What's the point in zonal bus fares?

[garethbus3]

Hi everyone,

I came here to ask a question regarding buses. I have nothing to do with the bus industry, but do have a question I wanted to put to users who know about buses, as an outsider.

That question is, why do bus companies choose to use a zone-based fare system?

Positives:

• Makes sense logically, that if you want to travel further you are charged more. But even then, unless the bus is always at max capacity, it's not like you're any more of a burden being on that bus than someone only travelling to the next stop?

Negatives:

• Complication: fare prices can't be presented clearly/easily on websites
• Complication: marginally slower boarding time, as opposed to a flat fare where you already know the price, and pay upon boarding
• Complication: drivers are supposed to make sure people only travel where their ticket says, but in the real world, surely this is more of a deterrent than an actual contract? I imagine only a small percentage of drivers would actually act on this. A flat fare solves this.
• Complication: paper ticket/receipt required, with flat fare a paper ticket/receipt would be optional as everyone onboard will have paid their fare. Appreciate if it's a return they'll need a physical ticket, but it'll cut down on paper if they were optional for single flat fares

Would it not be easier for everyone for operators to replace zone fares with flat fares, and just set the price as the average across all the zones? Sure some passengers may have to pay a bit more, but some will pay a bit less.

Like I said I'm no expert, I just want to find out what people think!

Also, whilst I'm here, are there any other types of fare system bus operators adopt?

Thanks,

Gareth

 

[garethbus3]

Having thought about it a bit more, and as my partner just pointed out, if you're travelling on a long distance service passengers shouldn't be expected to pay a much larger rate just to go a 10th of the distance. Does anyone have any thoughts/ideas on how to make bus fares simpler?

 

[WatcherZero]

Zonal is the simplification, you can easily show the boundaries on a map rather than routes being individually priced, you offer a simple flat fare for short/medium distance journeys rather than it being based on number of stops travelled or distance, and for longer journeys that cross boundaries the extra fare can be easily worked out by the passenger ahead of time by adding together the zones they are passing through.

As you realise an unlimited distance flat fare is simply unworkable from a price/service cost perspective. You wouldn't expect a flat unlimited distance fare for an aircraft would you? Or to be able to travel the length of the country by train for the same price as someone travelling a couple of miles to visit the shops?

 

[garethbus3]

Zonal is the simplification, you can easily show the boundaries on a map rather than routes being individually priced, you offer a simple flat fare for short/medium distance journeys rather than it being based on number of stops travelled or distance, and for longer journeys that cross boundaries the extra fare can be easily worked out by the passenger ahead of time by adding together the zones they are passing through.

As you realise an unlimited distance flat fare is simply unworkable from a price/service cost perspective. You wouldn't expect a flat unlimited distance fare for an aircraft would you? Or to be able to travel the length of the country by train for the same price as someone travelling a couple of miles to visit the shops?

You're right. In my small world I've only travelled on city buses that went a short distance so I wasn't aware of many routes going much further than this.

 

[Deerfold]

You're right. In my small world I've only travelled on city buses that went a short distance so I wasn't aware of many routes going much further than this.

It's not always very logical though.

If I go 1.5 miles into town a single is £2.10 (or a day ticket from £2.40). If I go the 12 miles the other way it's £3.20 single (or a day ticket from £4.30). More, but not much more, for a much further distance.

 

[transmanche]

That question is, why do bus companies choose to use a zone-based fare system?

I think what you called a 'zonal fare' system is actually a 'stage fare' system.

Historically a bus route would be broken into fare stages (say every 3 or 4 stops) and fares would be charged according to the number of fare stages travelled. Here's a link to a fare chart from London Transport's route 41 back in 1977: when 1 or 2 stages cost 7p, 3 or 4 stages cost 12p, 5 or 6 stages cost 19p and 7 or 8 stages cost 24p. This is quite a short route: longer routes would have more fares, increasing every 2 stages.

Compare that to a zonal system, where there are far fewer fares. Here's an example from London Transport's route 1 back in 1985. Here you can see there are three fare zones. The fare for one zone is 30p (or 40p for the Central zone); for two zones it's 55p; and for all three zones, it's 80p. Fare stages have not been eliminated altogether, as there's a 'short hop' fare of 25p for journeys of just 1 or 2 fare stages.

Nowadays TfL operates a flat fare system - all journeys on those routes would cost £1.50, regardless of length.

Flat fares work well when most journeys are of a similar length. By their very nature it makes short journeys more expensive and longer journeys cheaper. But they're not so good on very long bus routes.

 

[ashworth]

I think what you called a 'zonal fare' system is actually a 'stage fare' system.

