What's going to happen to the Class 222's after the Class 810's replace them?

[43066]

Do we know why didn't this happen for the short HST sets then? I suspect ROI on essentially short term uses of stock doesn't justify the outlay?

The short HSTs have a massively better acceleration rate anyway, due to their improved power to weight ratio with fewer trailers. That doesn’t apply to trains which have one engine per vehicle.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I can think of only two TOCs that would make sensible use of all of them.

One is XC, but as the Government don't like paying for any XC improvements so I'd be surprised. At best I can see them getting the balance of the Avanti 221s, but probably more likely nowt.

The other is ScotRail, to replace the HSTs and perhaps some 170s as well. That's where my bet would go.

The other TOCs who might find them useful would only need them in smaller numbers, not the whole lot. There was a rumour about TPE but I'd be surprised, their operation is complex enough without adding a 5th class.

Of course, the Government that made such a song and dance about levelling up won't spend money on the only major TOC that doesn't serve London...

 

[JonathanH]

Of course, the Government that made such a song and dance about levelling up won't spend money on the only major TOC that doesn't serve London...

CrossCountry carries a lot less people than other TOCs and most of its services don't really stop in levelling up areas.

Indeed, apart from a few commuter flows like Leeds to Sheffield, it is difficult to see how CrossCountry improvements meet any sort of levelling up agenda, which is much more about local travel needs.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

CrossCountry carries a lot less people than other TOCs and most of its services don't really stop in levelling up areas.

Indeed, apart from a few commuter flows like Leeds to Sheffield, it is difficult to see how CrossCountry improvements meet any sort of levelling up agenda, which is much more about local travel needs.

Levelling up's problem was that it was concentrated in the Transpennine corridor, forgetting literally the rest of the UK about from London and the South East and East Anglia that have been deindustrialised in some form. XC of course runs through most of the rest of the UK, I can't see how having a cramped 4 car diesel running between Birmingham and Manchester is an adequate service for a combined metropolitan population of about 5 million people

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Of course, the Government that made such a song and dance about levelling up won't spend money on the only major TOC that doesn't serve London...

The poor old North getting a rough deal is a tediously re-hashed and inaccurate insinuation.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

The poor old North getting a rough deal is a tediously re-hashed and inaccurate insinuation.

Don't know about that on the macro scale. 40 years of both parties falling over themselves to congratulate Britain's service sector based economy hasn't exactly produced a nice balanced set of ONS GVA figures...

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Don't know about that on the macro scale. 40 years of both parties falling over themselves to congratulate Britain's service sector based economy hasn't exactly produced a nice balanced set of ONS GVA figures...

If progress leans towards the South that is because that is where our capital is (and its hardly a useless Canberra/Ottawa style capital either) and having a slight bias towards improvements by the capital does not seem unreasonable to me. House prices up north are reflectively much lower as a result, etc. things all balance out.

Mind you, it’s probably an argument for another thread.

 

[snookertam]

How do you know the 222's will be at ScotRail though? There's nothing been mentioned about it.

See posts above in this thread. It’s also been rumoured up here for almost a year that they’d be a likely replacement for the HSTs.

Could be a lot of noise with no substance, but the chat is very consistent, and ScotRail are under a lot of pressure to get rid of the HSTs.

I can't imagine they'd manage too well with relatively slow, stop-start nature of the scotrail services

Not sure where you get this from, Intercity routes are not stop start at all except a handful towards late evening and early mornings.

See some examples of typical schedules at these links:

Realtime Trains | 1A43 1240 Glasgow Queen Street to Aberdeen | 24/06/2023

Real-time train running information for 1A43 1240 departure from Glasgow Queen Street to Aberdeen on 24/06/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 1A87 1530 Edinburgh to Aberdeen | 24/06/2023

Real-time train running information for 1A87 1530 departure from Edinburgh to Aberdeen on 24/06/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

No more/less stop/start than intercity style services elsewhere. They wouldn’t be brought up here as commuter trains.

 

[43074]

CrossCountry carries a lot less people than other TOCs and most of its services don't really stop in levelling up areas.

