What would have happened if DP2 had not crashed?

[tbwbear]

As we know, DP2 was involved in the Thirsk crash in 1967 and written off, with the power unit being used for a class 50.

But consider two scenarios, the crash never happened or a Deltic was involved instead, what would have happened ?


Would DP2 have been retained in a similar way as Falcon (Class 53) was on the WR ? What was the plan for it before it crashed ?

And if they had lost a Class 55 at Thirsk, given that in 1967/8 Deltics were in high demand, could it have been modified (certainly from a 90mph to 100mph) to become a reasonable (albeit lower powered) replacement for a Deltic ?

Or if we assume the same level of damage to a 55 at Thirsk as DP2 sustainted, could they have used DP2 to rebuild the Deltic ?

 

[Royston Vasey]

I think this is deeply interwoven with the production Class 50 story of the time. There's an excellent account of the 50 saga from Rail here and Thirsk happened in the midst of it, I am sure DP2 would have been wrapped up in it somewhere had it lived.


DP2 is thought to have used Deltic production bodyshell 18, so assuming a Deltic had crashed and the engine remained useable as DP2's did, it's a fair assumption that BR would have acquired DP2 from EE, possibly as compensation/reparation for the delayed Class 50 contract, and refitted it with the Napier and internals. They might also have dug DP1 out of the Science Museum for the same purpose, at a push. Or they could have just made do with a loco down, or run DP2 for a bit longer on secondary Deltic diagrams, as they did with Falcon as you say. It looked like a Deltic, so wouldn't have harmed the Eastern Region's pride too much by running it.

Vulcan was in the process of being run down for closure by EE in the late 1960s and there's little prospect of another bodyshell being produced especially after several years, but given DP2's existence and having served its purpose, also not much point in building another. EE were in no position to hold BR to ransom at that point.

If no crash had happened, and given the egregious delays and overspend in delivering the 50s, I wouldn't be surprised if it had been temporarily pooled with the production 50s as a contingency/goodwill gesture by EE, who still owned DP2 upon its demise. There is a question of whether BR would have wanted to do this politically as it could have been seen as rather embarrassing by all parties, but it could have been dressed up as test running on the WCML I suppose. Of course the 50s were completed in late 1968 and left the WCML between 1972 and 1976, so I expect it would have been withdrawn either on final delivery of the 50s in 1969 or at the latest by 1972 had it lived on with the 50s.

It would have been an excellent testbed on the Western Region for proving the 50s prior to their reallocation there from 1972.

I expect whatever it would have done it would have been gone by the mid 1970s as non-standard regardless, especially since so many of the externals and internals were useful and useable on Classes 50 and 55; it would probably have been bought for scrap value and parted for spares.

All pure conjecture but I hope the context is informative.

A thread on Another Forum does exist on this, if you're interested and if linking there is allowed Mods

 

[randyrippley]

Something to remember is that DP2 was only possible because it used parts from the canceled Deltics: the original order was around 35 and was cut back to 22. It would be interesting to know just what had been prebuilt in anticipation of the full order - there may well have been spare cabs and body panels lying around.
Another thing to consider is what if EE had built a second DP1 body but fitted with a 16CSVT. It would have rendered the Warships and Westerns superfluous as it would have met the Western Region needs for a low weight type 4 loco, but using home-grown electric transmissions

 

[hexagon789]

As we know, DP2 was involved in the Thirsk crash in 1967 and written off, with the power unit being used for a class 50.

But consider two scenarios, the crash never happened or a Deltic was involved instead, what would have happened ?


Would DP2 have been retained in a similar way as Falcon (Class 53) was on the WR ? What was the plan for it before it crashed ?

And if they had lost a Class 55 at Thirsk, given that in 1967/8 Deltics were in high demand, could it have been modified (certainly from a 90mph to 100mph) to become a reasonable (albeit lower powered) replacement for a Deltic ?

Or if we assume the same level of damage to a 55 at Thirsk as DP2 sustainted, could they have used DP2 to rebuild the Deltic ?