Historically a bus route would be broken into fare stages (say every 3 or 4 stops) and fares would be charged according to the number of fare stages travelled.

That’s very much how I remember things from around the 1970’s when I was in my teens! I remember my grandparents always walking down the road a couple of stops to get the bus from the next fare stage to save 2p. That was a lot of money in those days before bus passes for retired people. Everyone seemed to do it and it was very easy to understand because it actually had Fare Stage in writing on the bus stop where the fare changed. I’m referring here to longer bus routes linking a number of towns and villages.

I think the difference now is that these Fare Stages cover a much wider area rather like fare zones. They can now cover a whole large town or a group of villages. Where the old fare stage was just half a dozen stops now they can be several miles of a route. The big problem now, certainly in the area where I live, is that these Fare Stages are no longer indicated at a bus stop. If without knowing you board a bus at the stop before a fare stage and alight at the stop after the next fare stage, you can be charged an very high fare because you are being charged for travel within 3 large fare zones.

From the villlage where I live it costs a very high £7.30 for a return ticket into the nearest city approx 8 miles away. If I was get the same bus from the next village just over a mile away, about 8 stops along the route nearer the city it only costs £5.20. At which of the 8 intermediate stops does the fare actually change? There’s no indication on the bus stops or in the timetable. Could I actually just walk one stop along the route out of my village and save £2.10? Without asking a bus driver there is no way of knowing.

 

[Typhoon]

Nowadays TfL operates a flat fare system - all journeys on those routes would cost £1.50, regardless of length.

Flat fares work well when most journeys are of a similar length. By their very nature it makes short journeys more expensive and longer journeys cheaper.

It helps that the TfL flat fare is lower or in the same ball park as many (perhaps most) operator's minimum fare so short journeys are not that much more expensive.

 

[Harpers Tate]

I have used buses in (for example) Orlando, Florida, where they have a flat fare system. It costs $2 to travel as far as you care to go (with a simple limit). That can be anything from adjacent stop to something like three hours or so travelling time. Some of these routes are quite "rural". This flat fare covers
- a single journey on one bus for as long as you want or for as long as it travels, plus
- a transfer ticket issued only on request that permits boarding of other buses (with different route number/s) within 90 minutes of issue

The thing is - it was probably always like this there, and thoughts of "unfairness" for those making short trips were never ingrained in minds as they are here. They don't have that tradition. And ultimately - that is precisely the sole reason why we persist with stage or zone fares; tradition; that feeling of unfairness for shorter trips. Otherwise, everything you say is valid ; ease of boarding, ease of advertising; no need for a ticket (except for transfer) etc.

Curiously, where I am, we have flat fares for children. And, I believe, flat fares (in effect, by ENCTS compensation) for passholders. And then day passes and longer. So here it is only adult fare payers, paying as they go, that are bound by this traditional scheme. It seems to me that the fare could very well be "flat" but determined by the route or geographical area where there are many routes.

Services operating wholly within a given geographical and relatively urban area might share a common low-ish flat rate; services operating long distances between such areas (Leeds <> York <> Whitby, for example) might have a much higher flat rate. That would also to a degree discourage short trip users from overloading long distance services.

 

[telstarbox]

A related point is that TfL buses now don't accept cash, although the flat fare policy predates this change.

 

[Deerfold]

Services operating wholly within a given geographical and relatively urban area might share a common low-ish flat rate; services operating long distances between such areas (Leeds <> York <> Whitby, for example) might have a much higher flat rate. That would also to a degree discourage short trip users from overloading long distance services.

You would however, have to ensure there were additional local services people could catch if they weren't to just be priced off the bus. The Coastliner services see a lot of local travel by people who often have no alternatives.

 

[radamfi]

Most places outside the UK either use flat fares or coarse zonal fare systems, both which are easy to sell tickets for and work out what the fare is in advance. This means that drivers do not need to be involved in fare collection, and therefore mean a faster journey. The traditional stage fare system still used in the UK means that drivers still need to waste time selling tickets.

 

[PeterC]

Where I live GoAhead operate a zonal system for passes and tickets isssued on apps or TheKey. Individual cash fares are no longer published so I have no idea what they are.

Full details can be found on the web but there is no other publicity available prior to boarding.That seems to be a common failing in publicity across the industry. Outside of London I have no recollection of seeing "fare stage" markers on bus stops.

 

[Deerfold]

Most places outside the UK either use flat fares or coarse zonal fare systems, both which are easy to sell tickets for and work out what the fare is in advance.

You'd think. I bought the simple tourist travelcard for Madrid last week. It's split into simply 2 Zones. A & T.

