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What would happen if a driver was given a wrong route?

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Falcon1200

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During the Railtrack Signallers' strike of 1994 the RMT made a big thing of 'incompetent managers' working boxes wrong-routing trains, knowing full well that management were not going to say that such things happen almost every day outwith the strikes !
 
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BrJWx

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I saw this happen a few years ago at Hitchin, when waiting for a connection. An HST was routed from the down fast onto the Cambridge flyover, and overshot the (green) signal by a few feet before stopping. Driver had to get out and walk to the other end of the train to back it up to reset everything, I assume whilst any other trains nearby were stopped. Took about 20 minutes to sort out, and the local staff watching suggested both signaller and driver were at fault.
 

DanNCL

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There have been at least two occasions in the past three months where HSTs have been wrong routed into platforms 5/6 at Newcastle, where Mark 3s are prohibited. On the first occasion (which I was onboard) it went unnoticed, but the second time someone reported it, causing the train to be delayed until someone had been out to examine the clearances between the train and the platform. The train eventually proceeded about 45 minutes late. On both occasions the HSTs were substituting for Voyagers (which are cleared for P5/6), so what is likely to have happened is the signaller hadn't been aware of the HST substitution.

I would be interested to hear if there has ever been an incident of a national rail train being wrong routed at Pelaw Metro Junction onto Nexus owned infrastructure and what the procedure would be to recover a train that accepted such a wrong route. Likewise what would the recovery procedure be for if a Metro driver accepted a wrong route either at Pelaw Metro Junction or Sunderland and continued onto the unelectrified line?
 

ComUtoR

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Although why as it can reverse back out again with no harm done?

There was an 'incident'. Lots of delay attribution and lots of argument over who was at 'fault'. The result was an agreement that SE cannot accept a through platform any more without specific instruction and emergency working etc. With a official local instruction, where to place the blame will be a lot clearer.

The harm is huge. Although you can crossover at various points it becomes a complete Cluster* in seconds. Not only that, because it is a termination point for SE Drivers you now have a unit sitting on the through platform with nobody willing to move it. With such a high volume of trains going through 'The Core' there is a unit sitting behind you almost constantly. Reversing back out is next to impossible at Blackfriars if something is in the section.

I know how bad it is. I've done it myself.. Twice !


*Hearbreak Ridge
 

BluePenguin

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Change ends then return if allowed. Reverse is a very dirty word in railway terms.
I am sure they would be allowed if they signed the route in and they will out.

Is reverse a dirty word because many drivers don’t like doing it?
 

BluePenguin

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Trains are not allowed to reverse. Driver would always change ends.
Of course, I wasn’t sure what you meant for a moment. Walking through the train taking the train then back out of Blackfriars probably takes a while
 

dk1

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Of course, I wasn’t sure what you meant for a moment. Walking through the train taking the train then back out of Blackfriars probably takes a while
Yes that’s if it could be moved I suppose. Always have to drive from the leading cab unless in specific circumstances & then only when stipulations are met. That would be extremely rare anywhere other than a depot, yard or stabling point however.
 

BluePenguin

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Yes that’s if it could be moved I suppose. Always have to drive from the leading cab unless in specific circumstances & then only when stipulations are met. That would be extremely rare anywhere other than a depot, yard or stabling point however.
Are there any instances when it might not be able to be moved?
 

ComUtoR

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Did you take it!?

Nope. I was really nice to the Signaller too, he however, turned into a complete Ass...

I know its an industry wide issue and Metro really suffers heavily with it. I'd be interested to hear from a Signallers perspective why its so common, how easy it is to do, what precautions can be taken and *deep breath* doyouthinkautomationsuchasARStechnology is the answer ?
 

Class2ldn

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A few years ago I was on an SE service to Blackfriars (morning peak) that was routed into the Northbound through platform rather than one of the bays. I was told that the driver apparently didn't think much of it because "they sign all the platforms there", but as a following Thameslink train was fouling the switch just outside of the station, the driver had no way to get his 375 out of the way and not mess up the Thameslink rush hour.

Normally, you'd be able to use the crossover between Blackfriars and City Thameslink to switch sides and swap ends, but 375s and Networkers are apparently no longer permitted north of Blackfriars since the OHLEs went in, so the only way to solve the problem was to force the driver of the 700 to swap ends and head back towards E&C.