Indeed, apart from a few commuter flows like Leeds to Sheffield, it is difficult to see how CrossCountry improvements meet any sort of levelling up agenda, which is much more about local travel needs.

Source? The South West, West Midlands, Yorkshire and the North East and North West are exactly of the sort of areas levelling up is intended to target. But then again it's only a slogan and the amounts of money government are spending on the policy will do nothing to address regional inequalities anyway.

 

[JonathanH]

Source?

I was basing my opinion on the relevant mission of levelling up referring to local public transport connectivity, not long-distance public transport connectivity, the sort of thing that gets people to work, not go on holiday.

Levelling Up pledge for London style transport across UK by

Transport links across the UK will be “significantly closer to the standards of London”, with improved services, simpler fares and integrated ticket

www.transportxtra.com

Levelling Up White Paper: 12 missions by 2030
* Local public transport connectivity across the country will be significantly closer to the standards of London, with improved services, simpler fares and integrated ticketing.

The South West, West Midlands, Yorkshire and the North East and North West are exactly of the sort of areas levelling up is intended to target.

I agree, very much so, but connecting those areas with more capacity doesn't appear to change very many people's day to day life, especially as the distances increase, whereas improving local services could.

But then again it's only a slogan and the amounts of money government are spending on the policy will do nothing to address regional inequalities anyway.

Maybe. It is difficult to match the rhetoric with actual money.

 

[heathrowrail]

CrossCountry carries a lot less people than other TOCs and most of its services don't really stop in levelling up areas.

Indeed, apart from a few commuter flows like Leeds to Sheffield, it is difficult to see how CrossCountry improvements meet any sort of levelling up agenda, which is much more about local travel needs.

If that's the case why are XC services always rammed

 

[RobShipway]

If that's the case why are XC services always rammed

It might be me, but times I have used XC, the trains have been rammed for parts of a journey and not the whole journey. This to me is normally down to the fact that the XC services in these situations are probably quicker services with less stops point to point.

For example, when travelling on XC from Bournemouth to Reading, the services when I have used them have been generally spacious until they have got to Basingstoke, then the service has been rammed until Reading especially if it was just a 4 carriage Voyager class 220. The service has also then been rammed from Reading to Birmingham New Street.

Now, the majority of that situation is down to the people needing to commute taking the fastest method possible, whether it is Basinsgstoke to Reading or with getting from Reading to the likes of OXford, Banbury, Leamington Spa, Coventry, Birmingham International and Birmingham New Street. You work out the travel time difference and the amount of different local services those commuters would need to use if they where not able to use the XC service.

For instance let's say that someone needed to get from Basingstoke to Birmingham. They could either travel into Vauxhall(London) or get the GWR stopping service to Reading, then travel on to London Paddington. But from both Vauxhall(London) and Paddington, they would have to get across London to Euston where they could travel with either Avanti or go slower route with LNWR. Alternatively, they could travel on the GWR service to Reading, then get a service to Oxford, to then get the GWR service to Banbury where they could change for the Chiltern Railways service to Birmingham Snow Hill. In my experience, most people just go for the easy option, which is 1 train A to B unless there is no alternative.

The problem lies withe the fact that that where XC runs the fast service, the DFT have not made provision to them to have enough in the way of stock on the services, to not only cope with the A to B traveller, but local demand in areas that the XC services travel through.

 

[Norm_D_Ploom]

I regularly travelled W Yorks to Edinburgh for work around 2018 - 2021.

On the return journey I had the option of LNER change at York, Avanti change Preston or XC change Leeds.

XC was the quicker option but usually the train was busy when you left Edinburgh (normally 3ish) and busy pretty much all the way to Leeds.
The LKX option would be lightlyish loaded and started to fill up at Newcastle onwards, the west coast route it was normally easy to get an unreserved seat on the way back.

The easy point to note is that the East and West Coast services were 9/10 coaches and the XC 5 so it's fairly obvious to state that XC need a helping hand with things.

 

[philosopher]

If that's the case why are XC services always rammed

There is likely suppressed demand on XC due to overcrowding and a consequent lack of cheap advance fares.

