb1971

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Why do we need to have railway only contractors ? Building a road tunnel or a railway tunnel are not a million miles apart. It's construction and I am sure there are people who can elaborate more than I can.

If you use contractors, you bring them in, they do the work, you sign it off and they go. If you want a dedicated railway workforce - you would have to consider paying them even when idle. This is why contractors are used - they have expertise and you don't pay them when not needed.

Do you not feel the Contractors who created the tunnels for Crossrail did not feel real pride in their achievement ?

As to doing things on time etc. It's NR who seem to be incapable of managing the GWML electrification Programme not a Contractor. Ok there were problems but this should have been managed properly. It has to be paid for - the taxpayer should not be expected to cough up for ongoing cockups.

Finally I work for a private sector IT company and we have it drummed into us day after day that we need to put the customer first. We have slogans like "go the extra mile, add value to the things you do and show them innovation" if we don't do this then we don't get the business and we are out of jobs. To say all we do is to keep shareholders happy is way too simplistic.

Thanks for the feedback. It seems you have a belief in what you do and thats a great thing.

But we still have a problem where building railways is too expensive for what it is.

From what I can this is what is happening -

1) Railway gets built and maintained
2) Costs too much to build and maintain
3) Prices of tickets keeps going up (for whatever reason)
4) The end result based on news reports lately is that the services are not up to scratch.


So basically, we are paying over the odds and the output for whatever reason is not that good.

So when I speak to people about trains, the replies are usually of the negative tone. If we are paying for the best, why are we not getting the best?

It seems value for money is hard to come by these days. Even when you tout billions and billions of pounds around.
 

deltic

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Thanks for the feedback. It seems you have a belief in what you do and thats a great thing.

But we still have a problem where building railways is too expensive for what it is.

From what I can this is what is happening -

1) Railway gets built and maintained
2) Costs too much to build and maintain
3) Prices of tickets keeps going up (for whatever reason)
4) The end result based on news reports lately is that the services are not up to scratch.


So basically, we are paying over the odds and the output for whatever reason is not that good.

So when I speak to people about trains, the replies are usually of the negative tone. If we are paying for the best, why are we not getting the best?

It seems value for money is hard to come by these days. Even when you tout billions and billions of pounds around.

I think you are conflating many unrelated issues here. Building new railways such as HS1 and Crossrail have a fairly good record of being built to time and budget - they are expensive to build due to high cost of land and mitigation required as well as the fact we have a start/stop approach to building infrastructure. We have also become far more safety conscious in recent years and that an improved welfare facilities cost money.

Building on existing railways is less predictable as condition of assets are less well known and you are working with an operational railway.

The price of rail tickets going up has little to do with cost of building railways and is linked to government policy that rail passengers should cover a great proportion of the industry's operating costs.

Services not being up to scratch are due to an increasingly heavily used railway where there is little leeway to get a service back on track if there is some perpetuation in the service. As well as the present industrial relation issues
 

richieb1971

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So many issues, so man levels of fail.

When the railways were built it was built by the people for the people. Now we have less routes, higher relative costs and a failing service.


I'm only speculating but this is what I see.

When governments get "railway ambitious" we don't have the workforce to complete tasks/projects on time. This causes things to go over budget.

Planning sounds over complicated. 12 month lead times on surveys, money invested in materials and land which never get used because the project plug gets pulled before boots go on the ground.

Trains having to be modified with bi modes because OLE is not complete. Trains seconded from their current lines to new lines will be sitting in sidings for 5 years waiting for jobs to be completed. Probably will be scrapped and new trains ordered.

When the railway is being run and open for business. Passengers notice

1) New trains have seats nicknamed ironing boards and are not very comfortable considering you paid a ratio of up to £1 for every 2 miles of travel.

2) The trains get so dirty and horrible looking nobody who cleans their car once a week would feel comfortable riding in communal dirty trains.

3) Some TOC's go willy nilly on strike, and those that do run seem to run late regardless.


If you got what you paid for, the government would be paying the public to use their trains. There is definitely a demand to use trains, but it feels like a trap to the commuter. Unfortunately there is no competition. From what I can gather no 2 TOC's run the same lengths of track on the same timings in many places.

It does exist though. Southern do a MKC to Clapham Junction service and for most of its journey its running in tandem against LM services. I've heard both services are good, and thats probably because 2 TOC's run the same line and support the same stations. Perhaps this should be introduced elsewhere.

If the whole sector of railways was private, it would most certainly be bankrupt. It does not have a working financial model which is profit bearing as it currently stands. From what I can see, its impossible to make it so.
 
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