And then I was informed that the same thing happened a few weeks later!
Its quite common when there's a block on to be routed into 1 and 2 to turn back but on a normal Monday morning in rush hour turning back in them is not advised lol, you would definitely be checking that route.
 

LAX54

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Change ends then return if allowed. Reverse is a very dirty word in railway terms.
Of course 'reverse' would have been 'set-back', another move that is banned to the history books, although the term is still widely used, if not quite correctly now.
I recall the Plain English Society got involved in the Rule Book, to make is easier to understand, and turned set back into a long sentence that nobody ever said, as it was so 'convoluted' ! lol

Nope. I was really nice to the Signaller too, he however, turned into a complete Ass...

I know its an industry wide issue and Metro really suffers heavily with it. I'd be interested to hear from a Signallers perspective why its so common, how easy it is to do, what precautions can be taken and *deep breath* doyouthinkautomationsuchasARStechnology is the answer ?
ARS is only as good as the person that programmes the data, can be hit and miss.
 

Highlandspring

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Of course 'reverse' would have been 'set-back', another move that is banned to the history books, although the term is still widely used, if not quite correctly now.
I recall the Plain English Society got involved in the Rule Book, to make is easier to understand, and turned set back into a long sentence that nobody ever said, as it was so 'convoluted' ! lol
The Plain English Campaign wanted to change 'set back' to 'return in the wrong direction' but it was resisted as on a single or bi-directional line there is no wrong direction. The term set back doesn't appear very frequently in the Rule Book anyway (if at all..?).

Apocryphally they also wanted to change 'distant signal' to 'far away signal'
 

richieb1971

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I've seen trains on RTT booked to go through Bedford to Bletchley and then diverting at Leicester to Nuneaton then to Bletchley. RTT showed blanks in between.

Once I was at that triangle junction south of York and a convoy scheduled to come from the Western unelectrified route came down the ECML instead an hour late. I assume another route connects the lines further south making that possible.

Does the OP mean this type of scenario or where the route taken by the train has no alternative route by which the train has taken?
 

Annetts key

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I know its an industry wide issue and Metro really suffers heavily with it. I'd be interested to hear from a Signallers perspective why its so common, how easy it is to do, what precautions can be taken and *deep breath* doyouthinkautomationsuchasARStechnology is the answer ?
I’m not a signaller. But I have spent some time on an operating floor.

Have you ever driven your own car to a place near to you home, but on a slightly different route? Say going to pick someone up or drop them off? And did you get distracted and then realise after passing the junction/turning that you had made a mistake and gone the wrong way?

With signallers, with a mainly clock face timetable, it’s very easy to run on ‘routine’. So if there is a train with a similar head code /train description ‘number’, it’s so easy just to set the “normal” route for that train. Remember, the only thing the signalling system tells the signaller is that (1) there is a train (indicated by the track circuits or axle counters) and the TD (train describer) showing the head code /train description ‘number’.

Of course, the signaller should have a schedule available to them. In the past this was a hard copy printed on paper. But these days, most signallers have access to a computer with an electronic version.

However, if the signaller is busy, then they will not always have time to cross check this for every train. Remember a signallers time is taken up with any telephone calls (public at a crossing, control, station staff, track workers wanting a line block, S&T trying to maintain or fix a part of the signalling system, other drivers or train crew…). Or talking to an adjacent signaller to pass on information.

The signalling equipment itself has no way to know which way the train should be going. It only checks that the route the signaller is trying to set is safe and allowed within the design.

Once the signaller routes the signal, the signalling system will once it has checked that it is safe, clear the signal to the appropriate aspect.

As said above ARS will set a route determined only by the information that has been put into the database schedule by a human. If ARS is in control, unless the signaller is monitoring it closely, the train driver is going to be the only person to spot the error…
 

SE%Traveller

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Its quite common when there's a block on to be routed into 1 and 2 to turn back but on a normal Monday morning in rush hour turning back in them is not advised lol, you would definitely be checking that route.
Sevenoaks Trains will occasionally terminate at platform 2 in the rush our if the bays are blocked. Less of an issue for them as they're cleared to go North, the path exists anyway and the passengers are expecting to disembark. Certainly preferable from a passenger point of view from plan B, sitting outside Blackfriars waiting for it is to clear and being undertaken by the Orpington train scheduled 20 mind the one you're on
 

Annetts key

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Does the OP mean this type of scenario or where the route taken by the train has no alternative route by which the train has taken?
At every junction, the train schedule should detail which line the train should take. Unless there is a documented exception.