 

[dereksingh291]

When are the 222s gonna be replaced from East Midlands Railway and what train operating company will they be going to but also will they be going to Chiltern Railways or Scotrail to replace their MK3 fleet? (Sorry if this question may seem off topic to this thread)

 

[JonathanH]

When are the 222s gonna be replaced from East Midlands Railway and what train operating company will they be going to but also will they be going to Chiltern Railways or Scotrail to replace their MK3 fleet? (Sorry if this question may seem off topic to this thread)

2025 has been suggested. No announcement of further use yet. There is no necessity for them to go anywhere if no further use is identified.

 

[energol]

The rumour is they are going to ScotRail next year to replace the HST fleet.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The rumour is they are going to ScotRail next year to replace the HST fleet.

At the snails pace that the 810s are progressing its unlikely to be next year but certainly would be a good home for them but guess it would be the 5 cars.

 

[hexagon789]

The rumour is they are going to ScotRail next year to replace the HST fleet.

Been a rumour for quite some time and last time it was ruled out due to the excessive leasing fees the ROSCO wanted for them.

 

[m79900]

Been a rumour for quite some time and last time it was ruled out due to the excessive leasing fees the ROSCO wanted for them.

More recently, I've seen that Grand Union will use either 221s/222s for their open access services.

 

[RacsoMoquette]

New Open Access operators would idealise a Voyager/Meridian fleet, Grand Union are now favouring ex Avanti Voyagers, while it will be interesting to see what First Sheffield Trains will utilise, maybe Meridians?

 

[anthony263]

New Open Access operators would idealise a Voyager/Meridian fleet, Grand Union are now favouring ex Avanti Voyagers, while it will be interesting to see what First Sheffield Trains will utilise, maybe Meridians?

Grabd Union probably going to try and grab the remaining 8 class 221's while orher open access operators and scotrail etc will go for the 222s.

Can see Hull trains ordering new units in the future frees up their class 802s to go to LUMO as they need extra capacity

 

[jayah]

CrossCountry carries a lot less people than other TOCs and most of its services don't really stop in levelling up areas.

Indeed, apart from a few commuter flows like Leeds to Sheffield, it is difficult to see how CrossCountry improvements meet any sort of levelling up agenda, which is much more about local travel needs.

The whole point of levelling up is that it applies anywhere that is below par, not to designated areas.

It is a huge drag on economic activity, many people just don't travel any more because they know how awful it will be. There is so much suppressed demand if you lengthened the Voyagers by 1 car tomorrow, in 6 months the crowding would be the same as today.

The XC train service is undoubtedly one of the worst and most crowded in the country - there aren't many routes where standing 1-2hrs is normal throughout the day.

 

[skyhigh]

Can see Hull trains ordering new units in the future frees up their class 802s to go to LUMO as they need extra capacity

Would Lumo want bi mode trains when they currently don't have any? And do they have anywhere to stable them?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Would Lumo want bi mode trains when they currently don't have any? And do they have anywhere to stable them?

Lumo have quite heavy 0 emission branding (might be why the new Sheffield services would be HT rather than Lumo).
Although Lumo have used 802s in the past, if they were to become part of the full fleet, they'd probably want the engines removed.


Take a look at https://www.lumo.co.uk/who-we-are they mention electric in almost every paragraph

we are Lumo
we’re reimagining rail, as your all-electric train service
WELCOME TO THE WORLD OF LUMO, YOUR ALL ELECTRIC TRAIN SERVICE
We're reimagining rail as the ultimate travel experience with our sustainable electric train service. Lumo's electric trains revolutionise eco-friendly travel, effortlessly linking destinations for a sustainable and greener journey.

Lumo is an innovative electric travel service, travelling exclusively on the East Coast of the UK between London & Edinburgh, calling at Stevenage, Newcastle & Morpeth. We are helping to improve regional connectivity while offering alternatives to Newcastle and Luton airports.

But we’re not just any old train, we’re your green electric service armed with some smart thinking aiming to shake up the industry and revolutionise the way you travel. Giving you great value with our low price train tickets. Or as we like to think of it, we’re the train we’ve all been waiting for.