Oddly the Green buses are counted as being in Zone T, even when they're in Zone A, so I couldn't use the bus outside my hotel without paying almost twice as much. Green buses are express buses, but the ticket does cover trams, trains and underground in Zone A. Some people delight in making everything more complicated.

 

[Megafuss]

I don't have a problem with Zonal fares in principal. It's the ones that assume everyone want to travel to one central location/area that annoy me.

For example lots of the Stagecoach companies have a Megarider and a Megarider Plus Zone. If I ONLY want to travel in the area between the Megarider boundary and areas in the Plus area then I need to buy the whole Plus ticket, which is a lot more expensive.

As most of these networks are on a Hub/Spoke forumla, you could end up paying up to double that of people in the Megarider area just to use one route between two places in the area only covered by the plus ticket. That is simply unfair and off-putting for non users.

The only area I know that caters for this scenario is Oxfordshire with the Megarider County which is not valid in the Oxford city area.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

From the villlage where I live it costs a very high £7.30 for a return ticket into the nearest city approx 8 miles away. If I was get the same bus from the next village just over a mile away, about 8 stops along the route nearer the city it only costs £5.20. At which of the 8 intermediate stops does the fare actually change? There’s no indication on the bus stops or in the timetable. Could I actually just walk one stop along the route out of my village and save £2.10? Without asking a bus driver there is no way of knowing.

Over the years fare structures have become very coarse. Whereas 30 yrs ago there were stages every 1/2 mile or so nowadays, as you say, a fare stage can be many miles... as to your question "where does the fare stage change?" on rural/ interurban routes the stages are usually each village or every other village... as to the boundary well that is at the beginning of the named village so if the stages are eg Upper somewhere, Middle Somewhere and Lower Somewhere then the fares are charged according to the village. eg if you get on at Upper Somewhere and go to Middle somewhere you will be charged between those 2 villages... if however you get on and ask for eg Doggy Hotel between Middle and Lower Somewhere you will be charged to go to Lower Somewhere as you are getting off AFTER Middle Somewhere.

 

[Typhoon]

Over the years fare structures have become very coarse. Whereas 30 yrs ago there were stages every 1/2 mile or so nowadays, as you say, a fare stage can be many miles... as to your question "where does the fare stage change?" on rural/ interurban routes the stages are usually each village or every other village... as to the boundary well that is at the beginning of the named village so if the stages are eg Upper somewhere, Middle Somewhere and Lower Somewhere then the fares are charged according to the village. eg if you get on at Upper Somewhere and go to Middle somewhere you will be charged between those 2 villages... if however you get on and ask for eg Doggy Hotel between Middle and Lower Somewhere you will be charged to go to Lower Somewhere as you are getting off AFTER Middle Somewhere.

I suspect this might be because of changes in the industry - the bus garage is probably no longer in your nearest town, the driver probably now lives even further away, asking for (say) the Doggy Hotel is lost on the driver because it closed five years ago and has been converted into flats called Husky House so when you say that it is the second turning after you leave Middle Somewhere the driver knows what to enter into his machine. The stop is actually called 'The Larches' after the local road but locals still call it Bottom Lane which was what it was called before a developer persuaded the local council to change it.

 

[Deerfold]

I don't have a problem with Zonal fares in principal. It's the ones that assume everyone want to travel to one central location/area that annoy me.

For example lots of the Stagecoach companies have a Megarider and a Megarider Plus Zone. If I ONLY want to travel in the area between the Megarider boundary and areas in the Plus area then I need to buy the whole Plus ticket, which is a lot more expensive.

As most of these networks are on a Hub/Spoke forumla, you could end up paying up to double that of people in the Megarider area just to use one route between two places in the area only covered by the plus ticket. That is simply unfair and off-putting for non users.

The only area I know that caters for this scenario is Oxfordshire with the Megarider County which is not valid in the Oxford city area.

Leicester has an outer and inner zone. You can buy a ticket for either or both - and one that covers travel much further.

https://www.arrivabus.co.uk/globala...riva-midlands-zoneone-zonetwo-zoneplusweb.pdf

 

[carlberry]

Most places outside the UK either use flat fares or coarse zonal fare systems, both which are easy to sell tickets for and work out what the fare is in advance. This means that drivers do not need to be involved in fare collection, and therefore mean a faster journey. The traditional stage fare system still used in the UK means that drivers still need to waste time selling tickets.

I don't understand how a flat fare or coarse zonal fare system means that drivers don't need to be involved in fare collection? Without travel is free or all ticketing is off bus (neither of which depend on a flat fare or coarse zonal fare system) then drivers still need to collect the fare.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I don't understand how a flat fare or coarse zonal fare system means that drivers don't need to be involved in fare collection? Without travel is free or all ticketing is off bus (neither of which depend on a flat fare or coarse zonal fare system) then drivers still need to collect the fare.