It was modified, it gained standard 106mph gearing so it could be used vice Deltics on ECML service trains.

I'd expect it may have either continued on the ECML until it went pop and was uneconomic to repair OR transferred to the LMR to work alongside the 50s or something

 

[Trackman]

Or if we assume the same level of damage to a 55 at Thirsk as DP2 sustainted, could they have used DP2 to rebuild the Deltic ?

Apart from the roof and to some certain extent side panels etc, the underframe was bespoke.
You couldn't put a 50 power unit on a 55 underframe as it would bend.
I don't know about the other way around but it sounds like a real faff and cost £££s.

Something to remember is that DP2 was only possible because it used parts from the canceled Deltics: the original order was around 35 and was cut back to 22.

I thought it was 23. DP2 used the 18th one. Makes me think if it was 23 and DP2 was one of them (so to speak).

I expect whatever it would have done it would have been gone by the mid 1970s as non-standard regardless, especially since so many of the externals and internals were useful and useable on Classes 50 and 55; it would probably have been bought for scrap value and parted for spares.

My thinking too.

 

[Clarence Yard]

There were only 22 type 5 Deltics ordered, not 23, not 35. EE originally quoted for 23 but the BTC only ever ordered 22 and only 22 were ever in build.

DP2 was built at the same time as the Deltics and the body shell was reputed to be the 18th build out of the total of 23 locos on that particular production line at that time.

My guess is that if DP2 had survived, it would have been withdrawn around 1975/6 (from the WR?) with the RTC at Derby being a likely further use for a few years more before it would have been broken up for spares for the cl.50 fleet.

 

[Spartacus]

As Trackman says, the frames and various internals were very different from a standard Deltic, rebuilding it as a "55/1" or something would have been a non-starter. I suspect it would have soldiered on, following the 50s around, probably succumbing when the HSTs were introduced if it made the move to the WR. Surely as DP2 was wrecked in July '67 and the first 50 was introduced in October '67, which itself was late, BR must have had a plan for DP2 once the 50s were introduced.

 

[delt1c]

As DP2 was never owned by BR and was the prototype for the 50's I doubt it would have lasted very long after the 50's started being delivered. This was a time when BR was reducing the numbers and withdrawing non standard locos.

 

[Bevan Price]

There were only 22 type 5 Deltics ordered, not 23, not 35. EE originally quoted for 23 but the BTC only ever ordered 22 and only 22 were ever in build.

DP2 was built at the same time as the Deltics and the body shell was reputed to be the 18th build out of the total of 23 locos on that particular production line at that time.

My guess is that if DP2 had survived, it would have been withdrawn around 1975/6 (from the WR?) with the RTC at Derby being a likely further use for a few years more before it would have been broken up for spares for the cl.50 fleet.

Or it may have survived just long enough to become the target for a preservation attempt?

 

[david1212]

Or it may have survived just long enough to become the target for a preservation attempt?

Indeed possible although unlike most of the early / mid 1970's locos still in existence with the parts being useable in class 50's and maybe other EE loco's the price tag would probably have been much higher.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Or it may have survived just long enough to become the target for a preservation attempt?

So many diesel dinosaurs were lost in the 70s so I doubt this would have happened. Steamy types were crawling over Barry trying to rescue yet another Hall rather than preserving those "evil" diesels.

 

[pdeaves]

BR must have had a plan for DP2 once the 50s were introduced.

Was DP2 ever BR property? I think it would have ended up back with the manufacturer for them to come up with their own plan. I suspect that would be 'languish behind a shed for years before being quietly cut up'.

 

[tbwbear]

Was DP2 ever BR property?

No. Back in 1967 DP2 belonged to EE and its "sister" prototype "Falcon" belonged to Brush. BR got Falcon in 1970 and it became the sole member of Class 53. Could /Would DP2 have been 51, 54 etc.. ?

BTW - Interesting answers so far !

 

[Richard Scott]

Doubt it would have survived much longer as two class 50 engines were written off early on so engine would probably have been required for the 50 fleet, which is where it ended up anyway. Think ended its days in 50023.