There are many reasons for this. Including: does the driver sign that route (has the required route knowledge). Is the type of train permitted on that line/route. There are various different classifications on what loco/DMU/EMU/carriages/cars/wagons can travel on a particular line due to the different lines being constructed to different standards over the years. Either in terms of width and height, or weight.

Then there is the requirement that the train is compatible with the signalling system. Or the third rail or overhead line.

And then there is the question of can the train still call at all the stations. And can it maintain the booked schedule in terms of time.
 

LAX54

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The Plain English Campaign wanted to change 'set back' to 'return in the wrong direction' but it was resisted as on a single or bi-directional line there is no wrong direction. The term set back doesn't appear very frequently in the Rule Book anyway (if at all..?).

Apocryphally they also wanted to change 'distant signal' to 'far away signal'
wasnt there another bit about not being in the cab that the direction of the train was originally travelling?

I’m not a signaller. But I have spent some time on an operating floor.

Have you ever driven your own car to a place near to you home, but on a slightly different route? Say going to pick someone up or drop them off? And did you get distracted and then realise after passing the junction/turning that you had made a mistake and gone the wrong way?

With signallers, with a mainly clock face timetable, it’s very easy to run on ‘routine’. So if there is a train with a similar head code /train description ‘number’, it’s so easy just to set the “normal” route for that train. Remember, the only thing the signalling system tells the signaller is that (1) there is a train (indicated by the track circuits or axle counters) and the TD (train describer) showing the head code /train description ‘number’.

Of course, the signaller should have a schedule available to them. In the past this was a hard copy printed on paper. But these days, most signallers have access to a computer with an electronic version.

However, if the signaller is busy, then they will not always have time to cross check this for every train. Remember a signallers time is taken up with any telephone calls (public at a crossing, control, station staff, track workers wanting a line block, S&T trying to maintain or fix a part of the signalling system, other drivers or train crew…). Or talking to an adjacent signaller to pass on information.

The signalling equipment itself has no way to know which way the train should be going. It only checks that the route the signaller is trying to set is safe and allowed within the design.

Once the signaller routes the signal, the signalling system will once it has checked that it is safe, clear the signal to the appropriate aspect.

As said above ARS will set a route determined only by the information that has been put into the database schedule by a human. If ARS is in control, unless the signaller is monitoring it closely, the train driver is going to be the only person to spot the error…
On a rest day, when going out somewhere, the wife would say..."Where are you going ?" just conditioned into taking the same route everyday !
As for schedules, Norwich had some quite easily misread codes, P1 to P3 (and P4 sometimes) tended to be London and Cross Country services,( 1P. 1R. 1K) P5 and P6 were nearly all Class 2's going towards Whitlingham,(2S, 2P, 2J ) but there was the odd Class 2 Cambridge (most were Class 1) and also in P5.
This train was also at a time when it could get busy on the panel, you would see TRS flashing in P5 see it's a Class 2, (2Kxx) and as 'all 2's went along towards Whitlingham, just set a route, only to find the GSM-R barking at you, with the Driver saying, '" I think that's wrong Siggy", and the odd Driver stopping just as he leaves the platform, so easily done,
its then the wrong route form being filled in, and taking time to write a report as to why you did it, followed by a little chat with the Manager, and going on the spread sheet.
 
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43066

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Nope. I was really nice to the Signaller too, he however, turned into a complete Ass...

I know its an industry wide issue and Metro really suffers heavily with it. I'd be interested to hear from a Signallers perspective why its so common, how easy it is to do, what precautions can be taken and *deep breath* doyouthinkautomationsuchasARStechnology is the answer ?

Yeo annoying when they’re like that. I had a signal thrown back in my face a couple of weeks back, dropped the lot of course but stopped way beyond the red (I was doing 100mph). signaller didn’t even bother to ask if I was okay to continue…

Same when I was offered a wrong route a few years ago and rang up to query it: “erm I’m going to Hayes and you’re sending me towards Hither Green”… Not so much as an apology!

To be fair the *overwhelming* majority of signallers I’ve spoken to are highly professional and a pleasure to deal with, but the bad apples really stick out (I’m sure they will say the same about drivers to be fair).
 
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