It doesn't. But the less "stages" on a farechart means less time spent on selling tickets... I remember many yrs ago getting on a LC 321 at Luton.. the fare chart covered multiple A4 sheets

 

[radamfi]

I don't understand how a flat fare or coarse zonal fare system means that drivers don't need to be involved in fare collection? Without travel is free or all ticketing is off bus (neither of which depend on a flat fare or coarse zonal fare system) then drivers still need to collect the fare.

What I mean is they don't *have* to be involved in fare collection if the passenger already knows what the fare is, and therefore can buy a single ticket for that price off the bus. In such a scenario the operator has the option of open boarding.

 

[transmanche]

I don't understand how a flat fare or coarse zonal fare system means that drivers don't need to be involved in fare collection? Without travel is free or all ticketing is off bus (neither of which depend on a flat fare or coarse zonal fare system) then drivers still need to collect the fare.

Drivers on TfL routes, the largest bus network in the country and accounting for the majority of passenger journeys, are not involved in fare collection.

Plenty of other systems can remove the driver from fare collection, or at least drastically reduce their involvement in it. Flat fare routes with fareboxes. Buses with Automatic Fare Collection - here's one from the 1960s, complete with turnstiles!

But the big advantage of flat fare systems - even with driver involvement - is that it speeds up boarding times.

 

[carlberry]

What I mean is they don't *have* to be involved in fare collection if the passenger already knows what the fare is, and therefore can buy a single ticket for that price off the bus. In such a scenario the operator has the option of open boarding.

Off bus ticketing is completely different from the difference between a coarse or flat fare system!

 

[carlberry]

Drivers on TfL routes, the largest bus network in the country and accounting for the majority of passenger journeys, are not involved in fare collection.

Which is off bus ticketing!

 

[big all]

its quite handy on tfl second or subsequent buses within the hour for free
so a 10 min bus ride 25- 30 mins shopping and return for £1.50
redhill to elephant and castle by train about 25 miles £12.30 off peak day return from the station walking each end a total jouney off about an hour
same journey by bus 405 to croydon 50 mins 468 77mins so just over 2hr journey for 1.50
return cost £3 as its after the hour boarding the second bus so £12.30 and 2hr train journey or £4.50 for over 4 hours on a bus for a saving off around £7. 80

 

[radamfi]

Off bus ticketing is completely different from the difference between a coarse or flat fare system!

But off-bus ticketing is a lot more difficult if you are using a stage-based system. In the 80s, GMPTE and WYPTE managed to implement the ClipperCard and Saverstrip systems where a stage-based fare system was in place, but you still had to know what the fare was in advance, otherwise you would have had to ask the driver, slowing things down.

 

[Deerfold]

But off-bus ticketing is a lot more difficult if you are using a stage-based system. In the 80s, GMPTE and WYPTE managed to implement the ClipperCard and Saverstrip systems where a stage-based fare system was in place, but you still had to know what the fare was in advance, otherwise you would have had to ask the driver, slowing things down.

Yes, handy for regular travellers - less so for random trips. Although WYPTE also had the off-peak maximum fare of (for a long time) 30p, so any trip of more than a couple of miles would be that flat-fare between 0930 and 1530 and after 1800. GMPTE had a flat fare Clippercard for concessionary fares (both Senior Citizens and youngsters).

Having to ask the driver really slowed things down, as those interacting with the driver boarded on the left, those Ker-chinging a Saverstrip boarded on the right. Drivers could clip a saverstrip, but there was no printed evidence of which journey had been clipped.

 

[Deerfold]

same journey by bus 405 to croydon 50 mins 468 77mins so just over 2hr journey for 1.50
return cost £3 as its after the hour boarding the second bus so £12.30 and 2hr train journey or £4.50 for over 4 hours on a bus for a saving off around £7. 80

And by that point you've capped, so can spend the rest of the day travelling by bus if you want.

 

[transmanche]

Which is off bus ticketing!

Off-bus ticketing implies you have to do something specific to buy a ticket before boarding (e.g. using a ticket machine, buying a ticket from a sales outlet, etc.).

I don't see how tapping your contactless payment card on the reader can be described as 'off-bus' ticketing.

 

[big all]

And by that point you've capped, so can spend the rest of the day travelling by bus if you want.

ok i dont fully understand how this works but think a 12.50 ish daily cap applies within tfl usage
my choice off rail was cash sale so no direct connect to oyster or contactless payment so i think woulnd be on the system so the 4.50 would be within the system but the national rail would not be ??